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  #26  
Old 04-30-2006, 06:33 PM
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BahnBaum BahnBaum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
But I do believe the M5 is 'in the vette's class' when you're talking real world performance - not just straight line.
Would you consider Nurburgring times to be "not just straight line", because I've seen times for the z06 that trounces the M5.

The M5 is an awesomely engineered car. But the weight difference is huge, and I have to believe the handling suffers because of it.

Having said this, I've driven neither of the two cars.

Alex
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  #27  
Old 04-30-2006, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Augenstein
So, by your using the term "casual", I should infer that you didn't really mean it?
Sorry, "casual" is not a synonym for "less idiotic".
Bruce
You can infer whatever you please. What goes in in that little head of yours is nobody's business but your own.
My passing remark about Liter comparison was in fact done because I could care less about the vette's LS7 engine not having DOHC 4-valves. Actually I could car less about the whole Chevy/GM line. I suspect here is where you will begin to type your response that if I care so little about the vette, I shouldn't respond. Go ahead, I "double dog dare ya". Calling someone's post "idiotic" makes you worthy to be branded a forum troll. Having only 32 posts (ATM) I would even suspect you of being the previously banned user "English Teacher".

The one thing that has put me off about buying an Aston martin is how much influence has Ford had? The same with a Lambo, how much VW input has tainted it? Feel free to chime in on those two rhetorical questions as you seem so eager to dogmatically declare to others how massive your automotive knowledge is.

The power to weight ratio of the vette and all the other bells and whistles are a moot point to the general consumer. All the american car buyer looks for in a sports car is 0-60mph, period. Enthusiasts aside, that is the bottom line. If car A has 3 liters and makes 255HP but car B has 5 liters and makes 245HP, do you think a consumer is going to go "Gee, I wonder if Car A is DOHC and Car B is SOHC?". If you're in a social gathering, an event that may be alien to you, then getting into DOHC vs SOHC, double-vanos and throttle bodies is going to make your audience roll their eyes and go "Ok..." As mentioned elsewhere, try explaning how an SMG tranny works and you'll get the same effect. It's a lot easier to explain it as "a clutchless manual" and drop all the electronic wizardry.

If you want cheap speed, go buy a vette. Hell go buy a Motorcycle - can't beat their power to weight ratios. If you want speed with a nice interior and derive your enjoyment from more than just shifting gears and hearing your exhaust growl, look elsewhere.
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  #28  
Old 04-30-2006, 09:38 PM
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i test drove the C6 vette. the interior felt clutered. it was quick like hell and thats not the
Z06....but that strait eventually turned into a fast turn and well the grip was not there even with the traction control on and well i know as a fact i was not pushing it and i had some drift where i shat my pants. so i mean for the thrill of it the vette is awesome but for was M5ness...you get an M5. i feel like the M5 is more tamed and an everyday driver while the vette is a garage model that comes out for a car wash once in a while. over all u get more bling for your buck with the M5 .

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  #29  
Old 05-01-2006, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E60orBust
You can infer whatever you please. What goes in in that little head of yours is nobody's business but your own.
My passing remark about Liter comparison was in fact done because I could care less about the vette's LS7 engine not having DOHC 4-valves. Actually I could car less about the whole Chevy/GM line. I suspect here is where you will begin to type your response that if I care so little about the vette, I shouldn't respond. Go ahead, I "double dog dare ya". Calling someone's post "idiotic" makes you worthy to be branded a forum troll. Having only 32 posts (ATM) I would even suspect you of being the previously banned user "English Teacher".

Wow. Hit a nerve, did I?

The one thing that has put me off about buying an Aston martin is how much influence has Ford had? The same with a Lambo, how much VW input has tainted it? Feel free to chime in on those two rhetorical questions as you seem so eager to dogmatically declare to others how massive your automotive knowledge is.

All the hyperbole about how Ford has saved Jaguar by way of quality improvements has made me grin, inasmuch as it's really a commentary on how bad Jaguar's was, as opposed to Ford being a paragon. That's it for dogmatic declaration on this point.

The power to weight ratio of the vette and all the other bells and whistles are a moot point to the general consumer. All the american car buyer looks for in a sports car is 0-60mph, period. Enthusiasts aside, that is the bottom line. If car A has 3 liters and makes 255HP but car B has 5 liters and makes 245HP, do you think a consumer is going to go "Gee, I wonder if Car A is DOHC and Car B is SOHC?". If you're in a social gathering, an event that may be alien to you, then getting into DOHC vs SOHC, double-vanos and throttle bodies is going to make your audience roll their eyes and go "Ok..." As mentioned elsewhere, try explaning how an SMG tranny works and you'll get the same effect. It's a lot easier to explain it as "a clutchless manual" and drop all the electronic wizardry.

