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  #76  
Old 02-21-2009, 10:52 AM
blau335 blau335 is offline
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
-How much boost are you getting, and where in the RPM band? We might be experiencing a similar problem.
Max boost is 5.5 ish at full throttle (I'm supposed to peak at 8), it plateaus (as in stops building completely) way to early, and even despite that im about a pound or two lower everywhere below that point as well. I have boost leaked the car several times and there are no leaks from the charge pipes.





This video demonstrates the building of boost at just enough throttle to keep the bypass closed but still way less then full reducing the engines CFM consumption which forces boost to build at that lower consumption rate.

It's a little strange I get the higher reading on the gauge as it's hooked up post throttle, and that zone should be lower pressure then pre throttle (where boost would normally build higher during part throttle and spike under a few situations)







The whole thing makes no sense at all and is driving me nuts. The only thing I can think of is something weird going on with the bypass which I don't suspect or somethings up with the supercharger clutch, which also makes no real sense.

The only other thing that might make sense is a huge leak post throttle bodies, but...



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  #77  
Old 02-21-2009, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by blau335 View Post
Max boost is 5.5 ish at full throttle (I'm supposed to peak at 8), it plateaus (as in stops building completely) way to early, and even despite that im about a pound or two lower everywhere below that point as well. I have boost leaked the car several times and there are no leaks from the charge pipes.





This video demonstrates the building of boost at just enough throttle to keep the bypass closed but still way less then full reducing the engines CFM consumption which forces boost to build at that lower consumption rate.

It's a little strange I get the higher reading on the gauge as it's hooked up post throttle, and that zone should be lower pressure then pre throttle (where boost would normally build higher during part throttle and spike under a few situations)







The whole thing makes no sense at all and is driving me nuts. The only thing I can think of is something weird going on with the bypass which I don't suspect or somethings up with the supercharger clutch, which also makes no real sense.

The only other thing that might make sense is a huge leak post throttle bodies, but...



-Congratulations, I think you and I have EXACTLY the same problem
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  #78  
Old 02-21-2009, 11:31 AM
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-Congratulations, I think you and I have EXACTLY the same problem
F-ing figures, I had a somewhat similar EWS problem too, mine only took one try though.

Have you spoken with Hans? Is he aware of your problem? I'm working with him ATM and he's suggested we try a new valve and manifold to throttle body hoses. But we have no solid ideas.

I just emailed him a few more ideas that are pretty crappy, but I have nothing else.

Quote:
A couple more but likely far fetched ideas:

Supercharger clutch? I'm sure the holding power is exponential as speed increases but it could be a possibility.

Crank case vent, the PCV on the z4ms and last year of M3s is different and has an additional line coming off it leading into the vacuum rail, maybe a source of a leak?

As mentioned before when boost leaking I have found that pressure comes out from the brake booster occasionally but not always, the sporadicness likely because of that electronic (presumably valve) on it switching? (on of these on the PCV too.)

If there is a leak it seems like it is post throttle bodys, and I severely doubt it but maybe the throttle housing to block seals?
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  #79  
Old 02-21-2009, 11:44 AM
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Guys- I posted this in Palantirion's other thread, but any chance of belt slippage? And can you try different spring rates or add a spacer to the bypass valve?

The good thing about a blower (as compared to a turbo) is that boost drop is usually something mechanical ...
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:49 AM
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I am waiting on Hans to reply to my last email.

Possible causes:
1) Belt slippage (although no fluids are anywhere near the belt).
2) Supercharger clutch slippage (can we lock the clutch?).
3) Bad bypass valve calibration (my red one that came from Vortech and the blue one from ESS show the same boost, although the blue one is louder )

Anything else?

p.s. In previous emails Hans told me that peak boost should be 8psi, but in another email AJ told me it should be 6.5psi. Maybe they are not on the same page?
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Old 02-21-2009, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I am waiting on Hans to reply to my last email.

Possible causes:
1) Belt slippage (although no fluids are anywhere near the belt).
2) Supercharger clutch slippage (can we lock the clutch?).
3) Bad bypass valve calibration (my red one that came from Vortech and the blue one from ESS show the same boost, although the blue one is louder )

Anything else?

p.s. In previous emails Hans told me that peak boost should be 8psi, but in another email AJ told me it should be 6.5psi. Maybe they are not on the same page?
They are both wrong, lul. It should be 7.5ish since you have the 500, I have the 525 so I'm around 8. Hans probably thinks you have the 525.

