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E46 (1999 - 2006)
The fourth generation 3 Series (E46 chassis) was introduced in 1999 and set the standard for engineering and performance during it's years of production including being named to Car & Driver's 10 best list every one of those years! ! -- View the E46 Wiki

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  #26  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:54 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is online now
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There's a lot of losses in turning heat into torque, torque into electricity, and electricity (coming out of the wall socket) into stored electrical energy (in an e-car's battery). None of that will matter when we have cheap energy form a source other than combustion. We're not there yet,

E-cars' batteries are getting better, specifically cheaper and more durable. But, as of now, replacing a Tesla's batteries costs more than what I'm going to spend on gasoline driving my 535i 100k miles.

All of my cars must be capable of making a long-distance road trip, and that's where e-cars mail miserably. The current problems are finding a charging station and then the time it takes to charge. The first problem will eventually be eliminated, but changed into waiting in line to be charged. A relative of mine has a Tesla S, and it suits his life perfectly. He drives is short distances in town. He also drives it to his beach house 200 miles away. He has home chargers in both houses. He has a gas-guzzling SUV for the trip to his parents lake house (no charger) and other destinations. I don't have a beach house 200 miles from my city house. So, a Tesla S doesn't work for me.
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  #27  
Old 01-13-2020, 09:10 AM
meinbills meinbills is offline
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I can't make an indisputable argument for EV ... just yet because we are at the beginning of the EV era. Not enough time to tell you that yes, an EV will outlast an ICE car by miles and miles. Understandably the battery replacement costs is a concern RIGHT NOW but who knows several years down the road replacing the batteries will not be as bad as replacing one of these gas engines in the e46. We need more innovations and mass adoption. Also yes, range is of a major concern RIGHT NOW so I'm not seeing the death of the ICE just yet. But you know, technology will progress and problems will be solved and the ICE will be a relic for sure. Maybe the eventual solution won't be EV/battery but another mode of transportation/energy but whatever it is, ICE's days are numbered.
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  #28  
Old 01-13-2020, 12:32 PM
SPDSKTR SPDSKTR is offline
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Scientists are constantly working on better batteries. Solid-state batteries, sodium-ion batteries, and other such technologies are well within our grasp. Imagine having a battery the same size as what's in a Tesla Model S 70D, but with three times the storage capacity. That means you'd get over 400 miles on a "base" model electric car. Not many people drive more than 400 miles in a day, so this would be phenomenal.

However, I'm pretty sure what would happen is that they'd cut the battery size by 2/3, resulting in the original mileage (although a much lighter car).

For a commuter car and something to go to the grocery store, give me an electric car all day long. For something with soul, I'll take my ZHP any day.

(I wonder if I could convince the owners of our company to let me get a Tesla Cybertruck as my next company vehicle...)
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  #29  
Old 01-13-2020, 02:58 PM
John Davis John Davis is offline
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I wouldn't buy a Tesla right now; I would only lease one, partly because I don't know how expensive replacing the battery would be. That said, I have some friends and neighbors here in southern California who put solar panels on their roof and a charging station in the garage. They run two Teslas from the sunlight falling on their roof. (At night they buy electricity from the electric company, during the day the electric company buys it from them. They end up actually making a bit of money every month by selling more electricity than they buy.)

If I had the money for solar panels right now, I'd probably lease a Tesla 3, at least for the 50 mile drive to work. Long-distance driving is one of the reasons I will keep my E46. Fun is another, but having driven a Tesla 3, they're not bad at all. My 330 is -more- fun to drive than the Tesla 3, but the Tesla 3 is fun at the level of a daily driver. Very nice interior too.
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  #30  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:22 PM
FredoinSF FredoinSF is offline
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Someone should change the title of this post.