OK, point made. Pretty much the surest way to have people edging away from your corner of the party is to talk tech about cars.

If you want cheap speed, go buy a vette. Hell go buy a Motorcycle - can't beat their power to weight ratios. If you want speed with a nice interior and derive your enjoyment from more than just shifting gears and hearing your exhaust growl, look elsewhere.
My interest in the Z06 would not be for the street. The prospect of taming all that urge for repeatable terrific lap times is fascinating to me. As with 911s (even the 997), it's the challenge. Hard core 911 guys love them not because they're such natural handlers on track, but because when you're good enough to get them dancing right on knife's edge, they are very fast indeed.

Back when I first started doing driving schools in a '95 M3, I was surprised by how easily I could get around 911s. Now, running with folks who know what they're doing, 911s are *really* quick.

Bruce
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  #30  
Old 05-01-2006, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
The z06 is a pure sports car, but read the magazine reviews, and you'll find out the general opinion is it's a scary car to drive fast. Car and Driver did a review on the Ford GT, the new Viper, and the Z06 vette. Their impressions on the racetrack were the GT was by far the best, and every one of the journalists said they would rather drive the Viper on the track than the vette. They said the 'numb steering' and the 'uncommunicative chassis' made the car 'scary to drive fast'.

This is where the M5 has the big advantage over the vette. The M5 may be the easiest car to drive fast that has ever been built. The car communicates everything beautifully to the driver through the steering, chassis, and brakes, and breakaway is easily controlled. I actually outran a new Z06 a few weeks ago. We were screaming through some winding roads in the farmland, and I managed to get on the gas earlier than him through one sweeping curve, and passed him entering the straight. He of course caught right up, but I was in front. Basically, I could drive my car faster than he could drive his in through a backroad course with a number of straights and high speed curves.

The vette is a fantastic car - one of the best in my opinion. The value for the money is just astounding, and GM has done one heck of a job. But I do believe the M5 is 'in the vette's class' when you're talking real world performance - not just straight line. Pretty remarkable for a 5 person sedan.
Pretty much concur on all counts. One of the Vette downers for as long as I can remember is that they don't like mid-corner/curve bumps. They will *not* spit you off, but you're never quite sure. I suspect it's that transverse leaf-spring thing, but have no data to support my theory.

The other thing is that they drive "big". For all practical puposes, a current Vette is the same size as the current 911 in terms of the shadow it casts on the pavement, but it feels about half again as big behind the wheel.

On track, the "bigness" issue pretty much disappears, and the lack of bump tolerance is less of an issue in a repeatable, predictable environment. Still, the potential track challenge is what I find fascinating about the Z06.

It appears that the M cars get better and better as fast street/point-to-point cars with each iteration, but on track, the weight penalty starts to show early and often. Not to say they're slow, but less and less fun. Even the nutbook hyperbole shows this if you read beween the lines.

Bruce
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  #31  
Old 05-01-2006, 07:49 AM
wolverine wolverine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augenstein
Pretty much concur on all counts. One of the Vette downers for as long as I can remember is that they don't like mid-corner/curve bumps. They will *not* spit you off, but you're never quite sure. I suspect it's that transverse leaf-spring thing, but have no data to support my theory.

The other thing is that they drive "big". For all practical puposes, a current Vette is the same size as the current 911 in terms of the shadow it casts on the pavement, but it feels about half again as big behind the wheel.

On track, the "bigness" issue pretty much disappears, and the lack of bump tolerance is less of an issue in a repeatable, predictable environment. Still, the potential track challenge is what I find fascinating about the Z06.

It appears that the M cars get better and better as fast street/point-to-point cars with each iteration, but on track, the weight penalty starts to show early and often. Not to say they're slow, but less and less fun. Even the nutbook hyperbole shows this if you read beween the lines.

Bruce
I think you're right about the 'mid corner/curve bumps'. A British car mag did a test with the M5 vs the Ferrari 430 going through moor roads in Scotland, and the M5 was quicker! They couldn't believe it, and even switched drivers with the same result. Of course the 430 will crush the M5 on any racetrack. I think the difference is that the M5 is easier to drive in 'rally mode', where you don't know what's coming, and it's suspension handles road imperfections better than the Ferrari or the Vette.

