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  #26  
Old 01-11-2019, 04:50 PM
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Got it, so mor...
I think NHTSA numbers are hard data, no opinions there. It is not just one score. It is deceleration and forces on different body parts.

Problem is you don't seem to understand physics. If you didn't understand the difference based on watching those videos, there is no point for me to explain it in more details.
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  #27  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:02 PM
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The bottom set is absolutely gorgeous
I agree, it has that clean minimalist ala Dieter Rams / Braun school of functionalist industrial design.

I have an E36 with this panel right in my garage so I'm a bit biased but I feel this is the most timeless of these designs.
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  #28  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
I think NHTSA numbers are hard data, no opinions there. It is not just one score. It is deceleration and forces on different body parts.

Problem is you don't seem to understand physics. If you didn't understand the difference based on watching those videos, there is no point for me to explain it in more details.
Yes the NHTSA numbers are data in a 100+ page PDF. My point is their conclusions of their data directly contradict your conclusions, however you have no qualifications that enable you to assert a contradictory conclusion.

I understand exactly what you're trying to say with your youtube videos, it's not a matter of not understanding physics. Your conclusion from that video is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
The car looks more severe after the crash however the passengers suffer less injury.
You provided no evidence to come to this conclusion and NHTSA's conclusion from the NCAP Combined Crashworthiness Ratings is the direct opposite.

All I'm asking you is to show the exact data from NHTSA for both cars and how you came to the above conclusion and why you're qualified to make an opposite one.
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  #29  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by paranoidroid View Post
You provided no evidence to come to this conclusion and NHTSA's conclusion from the NCAP Combined Crashworthiness Ratings is the direct opposite.

All I'm asking you is to show the exact data from NHTSA for both cars and how you came to the above conclusion and why you're qualified to make an opposite one.
My opinion is not different than NHTSA rating. Not sure where you are getting that from.

Look at the stars. Side collision, all 5 stars. frontal collision: BMW has 4 star for the driver, everything else is 5 stars.

I have mentioned exactly that: "Protection in order starting with the best: Model 3 driver; BMW F30 passenger; Model 3 passenger; BMW F30 driver;"

To see the difference between 5 star and 5 star make the effort and look up the numbers in those 100 page documents.
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  #30  
Old 01-11-2019, 05:43 PM
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My opinion is not different than NHTSA rating. Not sure where you are getting that from.
What I'm asking is data and qualified analysis to back up these claims:

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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
There is an issue with Tesla's design..
Body-on-frame cars don't have crumple zones and therefore they aren't very good at protecting the passengers.
The car looks more severe after the crash however the passengers suffer less injury.
If you agree with NHTSA's conclusions then really you are trying to argue minutia of two very safe cars that somehow (in your typical FUD) that Tesla is still less safe than others. Which is really pointless to anyone reading and trying to decide between these two cars, but if you do make those claims then I'm going to ask you to back that up with real evidence and real analysis (not some Youtube videos and some armchair quarterbacking).

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
To see the difference between 5 star and 5 star make the effort and look up the numbers in those 100 page documents.
The data from the 100 page docs is deduced into a combined crashworthiness score and probability of injury by taking the weighted average of the Relative Risk Scores (RRS) in front, side and rollover crashes. Both the Model 3 and the Model X in your example score far better than their counterparts. NHTSA's conclusion from their data don't support your claims above.

If you make specific claims the onus is on you to provide evidence and qualified analysis, not on me.
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  #31  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by paranoidroid View Post
What I'm asking is data and qualified analysis to back up these claims:

If you agree with NHTSA's conclusions then really you are trying to argue minutia of two very safe cars that somehow (in your typical FUD) that Tesla is still less safe than others. Which is really pointless to anyone reading and trying to decide between these two cars, but if you do make those claims then I'm going to ask you to back that up with real evidence and real analysis (not some Youtube videos and some armchair quarterbacking).
It takes too much time to go into details so I won't.

But just very quickly:
Tesla Model X and S batteries extend into the area of the rear section of the front wheels. Therefore the front section has limited length for crumple zone. So an ICE 5 series is equally good in frontal collision at 35 mph than the 2 models mentioned above although an EV could do a much better design and Tesla has fixed this problem for the Model 3.
And why I say S and X aren't as good as a 5 series in frontal collision is because at higher than 35mph frontal crash the impact will reach the rigid body frame on the S and X while the 5 series has a little more crumple zone. Plus if an S and X hits a tree at 50+ mph in the middle, the battery goes on fire.

