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  #26  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:04 PM
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$1700 in today's money is worth $1200 in 2002 money so average it out to about $1400 or about $7 a month.
I used to say, "hey that pays for a month of Netflix!" But $7 savings per month doesn't even cover that anymore
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  #27  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:15 PM
heliskiier heliskiier is offline
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Put 93 or 100 in it every so often for the mind game that happens to the human brain just by thinking it's way better.. Throw some 100 in her. The ECU will take it well under 100 anyways. ECU adapts to any gas. 87 will never damage your motor. That's just an old wive's tale. U lose a really small amount of HP going down. Gas mileage???? Heck, we're all in sport What do we care? The owner's manual is selling high priced gas. Every owners manual on any decent performance car ever made says use 91 or 93. I'll absolutely guarantee you from working the insides of motors for 20 years that gas grade has absolutely NOTHING to do with engine wear. I'll also guarantee you that you won't see more than a 1-3% difference in mileage. It's just all BS.

I ran a 450HP motor on the track to test the gas hypothesis out several years ago. I ran 11.7's on 93 and 11.9's on 87. I had decent 60 foot times every time, because that's the key to the quarter time. I also ran race 100 and got zero difference on a bunch ot runs...None of these options are noticeable unless you're looking for a tenth or two which you can make up with a decent 60 foot time. Insignificant. And, 99% of us don't ever run a quarter on a track ever (and why would we subject our wonderful expensive BMW rides to that abuse anyways?), so it's even more insignificant.

This is a silly argument that comes up in a new thread every month...

Last edited by heliskiier; 09-04-2018 at 05:34 PM.
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  #28  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:20 PM
heliskiier heliskiier is offline
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Originally Posted by adhrp View Post
I used to say, "hey that pays for a month of Netflix!" But $7 savings per month doesn't even cover that anymore
Maybe I missed the point of your post, but 15 gallons x .30 difference between regular and high-test is $4.50 a tank and 4x a month tanking makes $18 a month. Yes I can pay for my Netflix with that. Simple math. Why should I buy what I don't need?
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  #29  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:29 PM
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So you saved about $22 a month. Hard to see in financial impact, but it make you happy so good for you.

Yes.

Among BMW owners, there are standards. Premium is preferred.


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Old 09-04-2018, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by heliskiier View Post
Maybe I missed the point of your post, but 15 gallons x .30 difference between regular and high-test is $4.50 a tank and 4x a month tanking makes $18 a month. Yes I can pay for my Netflix with that. Simple math. Why should I buy what I don't need?
$18 can pay for unlimited call + text too on some cell plans.

From my observation though 91 has better mpg than 87 or 89, it is more than 1-3%, it is 1-2mpg extra with 91(around 25mpg mixed city/hwy)

Now it can be true that switching from 91 to 87 causes ECU to throttle performance, hence the drivers step on gas to compensate, leading to sub-optimal fuel consumption?!?

Last edited by namelessman; 09-04-2018 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by CALWATERBOY TRE View Post
Yes.

Among BMW owners, there are standards. Premium is preferred.


If you are all about smoking a stogie and feeling rich, "standards" are important I guess...for the rest of us common sense is OK...
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Old 09-04-2018, 05:38 PM
BobinIl BobinIl is online now
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Around me, premium is regularly .70 to .90 per gallon higher than regular. So a 15 gallon fill can be around $11 to $14 higher. It's not insignificant. I accept the difference and use premium. The time to determine if you don't care to use premium is when you are car shopping vs. after the fact when you already have the car.
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  #33  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by heliskiier View Post
Put 93 or 100 in it every so often for the mind game that happens to the human brain just by thinking it's way better.. Throw some 100 in her. The ECU will take it well under 100 anyways. ECU adapts to any gas. 87 will never damage your motor. That's just an old wive's tale. U lose a really small amount of HP going down. Gas mileage???? Heck, we're all in sport What do we care? The owner's manual is selling high priced gas. Every owners manual on any decent performance car ever made says use 91 or 93. I'll absolutely guarantee you from working the insides of motors for 20 years that gas grade has absolutely NOTHING to do with engine wear. I'll also guarantee you that you won't see more than a 1-3% difference in mileage. It's just all BS.

