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  #3476  
Old 08-13-2019, 04:06 PM
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Well, on a somewhat related noted to this thread, the Jaguar I-Pace appears to be no threat to anything else out there, although they are certainly targeting Tesla. Anyone can get $12k in factory credits and discounts on one, but if you're a Tesla owner, Jaguar will increase that to $15k. On a car with a base sticker of $70k, that's over 20% off. I think Jaguar is likely taking a bath on the I-Pace.


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  #3477  
Old 08-13-2019, 05:44 PM
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A coworker got a quote in July for a 2019 i3 leases REX MSRP $49k 3 yrs 10k/yr, $310/month, $2400 MSD, tax included, $1400 out the door. This month's incentive supposedly is even better than July.

That is $12250 for 3 years 30k miles for a 200-mile EV. And that is before $2500 CA EV credit too.

As suggested previously, the market is efficient!
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  #3478  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
A coworker got a quote in July for a 2019 i3 leases REX MSRP $49k 3 yrs 10k/yr, $310/month, $2400 MSD, tax included, $1400 out the door. This month's incentive supposedly is even better than July.

That is $12250 for 3 years 30k miles for a 200-mile EV. And that is before $2500 CA EV credit too.

As suggested previously, the market is efficient!


The number of “friends” you have buying or shopping new cars on a convenient weekly basis is remarkable!


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  #3479  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:32 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
A coworker got a quote in July for a 2019 i3 leases REX MSRP $49k 3 yrs 10k/yr, $310/month, $2400 MSD, tax included, $1400 out the door. This month's incentive supposedly is even better than July.

That is $12250 for 3 years 30k miles for a 200-mile EV. And that is before $2500 CA EV credit too.

As suggested previously, the market is efficient!
It’s a 126 mile EV. The extended range engine extends that to 200 miles as rated by BMW.
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  #3480  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:03 AM
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It's a 126 mile EV. The extended range engine extends that to 200 miles as rated by BMW.
bmwusa says 2019 i3 has range of 153 miles, extended by 30% with REX to 200 miles.
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  #3481  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:53 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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bmwusa says 2019 i3 has range of 153 miles, extended by 30% with REX to 200 miles.
I stand corrected. 2019 models are rated to 153 miles as you say. The 200 mile model is not a true EV.
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  #3482  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:12 PM
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I stand corrected. 2019 models are rated to 153 miles as you say. The 200 mile model is not a true EV.
That is true, i3 has a small(er) 42.2kWh battery + 2 gears, 153 miles of pure EV range is not bad.
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  #3483  
Old 08-15-2019, 12:17 PM
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That is true, i3 has a small(er) 42.2kWh battery + 2 gears, 153 miles of pure EV range is not bad.
It's also a $45,000 base price EV and is smashed by nearly every metric by the $35,000 Tesla Model 3.

There are over 20 Model 3s in my company's car park garage, there are zero I3s.
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  #3484  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:25 PM
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It's also a $45,000 base price EV and is smashed by nearly every metric by the $35,000 Tesla Model 3.

There are over 20 Model 3s in my company's car park garage, there are zero I3s.
The i3 lease deals are cheaper than SR ones, something like $12k versus $16k for 3 years 10k miles/yr, so the market is efficient.
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  #3485  
Old 08-16-2019, 07:03 AM
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The i3 lease deals are cheaper than SR ones, something like $12k versus $16k for 3 years 10k miles/yr, so the market is efficient.


Sure bmw can heavily subsidize their current overpriced EV offering because it keeps them active in the segment and probably helps with their cafe numbers.

If you live in a cooler climate the i3 is worthless for anything other than short range commuting.


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  #3486  
Old 08-16-2019, 09:11 AM
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Sure bmw can heavily subsidize their current overpriced EV offering because it keeps them active in the segment and probably helps with their cafe numbers.

If you live in a cooler climate the i3 is worthless for anything other than short range commuting.


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i3 REX $12k for 3 years 10k/yr is not overpriced EV with pure 153 miles of range.

If the comment is referring to BMW MSRP, festers already know for a long long while that specific number is not too meaningful.
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  #3487  
Old 08-16-2019, 12:44 PM
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That's a good lease price but the 10k annual mileage and lack of a charging network severely restrict it as a daily driver except for local driving. It's a very much compromised EV compared to the 3. It's a toy.
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  #3488  
Old 08-16-2019, 12:47 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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That's a good lease price but the 10k annual mileage and lack of a charging network severely restrict it as a daily driver except for local driving. It's a very much compromised EV compared to the 3. It's a placeholder and early development vehicle towards soon to come high volume BMW EV's.