I don't think there's anyway the belt is slipping, like at all. The holding power is proportional to the size of the pulley, and these pulleys are Fing MASSIVE. On a little 80mm pulley maybe, but not a 155mm in your and 150mm in mine (keep in mind circumference increases faster then diameter, so double diameter is a lot more then double circumference)


And about the bypass one is likely calibrated to open at a higher pressure (hence the louderness, yes I just invented that word) but that wont change anything when you're full throttle, only the point where it opens as you're backing off the throttle.
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  #82  
Old 02-21-2009, 05:02 PM
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I asked AJ about the boost levels and some of the other questions and here was his response.

CFR500 raises to 6.5PSI at around 6K, then levels out. It can go a little more up towards redline, like +1PSI or so. But rated 6.5PSI should be reached in the 6-7K intervall.

CFR525 is +.5PSI on all specs.

The clutch will not slip. It is the extra HD Alpina clutch we use, it's bulletproof. Belt slippage will also never occur unless you drain the belt in oil.

Most likely boost gauge is ~1PSI off or there is a little leak somewhere in the pressure system. Check RWHP and see if it makes the rated power.

Regards,

Asbjorn
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  #83  
Old 02-21-2009, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by ROM3N View Post
I asked AJ about the boost levels and some of the other questions and here was his response.

CFR500 raises to 6.5PSI at around 6K, then levels out. It can go a little more up towards redline, like +1PSI or so. But rated 6.5PSI should be reached in the 6-7K intervall.

CFR525 is +.5PSI on all specs.

The clutch will not slip. It is the extra HD Alpina clutch we use, it's bulletproof. Belt slippage will also never occur unless you drain the belt in oil.

Most likely boost gauge is ~1PSI off or there is a little leak somewhere in the pressure system. Check RWHP and see if it makes the rated power.

Regards,

Asbjorn
Romen, watch the video, even if the gauge was off (which it isn't, I've compared it) there is no way that things are correct. It would be a waste of money to even think about dynoing the car in that situation.

Also, even if he says that about the pressures, I'm starring at an ESS dyno that says 8psi and around 430 wheel SAE.
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  #84  
Old 02-21-2009, 05:22 PM
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Oh and I'm also running 22-24+ degrees of timing which clearly indicates that boost is down from what it has been tuned for (IE mixture is so rich its providing complete knock suppression), and this is without meth on.
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  #85  
Old 02-21-2009, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by blau335 View Post
Oh and I'm also running 22-24+ degrees of timing which clearly indicates that boost is down from what it has been tuned for (IE mixture is so rich its providing complete knock suppression), and this is without meth on.
-I don't know if it matters, but I noticed that 1/2 way through my track day at Streets the insides of my exhaust tips were VERY sooty. I've never seen them so dark, even after a few months between details. Could be that this is due to an increase in exhaust gas flow, or it could be due to the car running rich
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:42 PM
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Oh and I'm also running 22-24+ degrees of timing which clearly indicates that boost is down from what it has been tuned for (IE mixture is so rich its providing complete knock suppression), and this is without meth on.
Send AJ an Email with your details [email protected] he would be the best to diagnose any issues. Also include any other mods on the car or changes to the kit that were made.
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Old 02-21-2009, 10:19 PM
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-I don't know if it matters, but I noticed that 1/2 way through my track day at Streets the insides of my exhaust tips were VERY sooty. I've never seen them so dark, even after a few months between details. Could be that this is due to an increase in exhaust gas flow, or it could be due to the car running rich
Targets are richer regardless of boost, so yes they will get black quicker.

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Send AJ an Email with your details [email protected] he would be the best to diagnose any issues. Also include any other mods on the car or changes to the kit that were made.
I would figure Hans would forward everything to him.
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  #88  
Old 02-23-2009, 07:10 AM
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Romen, watch the video, even if the gauge was off (which it isn't, I've compared it) there is no way that things are correct. It would be a waste of money to even think about dynoing the car in that situation.

Also, even if he says that about the pressures, I'm starring at an ESS dyno that says 8psi and around 430 wheel SAE.
Dynographs show peak redline boost as max value, CFR500 is rated at 6.5PSI, CFR525 is rated at 7.

Target AF ratio is mid to high 11's compared to 13's stock during WOT. 22-24 degrees if timing is normal with good quality fuel and cold ambient temps. Normal range is 14-24 depending on fuel quality and discharge temp.

If boost is to low, it has to be a leak in the pressure system. Try to pressurize it. Most likely discharge elbow or throttle body connections.
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Old 02-23-2009, 08:04 AM
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Dynographs show peak redline boost as max value, CFR500 is rated at 6.5PSI, CFR525 is rated at 7.

Target AF ratio is mid to high 11's compared to 13's stock during WOT. 22-24 degrees if timing is normal with good quality fuel and cold ambient temps. Normal range is 14-24 depending on fuel quality and discharge temp.