I ran a 450HP motor on the track to test the gas hypothesis out several years ago. I ran 11.7's on 93 and 11.9's on 87. I had decent 60 foot times every time, because that's the key to the quarter time. I also ran race 100 and got zero difference on a bunch ot runs...None of these options are noticeable unless you're looking for a tenth or two which you can make up with a decent 60 foot time. Insignificant. And, 99% of us don't ever run a quarter on a track ever (and why would we subject our wonderful expensive BMW rides to that abuse anyways?), so it's even more insignificant.

This is a silly argument that comes up in a new thread every month...
BMW motor on 94 octane that will run clean on 100



Quote:
and why would we subject our wonderful expensive BMW rides to that abuse anyways?

Because its just a high volume production car not a holy relic. Besides would rather go with the input of the engineers who build the car as opposed to a cheap gas guy on the internet. Car are recommended at 89 minimum & like FORD are rated on premium. Standard premium in NC is 93. That said they also have some overhead just like the ability to run on 87 if the rated fuel is not available. My 335is got to 321whp on 94 pure stock.
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  #34  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobinIl View Post
Around me, premium is regularly .70 to .90 per gallon higher than regular. So a 15 gallon fill can be around $11 to $14 higher. It's not insignificant. I accept the difference and use premium. The time to determine if you don't care to use premium is when you are car shopping vs. after the fact when you already have the car.
Yes, I was just using my prices for the comparison. $44-52 a month is an insane amount of $ to pay to get almost no noticeable difference in performance for the average driving experience.
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  #35  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:42 PM
heliskiier heliskiier is offline
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
BMW motor on 94 octane that will run clean on 100

ECM motors will run clean on any gas you put in them...not a whole lot faster though.
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  #36  
Old 09-04-2018, 05:59 PM
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ECM motors will run clean on any gas you put in them...not a whole lot faster though.
You are running 11 seconds & don't understand that the graph shows timing pulls when available octane is no longer capable of preventing the engine stumbling therefore not making a clean run start to finish? There is a very major lurch that will push you into the harness when that happens at speed.

Hey done with this one, enjoy the big $52 monthly bonus bucks.
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  #37  
Old 09-04-2018, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by heliskiier View Post
If you are all about smoking a stogie and feeling rich, "standards" are important I guess...for the rest of us common sense is OK...

You're aware of the timing adjustment, premium vs regular fuel? There's a mild performance hit with 89 octane.
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  #38  
Old 09-04-2018, 07:34 PM
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Does anyone know how often this comes up on the 'Fest? It's got to be once a month or so. Go with 93 octane.
Like clockwork:

"What gas do I need to put in my car"?
"how does everyone feel about run flat tires?"
"should I buy a 320 vs a 328/335/340"?
"what are the normal things that go wrong with these cars after 50k miles?"

OP hit two out of 4 right after he bought his car.
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  #39  
Old 09-04-2018, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by heliskiier View Post
Maybe I missed the point of your post, but 15 gallons x .30 difference between regular and high-test is $4.50 a tank and 4x a month tanking makes $18 a month. Yes I can pay for my Netflix with that. Simple math. Why should I buy what I don't need?
I was referring to the previous poster who calculated savings of $7/month (based on supposedly reduced mpg with low octane fuel + inflation adjustments, etc, so a little more complex math). But I agree with you - I am all for saving, especially when it is being spent on something you don't need. In fact, I am reading this thread with great interest because I drank the premium gas koolaid. Heck, if regular gas results in *some* power loss but no engine issues, then I need to undrink that koolaid!
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  #40  
Old 09-04-2018, 08:58 PM
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Years ago I used to put premium in my Chevy every 10 tankfuls or so thinking I was giving my engine a special treat and cleaning it out until someone explained how stupid this was.


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  #41  
Old 09-04-2018, 09:16 PM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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One systematic way to evaluate this is to do 0-30, 0-40, 0-60 with 91 then 87.