'Racetrack times' like the 'ring and other tracks don't show how controllable the car is when you hit a bump mid-corner, or when you go into a curve too hot, or with the wrong line. They do tell you what the car is capable of under 'best case' circumstances.
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  #32  
Old 05-01-2006, 08:48 AM
SmoothCruise SmoothCruise is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E60orBust
You get what you pay for. BMW = speed+luxury vs Z06 which is all muscle. Not to mention liter for liter the BMW wins; 5liter w/500hp vs a 7liter with 500hp. Give BMW 7 liters to play with and get a 700HP car

So what's important about this ratio? It seems rather arbitrary. I also subscribe to an engineering forum, and they told me that this ratio is useless. I also read basically the same thing on edmonds long ago, that hp/liter is a good marketing gimmick.

From what I've observed engines with high hp/liter sacrifice torque numbers. In other words, high hp/liter engines are peaky.
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  #33  
Old 05-01-2006, 08:54 AM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wolverine
... I think the difference is that the M5 is easier to drive in 'rally mode', where you don't know what's coming, and it's suspension handles road imperfections better than the Ferrari or the Vette.

'Racetrack times' like the 'ring and other tracks don't show how controllable the car is when you hit a bump mid-corner, or when you go into a curve too hot, or with the wrong line. They do tell you what the car is capable of under 'best case' circumstances.
This is a quintessential BMW trait, I think. My first memorable experience was when a buddy bought a new 1600 (yeah, I'm a geezer), and on the obligatory demo ride, we went blasting over a certain well-known railroad crossing at around 50 or so, which was guaranteed to loft the front end a bit, followed by a crash onto the bump stops as we descended to terra firma (this was a leftover test from our teenage years). I could hear the tires go whuppa-whuppa over the rails, we launched, and motored away.

Nothing.

"DAMN. DO THAT AGAIN!"

He did.

Nothing.

*Very* cool.

Flash forward to '95, and I'm curious enough about the new M3 to try one out. Our favorite car salesman (also did Mercs at the time, which is how we knew him) throws the keys to me, and we (myself and one of my sons) take it out. After flogging it around for a bit and being impressed by its general elan under duress, we start searching for curves with bumps, and, it being New England and all, we find some.

Nothing.

Finally, I hand him the keys, and we hunt for ever nastier, bumpier turns, which we find. While both my sons are enthusiasts (read "speed freaks"), this one is a world class speed freak - a fighter pilot by trade. He begins really hurling the car through some nasties, and while I can hear the tires and suspension working, the E36 is just motoring along, unflappable.

I bought one.

Haven't really thought about a Vette until this new Z06, but as I said, it made me twitch.

Not gonna happen, though. It's *way* too expensive (for me) as a track-only car, and the Augenstein theory of automobiles is that slower cars are more fun on the street, because you can screw around without being seriously killed, or having them throw the key away after the barred door clangs shut.

Bruce

Last edited by Augenstein; 05-01-2006 at 09:02 AM.
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  #34  
Old 05-01-2006, 08:58 AM
SmoothCruise SmoothCruise is offline
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Originally Posted by Augenstein
Here are the facts: The engines are for all practical purposes equal in weight (last I saw, 458 pounds for the LS7, 453 pounds for the M), while the LS7 is slightly more compact. Power is again pretty much equal, 505 to 500, but the LS7 makes around 80 more foot pounds of torque. Fuel efficiency is tough to call with the cars so different, but it looks as if the LS7 might have better BSFC numbers, as well.

Regarding fuel efficiency, the Z06 is a 7 liter motor. My 645 is a 4.5 liter motor. You'd think I'd have better fuel mileage, right? No. My 6er sticker rating is 26mpg on the highway. The Z06 is exactly the same rating.

Now what about real life fuel efficiency?

I've never broken 19mpg on the highway. The highest I got was about 18.8mpg. A few unlucky 6er owners get roughly the same amount or worse. There are a handful that have gotten about 24mpg on the highway. I have not heard yet of one 6 series car that has matched sticker performance or better.

