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E46 M3 (2001-2006)

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  #26  
Old 05-30-2005, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
The M3 got that rack back when the regular E46 was ALSO 3.5 turns lock to lock. The CSL rack is only very slightly more direct, and most people who have it report that they can't tell the difference.

The reason they left it in the E46 M3 is simple:
The M3 never got the "Ultimate Parking Machine" rack, so there was no real need to change it. Again, I also suspect that the Compact rack doesn't fit.
Nick, have you tried the ZCP yet?
I test drove it and the steering felt better than an 04 with 19" rims. It was more direct and had better feedback all around. I did not care for the steering wheel itself though.
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  #27  
Old 05-30-2005, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerguy
Nick, have you tried the ZCP yet?
I test drove it and the steering felt better than an 04 with 19" rims. It was more direct and had better feedback all around. I did not care for the steering wheel itself though.
Nope. The problem is that there are so many different variables, that the comparison is pretty meaningless. It's amazing how quickly BMW suspension bushings get sloppy, and this will have a pretty dramatic effect on perceived feel.
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  #28  
Old 05-30-2005, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Nope. The problem is that there are so many different variables, that the comparison is pretty meaningless. It's amazing how quickly BMW suspension bushings get sloppy, and this will have a pretty dramatic effect on perceived feel.
The 04 was new with under 100 miles on it.
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  #29  
Old 05-31-2005, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
It's amazing how quickly BMW suspension bushings get sloppy, and this will have a pretty dramatic effect on perceived feel.
What are you talking about? And what are you comparing this sloppyness to? Every BMW I have driven has felt the same with 10000 miles on the suspension as the day the suspension was installed.
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  #30  
Old 05-31-2005, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkF1
What are you talking about? And what are you comparing this sloppyness to? Every BMW I have driven has felt the same with 10000 miles on the suspension as the day the suspension was installed.
Then you can't feel the car, or you're deceiving yourself. Plain and simple.

Shock dyno testing shows that OEM M3 shocks lose 50% of their damping in 10,000 miles. And that's street driving.

I have yet to find a set of OEM control arm bushings that don't start getting sloppy within 5K. My rear trailing arm bushings TORE at 15,000 miles.
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  #31  
Old 06-01-2005, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
My rear trailing arm bushings TORE at 15,000 miles.
Would that be under track use???

The suspension has gotten pretty mooshy at about 13k..And a set of coil overs are being heavily considered in the very near future...But I do think that the car has gained better traction with suspension wear, but with entirely too much body roll in slow hard corners, for my taste...
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  #32  
Old 06-01-2005, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Then you can't feel the car, or you're deceiving yourself. Plain and simple.

Shock dyno testing shows that OEM M3 shocks lose 50% of their damping in 10,000 miles. And that's street driving.

I have yet to find a set of OEM control arm bushings that don't start getting sloppy within 5K. My rear trailing arm bushings TORE at 15,000 miles.
Show me a Shock Dyno of it then. You cant just spout statistics without proof.
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  #33  
Old 06-01-2005, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkF1
Show me a Shock Dyno of it then. You cant just spout statistics without proof.
I'll see if I can get a copy, but frankly, I don't particularly care what you think. The fact that you think the suspension doesn't wear in a BMW is proof enough that you aren't sensitive enough to the way the car drives for it to matter to you.
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  #34  
Old 06-01-2005, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LinkF1
Show me a Shock Dyno of it then. You cant just spout statistics without proof.

He's not lying. I believe GC has the dyno chart somewhere on their website.
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  #35  
Old 06-01-2005, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgbone
Would that be under track use???

The suspension has gotten pretty mooshy at about 13k..And a set of coil overs are being heavily considered in the very near future...But I do think that the car has gained better traction with suspension wear, but with entirely too much body roll in slow hard corners, for my taste...
Yes, the RTABs tore so quickly because of track use. They will wear out relatively quickly with a moderately aggressive driver, however. More to the point, the stock ones flex a lot when new.
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  #36  
Old 06-01-2005, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Then you can't feel the car, or you're deceiving yourself. Plain and simple.

Shock dyno testing shows that OEM M3 shocks lose 50% of their damping in 10,000 miles. And that's street driving.

I have yet to find a set of OEM control arm bushings that don't start getting sloppy within 5K. My rear trailing arm bushings TORE at 15,000 miles.
Wow.... thats not good, what kind of shocks do they use?
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  #37  
Old 06-01-2005, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerguy
Wow.... thats not good, what kind of shocks do they use?
Sachs-Boge. One rumor that I've heard is that it isn't their fault, though. This rumor states that BMW insisted on using an extremely low-grade shock outside of its specified capacity.
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  #38  
Old 06-01-2005, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Sachs-Boge. One rumor that I've heard is that it isn't their fault, though. This rumor states that BMW insisted on using an extremely low-grade shock outside of its specified capacity.
INteresting. For a regular sport-suspension 3 series, what brand of shock absorber would you recommend to get a factory-like ride but w/ better durability?
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  #39  
Old 06-01-2005, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robg
INteresting. For a regular sport-suspension 3 series, what brand of shock absorber would you recommend to get a factory-like ride but w/ better durability?
Konis. Preferably top adjustable rears.

It's best, actually, if you get double adjustable Konis. The S/As have less compression damping than stock, and it's nice to be able to adjust that to where you like it.
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  #40  
Old 06-01-2005, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
Sachs-Boge. One rumor that I've heard is that it isn't their fault, though. This rumor states that BMW insisted on using an extremely low-grade shock outside of its specified capacity.
So, you make the statement that BMW has selected a shock absorber for the M3 that is under-specified for the application? You've made a lot of statements about quantitative measurements. I'm not disputing that the shocks wear nor that the stock bushings are more flexible than one would like for race applications. This is a tradeoff of comfort versus performance. To say that BMW deliberately choses to run a component out of the manufacturers range of usage is a serious charge.
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  #41  
Old 06-01-2005, 08:06 PM
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I have heard this from more than one source.