Last edited by Michael Schott; 08-16-2019 at 02:49 PM.
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  #3489  
Old 08-16-2019, 04:25 PM
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That's a good lease price but the 10k annual mileage and lack of a charging network severely restrict it as a daily driver except for local driving. It's a very much compromised EV compared to the 3. It's a placeholder and early development vehicle towards soon to come high volume BMW EV's.
The coworker's final deal was $51000-ish MSRP i3 REX 3 years 10k/yr, cap cost $35600, $2800 MSD(not sure what is max. MSD), $12.5k total.

153 miles of EV + 47 miles of extended do not sound too much of compromise, esp. 47 miles can be extended from gas station to gas station if needed.

Maybe the next i3 revision can double gas tank size and provide 100+ miles of extended range, and improve battery range to 200+ miles.
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  #3490  
Old 08-16-2019, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The coworker's final deal was $51000-ish MSRP i3 REX 3 years 10k/yr, cap cost $35600, $2800 MSD(not sure what is max. MSD), $12.5k total.

153 miles of EV + 47 miles of extended do not sound too much of compromise, esp. 47 miles can be extended from gas station to gas station if needed.

Maybe the next i3 revision can double gas tank size and provide 100+ miles of extended range, and improve battery range to 200+ miles.
I hope he never has to drive more than 100 miles one way in his i3. Will there be a next gen i3? I doubt it. It's already obsolete.
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  #3491  
Old 08-16-2019, 11:44 PM
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I hope he never has to drive more than 100 miles one way in his i3. Will there be a next gen i3? I doubt it. It's already obsolete.
It is unclear to me that PHEVs are as obsolete as BEV proponents would like to believe, and i3 is a rare breed with EV range better than gasoline range!

The next gen of BMW EVs appear to be iX3, i4, and iNext in 2021.
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  #3492  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:25 AM
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Well your comment of tepid performance and mediocre handling is your personal experience or your extrapolation?

Surprisingly, the closet H2 refuel station to my work is a bit over 2 miles away, and within 10 miles there are 5 total.

There are quite a few FC cars around here, e.g. today within a stretch of 1 mile of local streets there are 3 Mirai's!

The Clarity FC and Nexo do not stand out as much so Mirai's though.
If you have a hydrogen fueled car today, good luck getting fuel for it. This is part of the danger of using hydrogen fuel.

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In its first big test, the passenger-car hydrogen economy appears to be failing.

A June explosion at a hydrogen production facility in Santa Clara, California, owned by hydrogen producer Air Products shut off the fuel supply to many of the hydrogen filling stations in the San Francisco Bay Area.

Months later, many of the region's hundreds of hydrogen fuel-cell-car drivers have been left with no reasonable choice but to park their cars until fuel supplies returned.

One Toyota Mirai driver even reported trading her car in early for a Toyota Prius Prime that doesn't have the scarce fuel limitation of the Mirai. Vivian Knits reported on Facebook that it didn't make sense to continue paying "luxury-car insurance" for a car she couldn't drive. Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai, which all market fuel-cell passenger models in the U.S., have provided rental cars to some customers while fuel was unavailable.


https://www.greencarreports.com/news...june-explosion

Last edited by GregD; 09-11-2019 at 09:28 AM.
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  #3493  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:38 AM
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If you have a hydrogen fueled car today, good luck getting fuel for it. This is part of the danger of using hydrogen fuel.
Yes, I'm waiting with bated breath on what his many hydrogen car co-workers have to say about this.

Do they keep spare canisters of hydrogen at home for such emergencies?

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  #3494  
Old 09-11-2019, 09:53 AM
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Yes, I'm waiting with bated breath on what his many hydrogen car co-workers have to say about this.

Do they keep spare canisters of hydrogen at home for such emergencies?

Maybe that's why those two have been working at home?!?

Last round(in June) one got a Toyota loaner while the other still got fuel from other refueling stations close to home, both said fuel supply resumed afterwards(not sure how long), so it is time to take another pulse reading (if there is still any!) from them.
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  #3495  
Old 09-11-2019, 11:55 AM
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If you have a hydrogen fueled car today, good luck getting fuel for it. This is part of the danger of using hydrogen fuel.
According to the two Mirai owners the supplier True Zero is affected and their stations get daily refuel at night but runs out in the morning, while refuel stations 10 miles north are OK.