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  #31  
Old 01-13-2020, 07:41 PM
meinbills meinbills is offline
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You guys make it sound like driving an EV is like driving an ox cart. Would anyone compare driving a 2001 Civic to a 2001 e46? I don't think so. What happens if you keep the same driving dynamics of the e46 but then gut out the engine and replace it with batteries and motors? What's the difference besides the noise (it can be simulated) and the emission? If the driving experience is the same, wouldn't you rather have a lesser maintenance vehicle?
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  #32  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:18 AM
SPDSKTR SPDSKTR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Davis View Post
If I had the money for solar panels right now, I'd probably lease a Tesla 3, at least for the 50 mile drive to work. Long-distance driving is one of the reasons I will keep my E46. Fun is another, but having driven a Tesla 3, they're not bad at all. My 330 is -more- fun to drive than the Tesla 3, but the Tesla 3 is fun at the level of a daily driver. Very nice interior too.
Personally, I'd get a Nissan Leaf. Similar range, more practicality, cheaper to insure, and you know Nissan actually puts a little effort into quality control.

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Originally Posted by meinbills View Post
You guys make it sound like driving an EV is like driving an ox cart. Would anyone compare driving a 2001 Civic to a 2001 e46? I don't think so. What happens if you keep the same driving dynamics of the e46 but then gut out the engine and replace it with batteries and motors? What's the difference besides the noise (it can be simulated) and the emission? If the driving experience is the same, wouldn't you rather have a lesser maintenance vehicle?
No sir. Part of the soul of a combustion engine is not only hearing the sound, but feeling the engine rev and "talk" to you. I've been in one BMW with the synthesized engine sounds and... it was... uh...


Richard Hammond in an F10 M5 summing up his feelings on the synthesized engine sound.

The feeling of changing gears, manually or with paddles, the rise and fall of the revs, the engine braking with pops and burbles... an electric car just can't do that.

Don't get me wrong... if I had the money to buy an electric performance car, I totally would. I'd still keep a gas-powered car, though. Nostalgia is a hard beast to kill.
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  #33  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:09 AM
meinbills meinbills is offline
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Not everyone into keeping the VHS player in their living room for daily use except for those who want a conversation piece. Everyone else moves on. Yes, you can keep your ICE around to remind you of a time gone by but like those into collecting classic muscle cars, there are not a lot of them.
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  #34  
Old 01-14-2020, 09:34 AM
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lgr122 lgr122 is online now
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E34 M5 is what I would really want for myself, but I'm afraid I will never quite get there. I have steady job, but after taking care of house and family and two Bmw:s, there's nothing left for anything extra really.
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  #35  
Old 01-14-2020, 12:27 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is online now
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Here's a story saying that BMW plans to build internal combustion engines until 2050.

https://bimmerlife.com/2020/01/11/bm...tm_name=member


Although, the future is bleak for the V12's and maybe the V8's.
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  #36  
Old 01-14-2020, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by FredoinSF View Post
Someone should change the title of this post.


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  #37  
Old 01-14-2020, 01:29 PM
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E34 M5 is what I would really want for myself, but I'm afraid I will never quite get there. I have steady job, but after taking care of house and family and two Bmw:s, there's nothing left for anything extra really.
Don`t give up on that dream just yet, my boy....go out and buy yourself a Lottery ticket !

Always loved the E34 M5s, they really lend themselves to some heavy modding....there are quite a few of `em running around your neck of the woods, sporting purpose-built turbo motors which will stand up to 22 pounds of boost without self-destructing. Most of them are dynoing at 750 to 1000 RWHP (!), which is TRULY prodigious from a 3-liter six banger! In addition to this video, there`s another dude named Dejvan who has a real nice example, too.



P.S.: Found the Dejvan video:

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Last edited by Fast Bob; 01-14-2020 at 01:34 PM.
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  #38  
Old 01-14-2020, 03:51 PM
rudyrov rudyrov is offline
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This is actually happening in many places for many reasons, here is an interesting article.
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...fiLOU3M6OgVtGo
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  #39  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:33 PM
commandersander commandersander is offline
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I would like to start of by saying electric cars and motorcycles can F*ck Off!. Ok now that we have that out of the way I can explain exactly why.