Now what about the Z06? I lurk on some of their forums. Here's what I've seen: 33mpg.
So for a car that has 50% more liters than my car, it's 33% more efficient.
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  #35  
Old 05-03-2006, 05:38 AM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Originally Posted by SmoothCruise
...So for a car that has 50% more liters than my car, it's 33% more efficient.
The downside of very good highway fuel economy in these cars is that they are really horrendously slow in high gear. Even at an 80 mph cruise, they're only turning around 1800 rpm, and are barely beginning to give you anything even slightly OK in terms of throttle response. I don't know what a 6 turns at speed, but an E46 M3 is at over 3000 rpm at cruise, and has good throttle response at that rpm. Tack on (tach on?) another 20% or so for the E36 version, and it's even better.

As someone very smart once said, "All engineering involves compromise....".

Bruce

Last edited by Augenstein; 05-03-2006 at 06:05 AM.
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  #36  
Old 06-01-2006, 06:48 PM
DJ_INHALE DJ_INHALE is offline
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vettes are for old peeps (sorry every old fart in arizona has one) nice car but ugh. I have never liked vettes. I would take a saleen mustang extreme over a vette. 650 HP 0-60 in first gear. 0-60 low 4.0s.

Alot of grown men here acting their shoe size not their age

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  #37  
Old 06-03-2006, 01:11 PM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Originally Posted by DJ_INHALE
vettes are for old peeps (sorry every old fart in arizona has one) nice car but ugh. I have never liked vettes. I would take a saleen mustang extreme over a vette. 650 HP 0-60 in first gear. 0-60 low 4.0s.

Alot of grown men here acting their shoe size not their age

I am retired, and currently enjoying my third childhood. I run an SRT4 around racetracks here in the Northeast, and also instruct in that process. I also drive an E46 M3, but not on track. Around here, we see Vettes on track, driven by folks of all ages, and they are routinely fast for any given level of driver experience.

You got a problem wit any o' dat?

Bruce
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  #38  
Old 06-03-2006, 01:42 PM
DJ_INHALE DJ_INHALE is offline
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Originally Posted by Augenstein
I am retired, and currently enjoying my third childhood. I run an SRT4 around racetracks here in the Northeast, and also instruct in that process. I also drive an E46 M3, but not on track. Around here, we see Vettes on track, driven by folks of all ages, and they are routinely fast for any given level of driver experience.

You got a problem wit any o' dat?

Bruce

I guess you never lived in arizona then! LOL every baby boomer retired male seems to drive one, all bald with a convertible and an automatic. Vettes in AZ = old fart mobile. Sun birds flock out here cruise around in their vettes from November to about March and thank god most are gone now.
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  #39  
Old 06-03-2006, 02:30 PM
SmoothCruise SmoothCruise is offline
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Originally Posted by Augenstein
The downside of very good highway fuel economy in these cars is that they are really horrendously slow in high gear. Even at an 80 mph cruise, they're only turning around 1800 rpm, and are barely beginning to give you anything even slightly OK in terms of throttle response. I don't know what a 6 turns at speed, but an E46 M3 is at over 3000 rpm at cruise, and has good throttle response at that rpm. Tack on (tach on?) another 20% or so for the E36 version, and it's even better.

As someone very smart once said, "All engineering involves compromise....".

Bruce

So, can't the 'vette owner downshift for throttle response? I don't see the downside here. Actually the show Top Gear did a segment where they took the vette from 0-150 in 5th gear or something. I think the vette has 6 or 7 gears. Anyways, my 6er at 80 is doing about 2500rpms. It has extremely low pulling power at this speed and at top gear. I have to down shift to get anything decent.

Last edited by SmoothCruise; 06-03-2006 at 02:35 PM.
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  #40  
Old 06-04-2006, 07:34 AM
Augenstein Augenstein is offline
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Originally Posted by SmoothCruise
So, can't the 'vette owner downshift for throttle response? I don't see the downside here. Actually the show Top Gear did a segment where they took the vette from 0-150 in 5th gear or something. I think the vette has 6 or 7 gears. Anyways, my 6er at 80 is doing about 2500rpms. It has extremely low pulling power at this speed and at top gear. I have to down shift to get anything decent.
I understand that the overall context here is fuel economy, but just to stay on high-gear performance for a moment, the downside that you don't see in the Vette is the same downside you *do* see in your car. Namely that you have to downshift to get decent acceleration at cruise. Of course that underlines your original point and negates mine (that the Vettes can't get out of their own way in top gear, and that's the price you pay for really good fuel economy). Apparently, your car is also a dog in top gear, but makes up for that by getting lousy mileage.

To put this in some comparitive perspective, consider Car & Driver's 50-70 mph top gear acceleration numbers. Their last E46 M3 test showed a time of 7.4 seconds, while the current issue shows a stick Corvette doing it in 9.1 seconds - even with the more aggressive Z51 gearing. Without the Z51 gearing the car would be well up in the tens for the same test. Even the mighty Z06 can't do any better than an 8.8.