Tesla Model 3 in frontal collision is very good, as mentioned above.
Side pole collision is slightly worse at 20 mph already compared to BMW F30 however the big difference comes at higher speeds. If one hits a tree sideways at 40 mph, and the impact is not at the drivers door, the Model 3 driver will suffer more injuries on the hips and spine plus there is a high chance of battery fire. (If it is the drivers door, then it doesn't matter, both drivers are dead.)
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  #32  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:14 PM
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Why I'm angry about about this design is: all they had to do is just make the battery double layer so the total area would be smaller and they could have made a safer car. But they decided against it. Maybe they wanted a lower center of gravity or better cooling or I don't know why.

See the Model S layout. Model 3 is somewhat better. Compare it to the Jaguar I-pace layout.
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  #33  
Old 01-11-2019, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
It takes too much time to go into details so I won't.

But just very quickly:
Tesla Model X and S batteries extend into the area of the rear section of the front wheels. Therefore the front section has limited length for crumple zone. So an ICE 5 series is equally good in frontal collision at 35 mph than the 2 models mentioned above although an EV could do a much better design and Tesla has fixed this problem for the Model 3.
And why I say S and X aren't as good as a 5 series in frontal collision is because at higher than 35mph frontal crash the impact will reach the rigid body frame on the S and X while the 5 series has a little more crumple zone. Plus if an S and X hits a tree at 50+ mph in the middle, the battery goes on fire.

Tesla Model 3 in frontal collision is very good, as mentioned above.
Side pole collision is slightly worse at 20 mph already compared to BMW F30 however the big difference comes at higher speeds. If one hits a tree sideways at 40 mph, and the impact is not at the drivers door, the Model 3 driver will suffer more injuries on the hips and spine plus there is a high chance of battery fire. (If it is the drivers door, then it doesn't matter, both drivers are dead.)
What I was originally asking (8 posts up) was qualified analysis. This can be from NHTA data reduction with their Relative Risk Scores in the specific areas and circumstances you're referencing (presenting the specific data) or referencing a statement or analysis by an engineer or consultant who has the credentials to use the NHTA data or their own vehicle structure engineering experience and come to these conclusions.

Everything you just said above is just pure armchair quarterbacking and no one reading it should take it as anything more than mere speculated opinion (that we already have more than enough of on the internet).

If you could truly armchair quarterback physics like this then no one would ever need to run real-world crash tests and extensive data logging in the first place. Or have the need to hire qualified expensive engineers in specific fields of body & structural engineering.
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  #34  
Old 01-20-2019, 04:30 AM
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but I think the Tesla movement is resonating with me
Forget the 'movement' and focus on the car.

No sound, no soul. The Tesla3's interior is too poorly designed & finished for that kind of money. Recharging can be an issue, especially when there are frequently some line-ups at recharging stations in metropolitan areas. And we don't know if this company will be there in 3 years; it is still in very bad shape.

And there are a few decades ahead to burn all that available oil.

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  #35  
Old 01-20-2019, 05:00 AM
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Tesla just sent layoff notices to over 3,000 employees after having done the same last summer in an attempt to save the company. Model X and S prices have been reduced and with the state tax incentives reduced, Tesla is preparing to sweeten the deals on the Model 3. Profits have fallen after the peak Q3 of "18 and the big established car makers are pulling out all stops to get their share of the EV market in the very near future.
In anticipation of the arrival of all the competition, the company is now trying to enter more markets, especially in Europe and Asia. Time will tell I guess, but I don't see how circumstances in the near future will benefit the company's financial situation.
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  #36  
Old 01-31-2019, 06:40 PM
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Slowly, the bloom is coming off the rose:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/31/...-demand-china/

Focus on this quote from the article:

"This is a strong indication that demand in the U.S. for both the mid-range and long-range Model 3 versions has largely been exhausted, and the company is still working through the estimated ~6.8k of unsold Model 3 inventory," Cowen analysts said."

The early buyers in the US have all but been exhausted now, they must have had huge numbers of cancellations of people who put down early deposits, 6.8K cars are actually unsold right now. They have the backlogs in Europe and China to cushion them.
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  #37  
Old 02-01-2019, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Speaking of SAFETY.