First and foremost let's talk about the Ohh so "planet friendly" Formula E racing series. Now at first glance you might think that this "clean" form of racing must be the way of the future, right?? Not so much. Let take a peek at what's really going on.
The very first indication this might be Bull**** is the 20 CAT Diesel generators in the pits running full throttle charging the batteries for these cars. Each car uses two 550 pound Lithium batteries per race. These batteries put out 250KW of power, and have a maximum output of 54KWH (kilowatt hours). On the high side the average U.S. home uses about 20KWH of power per day. One Formula E car, in one race uses four times that in 50 minutes. The recent Hong Kong race had 25 cars on the grid, using fifty 550lb Lithium batteries in 50 minutes. That's a total of 2700 Kilowatt Hours. Or more than enough to power 10 homes for a month. That's a lot of juice! Also the five power-plants in Hong Kong are powered by Diesel, Coal, and Gasoline. Whoopsie!

Now let's take a look at these newfangled Lithium batteries. The big companies hawking electric cars and motorcycles would love you to believe that Fossil fuel is so harmful, and electric power is so clean. It's actually the opposite. We are swapping a carbon monoxide problem that is fixable and controllable. For a toxic Lithium mining that kills wild life, ruins the water table and destroys agriculture. The mining process uses a ton of water. A million gallons of water per 2 metric tons of lithium(Each Tesla has 12 kilos of Lithium). In some South American countries like Chile. Lithium mining uses almost 70% of the countries water supply. Also if you are naÔve enough to think that there isn't a bunch of diesel powered machinery used in the process? Think again. These Lithium batteries also leave a toxic footprint on the way out. Contamination of landfills and seeping into the water table......Ö.


via Jesse James
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  #40  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:43 PM
Glaird Glaird is offline
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IMHO, electric cars, are a political fad, that will pass. (Not talking about hybrids.) From elementary high school physics, electric cars cause far more pollution of the atmosphere with carbon based fuel byproducts, than simply burning the gas in an internal combustion engine. When reason returns to governments, local, state, and federal, this will become readily apparent to those making current stupid laws/regulations. [One can't convert forms of energy and transmit it to a car more efficiently than simply burning the ultimate source in the car.]
Therefore, normally aspirated engines will be no more valuable in the collection of automotive history than the Stanley Steamer or the Chrysler Aero Coupe.

(Hybrids make sense, because of driving statistics. Most driving involves acceleration that is soon wasted by stopping/slowing. If one can recapture/convert that potential energy during stopping, then reuse some of it during the next acceleration cycle, net energy consumption really does drop.)
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  #41  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:51 PM
Blue Hued Blue Hued is offline
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E85/e86?

The 2006-08 M Roadster/Coupe had the same same engine (S54) and similar underpinnings. Production was limited on both models. The E46 is classic is so many ways but I wonder if the (Z4) M's from those years will see some increase in demand and hence value. Thoughts?
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  #42  
Old 01-14-2020, 04:57 PM
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One more point, which has not yet been addressed....I don`t know if any of you have ever witnessed a battery explosion, but I have.... it is a fearsome experience. Granted, it was a "normal" 12 volt lead-acid battery, and not a lithium or other more exotic type, but the thought of sitting on top of a thousand pounds of batteries is less than appealing to my sensibilities....
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  #43  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:01 PM
Glaird Glaird is offline
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Originally Posted by Fast Bob View Post
One more point, which has not yet been addressed....I don`t know if any of you have ever witnessed a battery explosion, but I have.... it is a fearsome experience. Granted, it was a "normal" 12 volt lead-acid battery, and not a lithium or other more exotic type, but the thought of sitting on top of a thousand pounds of batteries is less than appealing to my sensibilities....
Gives a whole new connotation to IED.
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  #44  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:06 PM
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Gives a whole new connotation to IED.
`Zackly !
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  #45  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:12 PM
Stevenym4 Stevenym4 is offline
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For EV to really take off they must either increase the range or make the battery module interchangeable, done in the same time or less than it takes to fill a gas tank. When they perfect that, EV will rule the market. Better yet... buying just a shell and "using" a battery module will make buying a vehicle less expensive over all. In reality the range is not 300 miles or whatever it's billed to be, the range is 1/2 of what's claimed because you need to return to the charger.
Current EV may work well in the city but not in the country or for long trips. I just drove a 22 hour trip in two days. There is no way I could have done that while waiting for the battery to recharge. The trip would have taken a week with EV.

With that said the future of EV is not performance but comfort. If a EV was available with interchangeable batteries and slept 4 I'd be writing a check for it right now. Even better if I could program my destination and go about other things while getting there.