When I traded my '93 six-speed Vette in on a '95 M3, I have to admit that I didn't consider the top-gear sluggishness to be a major issue. After all, as you mention, you can always downshift. However (and as a complete revelation to me), the M3 was by comparison an absolute joy to drive out on the highway. Top gear acceleration was instantaneous and strong, and it made a *huge* difference when driving in traffic. See a hole in traffic over there? Tickle the gas and you're in it. No muss, no fuss, no bother. Just a car eager to fulfill the driver's wishes.

The fastest top-gear car I ever owned was a 2001 Volkswagen GTI 1.8. With chip and exhaust, that car would go from 50 to 70 in 5.5 - 5.6 seconds (measured with a Vericom), and was an absolute blast to drive out on the highway.

'Nuff said. I bow to your point about fuel mileage.

Bruce

Last edited by Augenstein; 06-04-2006 at 07:45 AM.
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  #41  
Old 06-04-2006, 08:15 AM
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760Lifan 760Lifan is offline
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I'd never trade my M5 for any Corvette! Why? EVERYBODY is driving one! When I'm driving to my local supermarket, I see at least 10 of them - can't say that about the M5 (only saw 1 during the last 2 months)...
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  #42  
Old 06-04-2006, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by BahnBaum
Would you consider Nurburgring times to be "not just straight line", because I've seen times for the z06 that trounces the M5.

The M5 is an awesomely engineered car. But the weight difference is huge, and I have to believe the handling suffers because of it.

Having said this, I've driven neither of the two cars.

Alex

I have driven the new M5 and you can definitely feel the weight around town. My Supercharged 3 series will do 170 very easily and could I could see it topping out at around 180MPH. To me that is more then enough. I can see my car running with my cousin's M5 till about 120-130 due to the weight factor. After that I'm pretty sure that the nice V10 would take over after but not tha easily On the Highway that M5 moves kind of like a Boeing in the sky. A bit hard to launch but once launched it gets up and going
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  #43  
Old 06-04-2006, 10:47 AM
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I'd never trade my M5 for any Corvette! Why? EVERYBODY is driving one! When I'm driving to my local supermarket, I see at least 10 of them - can't say that about the M5 (only saw 1 during the last 2 months)...
On the contrary, I have seen like 8 e60 M5 so far this past 2 weeks in my area Btw I just saw a black one this morning on the way to my GF house on Throgs Neck Bridge in NY
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  #44  
Old 06-04-2006, 04:57 PM
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On the contrary, I have seen like 8 e60 M5 so far this past 2 weeks in my area Btw I just saw a black one this morning on the way to my GF house on Throgs Neck Bridge in NY
I guess it depends on location, location, location...
Tampa is some kind of border: The average car "improves" to the south and is getting worse to the north.. I guess I'm a bit too far north (Sarasota is better already..).

NY isn't considered a poor state either, right? 8 E60 M5s would be about the number of cars I've seen in my area in total since they came out, but the number of corvettes? Maybe 15 a day.......
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  #45  
Old 06-04-2006, 05:18 PM
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but the number of corvettes? Maybe 15 a day.......
Exactly why I would never buy a Corvette, everyone has one and they all look the same.
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Old 06-04-2006, 06:20 PM
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Exactly why I would never buy a Corvette, everyone has one and they all look the same.
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  #47  
Old 06-04-2006, 08:55 PM
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I dont even think you can compare M6 to Z06. Because M6 is a GT 2+2 coupe with backseats. Where as Z06 is a pure sports car with no back seats. It is much lighter due to no back seats and thus design wise even smaller overall dimensions. Also the M6 is much more luxury oriented sports machine. Where as in comparison Z06 is non luxury thus again saving further weight in process.

I believe if Z06 was designed with back seats in mind and as a coupe with luxury aspirations. It would need a lot more then 500hp to be as fast as it is right now. Because it would have gained a lot of weight.


Either way as much as I like the Z06 for it light weight and agile performance. If I had to pick one car out of the two then it would be M6 over Z06. The ditto goes for M5 vs Z06.


Quote:
Originally Posted by De_UnKnOwN_1
you cant rele compare the Vette to the M5..

a better comparison is the M6 to the Vette, since the M5 is a sedan and more of a "family" sport car if you will.. room for the kids and such
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