Just say 0-60 goes from 5.8 seconds to 6.0 seconds, then the car with 87 spends 3.45% additional time to get up to speed, that should directly correlate to the additional fuel consumption.

Now the missing piece is a fester volunteer to do the experiments and report back.
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  #42  
Old 09-05-2018, 03:12 AM
heliskiier heliskiier is offline
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Originally Posted by bear-avhistory View Post
You are running 11 seconds & don't understand that the graph shows timing pulls when available octane is no longer capable of preventing the engine stumbling therefore not making a clean run start to finish? There is a very major lurch that will push you into the harness when that happens at speed.

Hey done with this one, enjoy the big $52 monthly bonus bucks.
Yes, actually I have and yes u can see the difference on the graph. Thing is that my car wasn't flashed to no longer accommodate lower gasoline grade. Point is that no matter what the graph shows (oh and I'm not here to try to tell anyone that they won't see a difference on the timing pulls) you are not going to see the kind of difference that will give you more than a couple of 10ths (which is also withing the margin of error for your 60 Foot time). Now, I'f I'm driving a 9 second car tricked out to do insanity, then the wrong fuel grade will kill that motor...

Oh, and I'm not really worried about the last .5 second of the run where I'm just about trapping anyways. I'm already there.

That is one bad arse Ford you got there. Did you do significant suspension mods? Tell me what you've got under that thing. I love that car! I also love HP, but I even more love making beasts like ours the proud owners of Porche drivers at places like Road Atlanta.

Last edited by heliskiier; 09-05-2018 at 03:24 AM.
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  #43  
Old 09-05-2018, 05:36 AM
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You should worry about gas grade and if you can afford it before you purchase the car. The engineers have tuned the car to a certain grade gas. This could mess with timing of the car, lack of spark since 91+ octane ignites at a different time than 87 octane. It would just be better to not be so cheap and get the recommended gas for the car. But, we also have keyboard engineers, who know the BMW engine better than the engineers who designed, built, tested and tuned the car.
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Old 09-05-2018, 06:05 AM
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You should worry about gas grade and if you can afford it before you purchase the car. The engineers have tuned the car to a certain grade gas. This could mess with timing of the car, lack of spark since 91+ octane ignites at a different time than 87 octane. It would just be better to not be so cheap and get the recommended gas for the car. But, we also have keyboard engineers, who know the BMW engine better than the engineers who designed, built, tested and tuned the car.
Yeah, but sometimes real world experience of long term BMW owners trumps well educated and intentioned BMW engineers ....... a big reason why I like this board to share reality ........
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Old 09-05-2018, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by heliskiier View Post
Yes, actually I have and yes u can see the difference on the graph. Thing is that my car wasn't flashed to no longer accommodate lower gasoline grade. Point is that no matter what the graph shows (oh and I'm not here to try to tell anyone that they won't see a difference on the timing pulls) you are not going to see the kind of difference that will give you more than a couple of 10ths (which is also withing the margin of error for your 60 Foot time). Now, I'f I'm driving a 9 second car tricked out to do insanity, then the wrong fuel grade will kill that motor...

Oh, and I'm not really worried about the last .5 second of the run where I'm just about trapping anyways. I'm already there.

That is one bad arse Ford you got there. Did you do significant suspension mods? Tell me what you've got under that thing. I love that car! I also love HP, but I even more love making beasts like ours the proud owners of Porche drivers at places like Road Atlanta.
Timing pulls are how the engine accommodates 87 octane, runs retarded under load, graph just shows that the ECU really does make boost & timing adjustments. Personally I don't see the point in buying a car with a performance engine then yanking its leash with low octane gas. That said I do notice a majority of the 87 fans are running 328/330 cars but I have no real interest in the 4 cylinder car.

Ran enough dynos & engine logs over the years with BMW's to see better numbers with 93/94 over 91 in stock 335/435/440 engines so will leave it at that. Everybody will choose what they want anyway.