Another upside of self-driving EV will be newly available prime real estate where parking lots use to be. I can see in the distant future plush conversion vans that will be where the owner lives. A nice plush conversion van is what was used for the 22 hour trip I just made. Watching movies, PS4,sleeping, etc along the way. Only thing missing was a bathroom and microwave.

I see someone above commented that it's a political fad. I totally agree and have done a lot of research into this market. There isn't a single manufacturer that could sustain itself without subsidies or carbon credits. I did this research after riding in the third car Tesla built way back in the day in California. I was intrigued but leery, I still am.

Last edited by Stevenym4; 01-14-2020 at 05:21 PM.
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  #46  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:21 PM
FredoinSF FredoinSF is offline
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As you wish, Sir....


Well done. Thank you.

This thread is making me realize I have zero passion towards electric cars. I donít dislike them, their owners, and have wondered about yet not researched the environmental impact issue. And Iíve been working with Tesla for ongoing project for about three years.


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1997 328is - 5 speed
1991 318is - 5 speed
1988 635csi - 5 speed
1988 325i convertible - 5 speed
1969 2002 with tii and 5 speed conversions
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  #47  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:27 PM
Stevenym4 Stevenym4 is offline
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Originally Posted by FredoinSF View Post
Well done. Thank you.

This thread is making me realize I have zero passion towards electric cars. I donít dislike them, their owners, and have wondered about yet not researched the environmental impact issue. And Iíve been working with Tesla for ongoing project for about three years.


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Environmental impact, I remember reading an article about a battery factory or maybe it was a nickel factory where nothing grew for miles around the facility. I could never find any other information on that so I wrote it off as propaganda.
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  #48  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:28 PM
John Davis John Davis is offline
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Originally Posted by commandersander View Post
Now let's take a look at these newfangled Lithium batteries. The big companies hawking electric cars and motorcycles would love you to believe that Fossil fuel is so harmful, and electric power is so clean. It's actually the opposite. We are swapping a carbon monoxide problem that is fixable and controllable. For a toxic Lithium mining that kills wild life, ruins the water table and destroys agriculture. The mining process uses a ton of water. A million gallons of water per 2 metric tons of lithium(Each Tesla has 12 kilos of Lithium). In some South American countries like Chile. Lithium mining uses almost 70% of the countries water supply. Also if you are naÔve enough to think that there isn't a bunch of diesel powered machinery used in the process? Think again. These Lithium batteries also leave a toxic footprint on the way out. Contamination of landfills and seeping into the water table......Ö.
Actually, I AM concerned about -this- issue. I'm hoping they find a substitute for lithium batteries.
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  #49  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:28 PM
satyaban satyaban is offline
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Originally Posted by McLarenBMW View Post
*sigh* liberals..........
Not all liberal thinking people hate electric cars or anything. I am a liberal who loves gasoline driven cars, electric cars are the future but there has to be a place for us. I learned to drive in my brother's 3 speed on the column '62 Ford and I wouldn't own an automatic but I have one now and brake with my right foot. The most asinine idea is that auto racing should be influenced by fuel economy and being "green." I like mastering the cars power curve and gears, the things that make driving a craft and for some an art.

BTW I don't give a damn about tobacco, motorcycle helmets or any of the other nonsense but I do care about my fellows no matter where they live.
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  #50  
Old 01-14-2020, 05:43 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is online now
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Originally Posted by rudyrov View Post
This is actually happening in many places for many reasons, here is an interesting article.
https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...fiLOU3M6OgVtGo
Back during the Carter administration, the DOT decided they were going to reinvent the city mass transit bus. DOT pays for much of the busses used by municipal and metro area transit systems. So, they controlled the market. One of the things they did was to pay more for the busses if they were lighter. So, Grumman designed their new generation of buses to be a light as possible, and then even lighter. They were up to dealing with neglected snow-belt streets full of potholes. There were a lot of incidents were the busses powertrain would fall out onto the street after hitting a big pothole.

That spawned a cottage industry of refurbishing older used buses. Transit system were paying to have their old buses refurbished, and even buying used refurbished busses in stead of the new-generation, new busses.
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