One lives around an unaffected station and he is OK. The other one is True Zero territory and has been driving a Jetta rental since(paid by Toyota, who runs out of loaners at dealers), and does not eat into the 21-day premium rental. The one with Jetta rental is trying to switch into a Audi Q3 next(pending Toyota approval).

This does not sound bad as far as genuine pigs are concerned.
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  #3496  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:17 PM
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According to the two Mirai owners the supplier True Zero is affected and their stations get daily refuel at night but runs out in the morning, while refuel stations 10 miles north are OK.

One lives around an unaffected station and he is OK. The other one is True Zero territory and has been driving a Jetta rental since(paid by Toyota, who runs out of loaners at dealers), and does not eat into the 21-day premium rental. The one with Jetta rental is trying to switch into a Audi Q3 next(pending Toyota approval).

This does not sound bad as far as genuine pigs are concerned.
In summary, hydrogen fueled vehicles have an extremely limited infrastructure for their fuel source, so limited in fact, that an accident at one production plant is enough to force owners to have to rent another car to get around. And that's in the only state in the country that has any significant support at all for hydrogen fueled vehicles. Totally not ready for prime time.
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  #3497  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
According to the two Mirai owners the supplier True Zero is affected and their stations get daily refuel at night but runs out in the morning, while refuel stations 10 miles north are OK.

One lives around an unaffected station and he is OK. The other one is True Zero territory and has been driving a Jetta rental since(paid by Toyota, who runs out of loaners at dealers), and does not eat into the 21-day premium rental. The one with Jetta rental is trying to switch into a Audi Q3 next(pending Toyota approval).

This does not sound bad as far as genuine pigs are concerned.
Yeah, sounds really convenient.

VW just unveiled their id.3 final production version that they will start building late this year and will be available (in Europe only) by next summer. 300+ mile range in top trim, fast charging, all the fixings in a hot little hatch.

Hydrogen is DoA other than some specific applications where it might make sense in the medium term like freight, delivery, military. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks they want one as a daily driver.
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  #3498  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:27 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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In summary, hydrogen fueled vehicles have an extremely limited infrastructure for their fuel source, so limited in fact, that an accident at one production plant is enough to force owners to have to rent another car to get around. And that's in the only state in the country that has any significant support at all for hydrogen fueled vehicles. Totally not ready for prime time.
That is the status quo(analogous to EV1?) and the attentions the guinea pigs receive does reflect that.

Do note that all-in for these gents is $9500, that is not bad if they get a Audi Q3 rental for 3 years($9500 is current rate for 3-year Jetta lease)!
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  #3499  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:30 PM
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That is the status quo(analogous to EV1?) and the attentions the guinea pigs receive does reflect that.

Do note that all-in for these gents is $9500, that is not bad if they get a Audi Q3 rental for 3 years($9500 is current rate for 3-year Jetta lease)!
What's your time worth? What's the time dealing with only being able to detour and fill up at these specific stations? What's the time dealing with getting a rental?

If there are enough subsidies going to incentivize people to put up with this crap more power to them. I like being able to plug in either at home or work and never needing to make a fueling detour of any kind unless I'm going on a long drive, in which cases I would typically be driving our gas sucking ICE SUV anyways.

I had to gas up said SUV last week and did small detour to Costco to save some $$ on it. 10 minutes to detour to Costco then the fuel lines were quite long so about 10-15 minutes in line to get the car fueled, then another 10 minutes to get back on-route.

Stopping for fuel of any kind SUCKS.
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  #3500  
Old 09-11-2019, 12:42 PM
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What's your time worth? What's the time dealing with only being able to detour and fill up at these specific stations? What's the time dealing with getting a rental?

If there are enough subsidies going to incentivize people to put up with this crap more power to them. I like being able to plug in either at home or work and never needing to make a fueling detour of any kind unless I'm going on a long drive, in which cases I would typically be driving our gas sucking ICE SUV anyways.

I had to gas up said SUV last week and did small detour to Costco to save some $$ on it. 10 minutes to detour to Costco then the fuel lines were quite long so about 10-15 minutes in line to get the car fueled, then another 10 minutes to get back on-route.

Stopping for fuel of any kind SUCKS.
Typical Costco gas station in CO is 12 pumps? The local ones are 24, so 2 minutes to fuel up is norm for a typical Costco run(no detour time).

In fact lately the mobile fuel delivery service has been fueling up my car at work, for about $0.15-0.20 extra per gallon(can be lower dependent on supply of the day) compared to Costco(and lower than typical top-tier), and 1 minute to order on app.

My thinking is that mobile service will be a great way to deliver hydrogen!
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