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  #1  
Old 12-10-2019, 06:28 PM
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Cool Are staggered wheels just for looks?

Are staggered wheels just for looks? Is there any evidence that a staggered setup improves handling/performance/traction/acceleration in any BMW?
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Old 12-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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What are you looking for here? There are several articles if you do a web search. Are you looking for a specific answer because it depends on the car and what you're looking for. There are benefits, but those go with my previous statement. I think staggered setups almost always look better IMO.
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Old 12-11-2019, 10:21 AM
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Just some healthy debate. I own an E60 and personally don't see the point.
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Arras View Post
Are staggered wheels just for looks? Is there any evidence that a staggered setup improves handling/performance/traction/acceleration in any BMW?
Just for looks. Physics denies any evidence for improvement.
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Old 12-11-2019, 11:36 AM
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I had read plenty of evidence that wider tires improve traction by creating a larger contact surface, certainly this applies to the Zed even if just on the rear... But I don't see it as necessary for a good DD even with spirited driving tossed in. I opted for the 4 point rotation benefit on a square set up.
Now if tracking a car - well that's a different story.
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Old 12-11-2019, 03:33 PM
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I had read plenty of evidence that wider tires improve traction by creating a larger contact surface...
Not in snow. In snow, you're better off with a narrower tire.
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Old 12-11-2019, 04:57 PM
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Not in snow. In snow, you're better off with a narrower tire.
I'm sorry - was the original question in snow? I missed that.
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Old 12-11-2019, 06:37 PM
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Wider rear tires biases the car toward understeer, and diminishes oversteer. They also help in drag races and accelerating out of turns. Oversteer will bite you when you're trail breaking into a turn: romping on the brakes before starting the turn, and then gradually easing off the brakes as you turn the steering wheel. Braking lightens up the rear end, and if it gets too light... oversteer. A little bit of gradual oversteer can actually let you rotate the car through the first half of a turn faster. But, there's a fine line between fast and "oh, ****."

Oversteer is bad because the car ends up pointing in a different direction than it's actually going. But "snap oversteer" is really bad. I read somewhere that BMW's shift to staggered set-ups was more at the behest of their product liability attorneys than their engineers. Juries look at a picture of a car with the front half demolished and think "That guy was a dumbass." But, when they look at a picture of a car with the back half demolished, they think "There must be something wrong with that car." Back before all those on-board computers, Porsche had a lot of lawsuits about their cars leaving the road sideways or backwards. The king of oversteer was the older Porsche 911. But, with computers (PSM, Porsche Stability Management, a.k.a. Please Save Me), a wider rear track and wider rear tires, the newer 911's don't want to kill you. Even 911's are now biased toward understeer.

I friend of mine was a state trooper, and he said that there was a real problem with Mustang cop cars back in the early 90's. Most of them involved in crashes left the road backwards, usually on off ramps. I was chasing a civilian Mustang GT in my '92 Nissan Sentra SE-R, nothing crazy, just "brisk" driving. He took an on ramp a little too fast, and the car rotated around 90-degrees. The best part of this was that the B13 Sentra's had a "VW horn." I couldn't resists giving him a "beep-beep" as he was sitting there sideways on the on ramp.

The early E36 M3's had a square set-up and a full size spare tire. LCI added 200cc's of engine displacement and staggered tires.

I went from an E46 M3 to a F10 535i Luxury Line with absolutely miserable Goodyear LS2 RFT's, and a square set-up. The first time I hustled to catch a yellow light while making a left turn with the 535i, the back end controllably kicked out as I was tightening up on the turn before the apex, and I really wasn't trying to do that. A set of Michelin PSS's (still with a square set-up) fixed the problem.

One of the benefits if a square set-up is that you can do a four-tire rotation pattern and wear out all four tires (or five tires in an early E46 M3) at the same time.
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  #9  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:29 PM
targaone targaone is offline
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Wider tires dont really have larger contact patches.. just different shapes... the amount of contact stays rather fixed from my reading.
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  #10  
Old 12-12-2019, 06:48 PM
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I'm sorry - was the original question in snow? I missed that.
No, but you made a broad statement.
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Old 12-12-2019, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Just for looks. Physics denies any evidence for improvement.
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Originally Posted by targaone View Post
Wider tires dont really have larger contact patches.. just different shapes... the amount of contact stays rather fixed from my reading.
Both wrong, if skinny tires were better, every racing car or bike would be on the narrowest rubber they could get.
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Old 12-13-2019, 05:53 AM
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yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Arras View Post
Are staggered wheels just for looks? Is there any evidence that a staggered setup improves handling/performance/traction/acceleration in any BMW?
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2019, 05:54 AM
jaye944 jaye944 is offline
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i drive both, staggered OEM, summer , boxed winters, no difference
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Old 12-13-2019, 07:40 AM
scootr scootr is offline
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Do a google search - read from experts.
This thread is filled with misinformation.
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  #15  
Old 12-13-2019, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by scootr View Post
Do a google search - read from experts. This thread is filled with misinformation.
Gullah Bull. G00gle is so full of misinformation that it sells lies as truth and Scooter is credulous.
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(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

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Old 12-13-2019, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by scootr View Post
I had read plenty of evidence that wider tires improve traction by creating a larger contact surface, ...
Laws of dry friction
The elementary property of sliding (kinetic) friction were discovered by experiment in the 15th to 18th centuries and were expressed as three empirical laws:

Amontons' First Law: The force of friction is directly proportional to the applied load.
Amontons' Second Law: The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.
Coulomb's Law of Friction: Kinetic friction is independent of the sliding velocity.

The only thing that matters is the coefficient of friction (Rubber-concrete = 1) and the load.

Perhaps that theoretical minimum for a STEM-literate human is the knowledge in the much faulted Wikipedia. Read it and its reference citations.
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Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
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Old 12-13-2019, 11:30 AM
jaye944 jaye944 is offline
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Don't mess with the Dougster !

Ever wonder where wikipedia writers get there info from.... yup the Dougster


Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Laws of dry friction
The elementary property of sliding (kinetic) friction were discovered by experiment in the 15th to 18th centuries and were expressed as three empirical laws:

Amontons' First Law: The force of friction is directly proportional to the applied load.
Amontons' Second Law: The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.
Coulomb's Law of Friction: Kinetic friction is independent of the sliding velocity.

The only thing that matters is the coefficient of friction (Rubber-concrete = 1) and the load.

Perhaps that theoretical minimum for a STEM-literate human is the knowledge in the much faulted Wikipedia. Read it and its reference citations.
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  #18  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:31 AM
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I am a Wikimedia editor, you can be too.
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Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
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  #19  
Old 12-13-2019, 11:59 AM
karzrus karzrus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Laws of dry friction
The elementary property of sliding (kinetic) friction were discovered by experiment in the 15th to 18th centuries and were expressed as three empirical laws:

Amontons' First Law: The force of friction is directly proportional to the applied load.
Amontons' Second Law: The force of friction is independent of the apparent area of contact.
Coulomb's Law of Friction: Kinetic friction is independent of the sliding velocity.

The only thing that matters is the coefficient of friction (Rubber-concrete = 1) and the load.

Perhaps that theoretical minimum for a STEM-literate human is the knowledge in the much faulted Wikipedia. Read it and its reference citations.
Must not just be simple friction when applied in acceleration then, as a taller wider tire beats the narrow short ones on the exact same car. Only have to look to the drag strip to prove it. If narrow was better everyone would run them on the back same as front to reduce rolling resistance and aerodynamic drag.
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