If boost is to low, it has to be a leak in the pressure system. Try to pressurize it. Most likely discharge elbow or throttle body connections.
No offense Romen, but please read before jumping into the conversation (especially when doing so assumes the ignorance of the person your speaking to). I have boost leaked the car numerous times. I'm not talking about reading a peak number, I'm talking about the full boost log.

22-24 degrees of timing is NOT normal for a boosted car on full throttle.

You need to understand the correlation between AFR and knock suppression which you clearly don't. I'm not saying that the car is running richer then it's supposed to, AFR targets stay the same under full throttle no matter what (so long as the car is warmed up). I'm saying it's running richer that is necessary at the current lower then it should be boost level (of which the high timing is a further indication of) The car doesn't magically know that you're down on boost and lean out the AFR (like a tuner would and could safely to make more power at that particular boost level), it still hits the same 11.x:1 target. Which is unnecessarily rich for the level of low boost being put into the engine which results in very high (like way passed race gas) levels of knock suppression. IE allowing the car to run 22-24 degrees of timing, which is likely full advance of the tune, which should only happen when your running full race gas or w/e they have set for their highest effective octane.
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  #90  
Old 02-23-2009, 01:11 PM
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No offense Romen, but please read before jumping into the conversation (especially when doing so assumes the ignorance of the person your speaking to). I have boost leaked the car numerous times. I'm not talking about reading a peak number, I'm talking about the full boost log.

22-24 degrees of timing is NOT normal for a boosted car on full throttle.

You need to understand the correlation between AFR and knock suppression which you clearly don't. I'm not saying that the car is running richer then it's supposed to, AFR targets stay the same under full throttle no matter what (so long as the car is warmed up). I'm saying it's running richer that is necessary at the current lower then it should be boost level (of which the high timing is a further indication of) The car doesn't magically know that you're down on boost and lean out the AFR (like a tuner would and could safely to make more power at that particular boost level), it still hits the same 11.x:1 target. Which is unnecessarily rich for the level of low boost being put into the engine which results in very high (like way passed race gas) levels of knock suppression. IE allowing the car to run 22-24 degrees of timing, which is likely full advance of the tune, which should only happen when your running full race gas or w/e they have set for their highest effective octane.
No offense taken the response I posted was a quote from AJ I should have stated that to begin with. As far as timing and AFR levels and where they should and should not be you should Email him and have a discussion about it. Being the person who designed the software he could comment about it in greater detail then I can. You did reference that you think the car should max boost at 8 PSI but the kit has never been advertised as an 8 PSI kit it is and always has been 6.5 PSI and 7 PSI. According to your post if you have a 525 kit you are 1.5 PSI off from what you should be at max boost. What ESS dyno are you looking at that shows 8 PSI on a CFR kit ?
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:53 PM
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No offense taken the response I posted was a quote from AJ I should have stated that to begin with. As far as timing and AFR levels and where they should and should not be you should Email him and have a discussion about it. Being the person who designed the software he could comment about it in greater detail then I can. You did reference that you think the car should max boost at 8 PSI but the kit has never been advertised as an 8 PSI kit it is and always has been 6.5 PSI and 7 PSI. According to your post if you have a 525 kit you are 1.5 PSI off from what you should be at max boost. What ESS dyno are you looking at that shows 8 PSI on a CFR kit ?
I('m 99% sure you are misunderstanding him or he is misunderstanding you. I'll just email him all the info now and try to get it sorted.

And either way I am down on boost advertised boost and real boost in addition to the fact that a centrifugal supercharger should never act like what happens in that video. They just don't suddenly hold within a tenth of a psi for 2k rpms like that, they just don't. (you see a spike at the end but that is due to the ecu closing the throttle preparing for the soft limit as I left my RPM limit intact)
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  #92  
Old 02-23-2009, 07:15 PM
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Just a thought regarding our boost: What if ESS chose a supercharger and pulley combo that was sized specifically to spool up quickly and then continue to spool (let's say from 5000rpm on) at the same rate as air flow through the S54 increases? What you would have then is a kit that performs as we are experiencing. Boost continues to climb past the indicated PSI but this doesn't show up on a boost gauge due to the increase in engine air flow as revs climb.

Regarding advertised PSI, here is a quote from Hans, in an email from a couple weeks ago:
Quote:
There can be some small readout differences from gauge to gauge. 8 psi is what we get on our dyno using 4 gear.
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  #93  
Old 02-23-2009, 08:07 PM
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  #94  
Old 02-23-2009, 08:13 PM
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Just a thought regarding our boost: What if ESS chose a supercharger and pulley combo that was sized specifically to spool up quickly and then continue to spool (let's say from 5000rpm on) at the same rate as air flow through the S54 increases? What you would have then is a kit that performs as we are experiencing. Boost continues to climb past the indicated PSI but this doesn't show up on a boost gauge due to the increase in engine air flow as revs climb.