Model 3 is good in frontal collision (at least for the driver). However the F30 offers better protection in a side pole crash (for example sliding into a tree or a pole) plus there is a chance that the battery goes on fire in this kind of accident.
Even the frontal collision isn't that simple. Protection in order starting with the best:
Model 3 driver; BMW F30 passenger; Model 3 passenger; BMW F30 driver;
Can you point to a single case of a Model 3 catching fire after an accident or otherwise?
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  #38  
Old 02-01-2019, 05:24 PM
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Can you point to a single case of a Model 3 catching fire after an accident or otherwise?
Front section of the Model 3 got fixed compared to Model S so I don't expect issues on the front.

For the Model S on the side the battery got damaged at the 20mph side pole test. See attached image. The damage just reached the cells so at higher speed the cells will get crushed.

Now for the Model 3, they strengthened the sills, but made the battery case lighter. Distance between the cells and the outer side of the sill remained the same (crumple zone). Model 3 battery doesn't have the structural strength which the Model S has.

Due to the strengthened sills the Model 3 battery didn't suffer any damage in the 20mph side pole crash test, but it's just a matter of speed when the sills will give up. Also this strengthened sill is the one causes more injuries in this type of crash.

So you are right, so far no fires but it's just a matter of time until someone slides into a tree sideways at (my guess is) 35-45mph.
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  #39  
Old 02-01-2019, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Front section of the Model 3 got fixed compared to Model S so I don't expect issues on the front.

For the Model S on the side the battery got damaged at the 20mph side pole test. See attached image. The damage just reached the cells so at higher speed the cells will get crushed.

Now for the Model 3, they strengthened the sills, but made the battery case lighter. Distance between the cells and the outer side of the sill remained the same (crumple zone). Model 3 battery doesn't have the structural strength which the Model S has.

Due to the strengthened sills the Model 3 battery didn't suffer any damage in the 20mph side pole crash test, but it's just a matter of speed when the sills will give up. Also this strengthened sill is the one causes more injuries in this type of crash.

So you are right, so far no fires but it's just a matter of time until someone slides into a tree sideways at (my guess is) 35-45mph.
Now go find out how many BMWs caught fire in the past 18 months.

I will wait.
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  #40  
Old 02-01-2019, 08:14 PM
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Now go find out how many BMWs caught fire in the past 18 months.

I will wait.
You meant gasoline BMWs, right? Because none of the BEV i3s got on fire. Tesla has the highest BEV fire rate. There is only one known case of Nissan Leaf fire for example out of 350k cars sold.
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  #41  
Old 02-01-2019, 09:32 PM
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Bmw's and many other car brands do catch fire BUT numbers and stats show the correct picture. Let's not join the conspiracy of ignorance that masquerades as common sense for a moment.
1) Those Bmw's burnt cover a production period of anything from one to two decades which means anything between 15 to 30 million units.
Tesla on OTOH, has made a TINY fraction of that amount. (Cars burnt vs. total production ratio....do the maths)
2) And this is very important, Teslas are almost exclusively serviced by authorised service technicians which do what is correct where OTOH, Bmw's and every other car's mechanial and electrical systems are compromised by promising DIYers and yahoo mechanics.
3) When EV's burn, they burn for days. There are several cases where it proved very difficult to extinguish the battery which seemed to mysteriously self-reagnite.

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  #42  
Old 02-01-2019, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dio///M View Post
Bmw's and many other car brands do catch fire BUT numbers and stats show the correct picture. Let's not join the conspiracy of ignorance that masquerades as common sense for a moment.
1) Those Bmw's burned cover a production period of anything from one to two decades which means anything between 15 to 30 million units.
Tesla on OTOH, has made a TINY fraction of that amount. (Cars burnt vs. total production ratio....do the maths)
2) And this is very important, Teslas are almost exclusively serviced by authorised service technicians which do what is correct where OTOH, Bmw's and every other car's mechanial and electrical systems are compromised by promising DIYers and yahoo mechanics.
3) When EV's burn, they burn for days. There are several cases where it proved very difficult to extinguish the battery which seemed to mysteriously self-reagnite.
"do the maths". "BUT numbers and stats show the correct picture."

There is no data out there that shows Tesla is more likely to catch on fire than ICE per mile driven. Instead you hear about a Tesla fire in much much greater proportion.

#3, yes Lipo fire will burn to completion. So the fire crew is out longer than an ICE fire. There is a different process for fire crew to handle an electric car fire and keeps them out longer. However if it happens statistically less than with ICE as preliminary data shows it could still be a net win as there would be fewer deaths.
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