The FORD is a current design space frame chassis. Coil overs, fully adjustable double A arm rack & pinion front suspension with fully adjustable 3 link, panhard bar & LSD with 3:55 gears in a FORD 9" rear. 255X40X17 & 315X35X17 NITTO 555R tires. Modified FORD Racing COYOTE crate motor, TKO-600 5MT. 46/54 weight distribution with all major mass inside wheel centerlines, 2250lbs fueled estimated 4.2lbs per BHP.





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Last edited by bear-avhistory; 09-05-2018 at 05:13 PM.
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  #46  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:17 AM
John MS John MS is offline
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Originally Posted by lamb00j View Post
You should worry about gas grade and if you can afford it before you purchase the car. The engineers have tuned the car to a certain grade gas. This could mess with timing of the car, lack of spark since 91+ octane ignites at a different time than 87 octane. It would just be better to not be so cheap and get the recommended gas for the car. But, we also have keyboard engineers, who know the BMW engine better than the engineers who designed, built, tested and tuned the car.
+1
I'm going with the recommendations of trained engineers, metallurgists, chemists, etc., at BMW who designed and built the car. Not unreliable anecdotes and opinions found online.

And for much the same reasons I'm following BMW advice for other forum favorites...oil change frequency and oil type.
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Old 09-05-2018, 09:24 AM
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My mom had a 2014 X1 and it was recommended (minimum) to use 89, but she used 87 for 1 year and for the next 3 years of the lease, the car was running so bad even putting premium 91 didn't help the problem. And no there were not any other engine issues.
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Old 09-05-2018, 10:58 AM
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I'm going with the recommendations of trained engineers, metallurgists, chemists, etc., at BMW who designed and built the car. Not unreliable anecdotes and opinions found online.

And for much the same reasons I'm following BMW advice for other forum favorites...oil change frequency and oil type.
Here's a summary of those recommendations for tbraithw's U.S. market 2018 320i:

Fuel - gasoline recommendations
  • Adheres to ASTM D4814-11b
  • Fuel should contain no lead or other metals
  • 89 AKI for normal use
  • 91 AKI or higher for track use or other high-performance driving
  • Maximum ethanol percentage: 10
  • Detergency/additive package exceeding EPA LAC requirements (e.g., TOP TIER) is preferable
  • Fuel tank capacity: 15.8 gallons (60 liters)

Engine oil recommendations
  • Standards & approvals: ACEA A1/B1 and BMW LL-14 FE+
  • Viscosity grade: 0W-20
  • Oil & filter change interval: Every 10,000 mi. or 12 months (minimum of one oil change per year)
  • Oil fill capacity: 5 liters
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  #49  
Old 09-05-2018, 11:18 AM
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And for much the same reasons I'm following BMW advice for other forum favorites...oil change frequency and oil type.
So your OCI is per CBS 15k miles then? My slight concern is the turbo and whether 15k-mile OCI will quicken turbo's demise, my turbo is covered by BMWNA 15-yr/150k-mile, so it may not be too bad.
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Old 09-05-2018, 11:20 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
Here's a summary of those recommendations for tbraithw's U.S. market 2018 320i:

Fuel - gasoline recommendations
  • Adheres to ASTM D4814-11b
  • Fuel should contain no lead or other metals
  • 89 AKI for normal use
  • 91 AKI or higher for track use or other high-performance driving
  • Maximum ethanol percentage: 10
  • Detergency/additive package exceeding EPA LAC requirements (e.g., TOP TIER) is preferable
  • Fuel tank capacity: 15.8 gallons (60 liters)

Engine oil recommendations
  • Standards & approvals: ACEA A1/B1 and BMW LL-14 FE+
  • Viscosity grade: 0W-20
  • Oil & filter change interval: Every 10,000 mi. or 12 months (minimum of one oil change per year)
  • Oil fill capacity: 5 liters
LL14FE+ is LCI spec though, right?

My 2013 CBS OCI is 15k miles/2 years, my actuall OCI is around 7-8k miles//10 months, so it looks like it fits the new post-2014 10k miles/1 year interval.
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