Actually the E46 M3 has higher dampening rates than most other BMWs. Sachs made a shock and BMW didn't want to go with that model of shock, so they speced a lower line model, which while it will provide the dampening rate, it will not maintain that dampening rate over a long period. Why did they do that? Not sure, but one immediately suspects cost was a factor.

It the shock running outside its spec range of dampening? Nope. But will it maintain that dampening rate? Nope. Is this a crime? Nope, more like standard practice in the auto world. Very few stock shocks are good for more than 20 - 25K miles. The old BMW standard of 80K miles was more than just about anybody else. Our Jeep Grand Cherokee stock Up Country shocks were shot in about 10 - 15K miles. A set of Bilsteins did WONDERS.

And since BMW won't warranty shocks without leakage, they are pretty safe. I guess you could pull the shocks new and put them on a shock dyno, then pull them every so often and once the dampening rate gets below x% lower than new, you could force them to give you new crappy shocks.

A set of Konis will do the trick. The top adjusting rears are nice, but for most people the basic standard single adjustable Konis will provide a similar to stock ride, with longer life.

I don't know if Bilstein makes a Touring shock for the E46 M3, but that is their stock replacement shock when it comes to dampening rate. The HD and Sport models are a good bit higher dampening rates.
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  #42  
Old 06-01-2005, 08:15 PM
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Terry, what you are saying is fine, but it's not what Nick has said. You in fact say that the shock is within spec(provides damping rate), it just doesn't stay there. It wears out. Forgetting the superlatives, Nick is saying that it's "outside it's specified capacity."

We can be disappointed that the shocks don't last as long as we'd like, but it's another thing entirely to say that they are not up to the requirement in the first place.
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  #43  
Old 06-02-2005, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveT
Terry, what you are saying is fine, but it's not what Nick has said. You in fact say that the shock is within spec(provides damping rate), it just doesn't stay there. It wears out. Forgetting the superlatives, Nick is saying that it's "outside it's specified capacity."

We can be disappointed that the shocks don't last as long as we'd like, but it's another thing entirely to say that they are not up to the requirement in the first place.
Actually, we're saying the exact same thing. BMW picked a shock that can't handle the damping rates they wanted, apparently against Sachs' advice.

I'm not sure how one can ever say that a shock that loses a significant percentage of its damping capacity within the break in period can be called "in spec."
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  #44  
Old 06-02-2005, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Nick325xiT 5spd
I'll see if I can get a copy, but frankly, I don't particularly care what you think. The fact that you think the suspension doesn't wear in a BMW is proof enough that you aren't sensitive enough to the way the car drives for it to matter to you.
I never said that the suspension doesn't wear... I said that after 10000 miles which is less than one year of driving the shocks feel virtually new on every BMW I have driven and every time I have replaced them you cant feel much of a difference until about 20000 miles in my experience... but it is in no way 'sloppy' as you suggest.

But that is for every other BMW... it seems that the M3 is different in this respect for some reason. Sloppyness at or before 10000 miles is very odd and seemed very much like a outlying statistic, sorry for being skeptical of a very bold statement concerning the endurance of the shocks.
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  #45  
Old 06-02-2005, 03:37 PM
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Made to order M3s?

Is it possible to have an M3 made to order as it is customarily done with the other E46s?
Thanks.
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  #46  
Old 06-02-2005, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by bmwphd
Is it possible to have an M3 made to order as it is customarily done with the other E46s?
Thanks.
Do you mean order it with the options you want(within reason)? If so yes, most of us did that.
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  #47  
Old 06-02-2005, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LinkF1
I never said that the suspension doesn't wear... I said that after 10000 miles which is less than one year of driving the shocks feel virtually new on every BMW I have driven and every time I have replaced them you cant feel much of a difference until about 20000 miles in my experience... but it is in no way 'sloppy' as you suggest.

But that is for every other BMW... it seems that the M3 is different in this respect for some reason. Sloppyness at or before 10000 miles is very odd and seemed very much like a outlying statistic, sorry for being skeptical of a very bold statement concerning the endurance of the shocks.

Yeap, the newer BMWs seem to be like this. Nick had a similar experience on his 325XiT previous to his M3. But you CAN feel the difference in new shocks in the 10 - 12K miles range on E46 M3s.
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  #48  
Old 06-02-2005, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveT
Terry, what you are saying is fine, but it's not what Nick has said. You in fact say that the shock is within spec(provides damping rate), it just doesn't stay there. It wears out. Forgetting the superlatives, Nick is saying that it's "outside it's specified capacity."

We can be disappointed that the shocks don't last as long as we'd like, but it's another thing entirely to say that they are not up to the requirement in the first place.
Well it is a matter of perspective. Yes, they rovide the dampening rate, but not for very long. And not like older BMWs which the stock shocks were good for 80K miles or so.

If the BMW spec is X dampening rate for 10K miles, then they are fine.
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  #49  
Old 06-03-2005, 06:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Do you mean order it with the options you want(within reason)? If so yes, most of us did that.
The M3 seems to be pretty awesome with the standard equipment, especially with the 6 speed manual; not that I tested it but I imagine it must be something else. Because an E46 M3 would be such a treat to myself, I do not want a lot of people to drive it (such as test drive it from a dealer's lot) before I get it...
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  #50  
Old 06-08-2005, 06:41 PM
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2.7 lock on ZCP

Hi,

The steering is improved on the ZCP. It's 2.7 lock to lock as opposed to 3.5 on standard M3. I have an '05 M3 ZCP and I love the steering feel. It's has a heavy feel as did my '02 530i.


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