Regarding advertised PSI, here is a quote from Hans, in an email from a couple weeks ago:
Yea gauges can be off, .5 psi is an OK discrepancy a pound or more is not. (what does your boost curve look like?)


I'm sitting here trying to type a reply to the rest but I could not do so without completely explaining in a high level of detail how a supercharger works.

But to say things as simply as possible, that is not how a supercharger works, nor how a gauge would read.

As a supercharger increases in RPMs the CFM output by the supercharger increases as well at a given pressure ratio. Boost occurs in the engine because the output of the compressor is higher then that that the engine can consume at said pressure level. Boost would not be "continuing to climb" if the gauge was not increasing in value. Yes CFM would still be climbing but you would begin losing VE at a greater rate as it's necessary in most engines to increase boost pressure as RPMs increase in order to just maintain the same VE. So it's not like this is a good thing.

It's so difficult to talk about this because we are speaking in 3d, but look at the torque curve of an engine, that is at a very base level, a graph of volumetric efficiency. As you probably know, 90% of the engines out there torque starts to drop at higher RPMs, and that is because VE starts going down.

A properly sized centrifugal compressor will build boost all the way to redline, it is possible that an "undersized" compressor may start to lower in boost because its run out of its efficiency enough to not maintain the pressure ratio but they wont perfectly overlap and hold a flat line of boost, that's unheard of. A decrease in the rate of boost build or a downturn sure, but these things are parabolic in nature and don't sit perfectly flat.


I probably didn't help at all. :/
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:13 PM
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-Pics of yours?

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Yea gauges can be off, .5 psi is an OK discrepancy a pound or more is not. (what does your boost curve look like?)


I'm sitting here trying to type a reply to the rest but I could not do so without completely explaining in a high level of detail how a supercharger works.

But to say things as simply as possible, that is not how a supercharger works, nor how a gauge would read.

As a supercharger increases in RPMs the CFM output by the supercharger increases as well at a given pressure ratio. Boost occurs in the engine because the output of the compressor is higher then that that the engine can consume at said pressure level. Boost would not be "continuing to climb" if the gauge was not increasing in value. Yes CFM would still be climbing but you would begin losing VE at a greater rate as it's necessary in most engines to increase boost pressure as RPMs increase in order to just maintain the same VE. So it's not like this is a good thing.

It's so difficult to talk about this because we are speaking in 3d, but look at the torque curve of an engine, that is at a very base level, a graph of volumetric efficiency. As you probably know, 90% of the engines out there torque starts to drop at higher RPMs, and that is because VE starts going down.

A properly sized centrifugal compressor will build boost all the way to redline, it is possible that an "undersized" compressor may start to lower in boost because its run out of its efficiency enough to not maintain the pressure ratio but they wont perfectly overlap and hold a flat line of boost, that's unheard of. A decrease in the rate of boost build or a downturn sure, but these things are parabolic in nature and don't sit perfectly flat.


I probably didn't help at all. :/
-No, it made sense. I didn't state my idea particularly well before, but for several reasons you mention I'll retroactively call it a shot in the dark.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:28 PM
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-Pics of yours?


-No, it made sense. I didn't state my idea particularly well before, but for several reasons you mention I'll retroactively call it a shot in the dark.
I'm still wondering what your issue is, you said you think we share issues, how down on boost are you or what's up?
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:32 PM
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I'm still wondering what your issue is, you said you think we share issues, how down on boost are you or what's up?
-My boost gauge read just like yours in your video.

I'm beginning to wonder now if it's simply some weird data from the boost gauge and a broken butt dyno. I'm going to dyno my Z4 next Monday at RPI, where it's been dyno'd before the CFR500 kit. Should be easy enough to see if the advertised power is there or not.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:44 PM
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-My boost gauge read just like yours in your video.

I'm beginning to wonder now if it's simply some weird data from the boost gauge and a broken butt dyno. I'm going to dyno my Z4 next Monday at RPI, where it's been dyno'd before the CFR500 kit. Should be easy enough to see if the advertised power is there or not.
You're peaking at 5.5 psi at 6k and holding steady to redline? Make sure you get a boost log.
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by blau335 View Post
You're peaking at 5.5 psi at 6k and holding steady to redline? Make sure you get a boost log.
-A little before 6, say 5500rpm, then steady to redline. Define boost log...
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:58 PM
blau335 blau335 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
-A little before 6, say 5500rpm, then steady to redline. Define boost log...
Good dynos have boost inputs that take readings that you can graph on the dyno graph. Pretty useless to dyno an FI car without one.
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