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The sixth generation BMW 3 Series Sedan F30/F31/F34 and the first first generation 4 Series Coupe F32/F33/F36. Get the latest 3 and 4 series pricing from our ordering and pricing guide sticky thread.

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  #76  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:40 AM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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Lease is to purchase as investment is to transportation
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  #77  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:49 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Lease is to purchase as investment is to transportation
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  #78  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:12 AM
rpickoff rpickoff is offline
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Lease is to purchase as investment is to transportation
Transportation (noun): the action of transporting someone or something.

My Ultimate Driving Machine had difficulty fulfilling this role.
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  #79  
Old 07-09-2019, 11:41 AM
Closem Joe Closem Joe is online now
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It's all depends which problem you're solving for. I made my last car payment in 1983 and never played the interest game again. That was for a 69 350/350 Corvette. Driven well, but not into the ground. I sold it after 27 years because it no longer fit an old man's back. Made money on it too.

If you don't have the time, you don't have the time.
Zod, I agree with you. I bought my 2005 Chevy SSR hard top vert back in 10/04 for roughly $49,000 and sold it at the end of 2017 for $24,000 when I picked up my new 18 440 vert. I enjoyed the hell out of the SSR for all that time and I'm very happy with the price I sold it for. Ordering a car exactly the way you want it with all the options you want and keeping it for a good period of time, IMHO is the way to go to get a good bang for your buck and a custom car built just for you. No compromises! Why settle, life is short!

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  #80  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:22 PM
bmwexpat bmwexpat is offline
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Originally Posted by Closem Joe View Post
Zod, I agree with you. I bought my 2005 Chevy SSR hard top vert back in 10/04 for roughly $49,000 and sold it at the end of 2017 for $24,000 when I picked up my new 18 440 vert. I enjoyed the hell out of the SSR for all that time and I'm very happy with the price I sold it for. Ordering a car exactly the way you want it with all the options you want and keeping it for a good period of time, IMHO is the way to go to get a good bang for your buck and a custom car built just for you. No compromises! Why settle, life is short!

Joe
Buying new does have advantages and is always fun as you are the first owner and that does have value for the individual buyer. Buying new can make sense if one takes the time to do some homework on what the expected value is a few years down the road. Say take a $60K car and in 3 years it's worth $30K. If you know that going in and have the financial resources that overall it's not a big financial deal to you, then it works. If you keep the car longer then the depreciation factor tends to flatten out and works even better for you.

What works for me is to use the various online resources like Auto-trader, Carvana, and others to shop 2-3 year old cars online. Being in California, if I throw a 500+ mile radius in the search parameter, I'm looking at roughly 20-25% of the auto population of the US. With some patience I've found the exact model with the exact options and color I wanted. For the last 2 purchases I negotiated the final price over the phone, and put a deposit down with a credit card to hold the car. Later in the week we drove down to LA or San Diego to inspect and test drive the car and sign-off on the final paperwork. There was about a years worth of warranty left on the vehicle so I was covered if anything was seriously wrong and if by chance there was a chronic issue, I could dump the car without a major loss and be done.

As we are only a couple of years away from retirement, my wife and I have agreed it's time in 2020 to buy one last slightly used dream car that the two of us and a dog can travel in as well as crank in a few more track days before I get to old to enjoy. Life is good now but I am looking forward to 2020 and shopping for that next unique gem
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  #81  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:25 PM
Kestas Kestas is offline
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I'm in the camp of buying lightly used where it has markedly depreciated. I just bought my 2015 320i that way. It allows me to enjoy a high end car on a pedestrian budget.
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  #82  
Old 07-10-2019, 10:59 AM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
Here's the actual cost data for my 2014 535i for the first five years, and project costs for the next four years. The important metric is "MDI&P:" the sum of maintenance, deprecation, interest, and property tax." Buying and keeping nine years will save me about $25k over leasing a new 5-whatever-i every three years.
Whip out your other spreadsheet, will you? The one that shows how much you save by cutting your own hair (assuming you still have any?) sewing your own clothes, growing your own food, and drinking home brew instead of Sam Adams or Bombay Sapphire.

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On Planet Putzer having an older car in good shape is a status symbol, a sign of diligence and intelligence.
I guess it depends on the neighborhood. On Planet Quack, driving a 9 year old car is a sign of a lack of imagination, and/or inability to adapt to new technology. Where's the fun in that?

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Originally Posted by Desertnate View Post
I've leased one car before and the thing which bothered me the most was the mileage caps.
What is a mileage cap? I've leased about a dozen Bimmers and have never seen a mileage cap. In fact, the Family Quack routinely drives its cars for 5,000 to 15,000 miles over the mileage allowance in the lease. There is a cost to that, which is easily quantified: I know in advance, to the penny, how much those extra miles are going to cost me.

The well-kept secret is that leasing arguably makes the MOST sense if you drive high miles. The fallacy is that driving high miles in a LEASED vehicle somehow costs more than driving high miles in a PURCHASED vehicle. Remember how this thread started? The guy complaining about the depreciation on his high mileage trade-in?

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Originally Posted by bmwexpat View Post
Buying new does have advantages and is always fun as you are the first owner and that does have value for the individual buyer.
The same applies to leasing new. And if you like your car well-optioned (Individual paint or leather; Port Installed Accessories) leasing has another hidden advantage: That stuff is added into the "cap cost" and residualized over the term of the lease. In the case of my son's 340, the M Performance chip and exhaust and the CF rear spoiler added +/- $4,500 to the sticker. If we'd bought the car, they would probably add $-0- to the trade-in value. But by leasing, we've only paying for 42% of the options over the term of the lease (the other 58% is residualized).

My next BMW will likely be an M550 with Individual Paint, Individual Leather, Ceramic Controls and some M Performance bits. All stuff I'd never add to a car I purchased, but luxuries I can enjoy if BMWFS subsidizes my lease by residualizing those items.

To each his own, but I'd rather spend the rest of my time on this mortal coil driving stuff that excites me, rather than working on spreadsheets.
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  #83  
Old 07-10-2019, 11:24 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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I get a hair cut about once a year, if I need it or not. The last time, the hair cutter at the next chair looked down on the floor and said "Oh, look... a puppy dog!"

Actually, I got my last one about two months early. I had a meeting the next week with an attorney, and I needed to make myself look... well... sane and innocent.

The duck has a point about high annual mileage and leasing, though. Those extra miles are the cheapest ones in a lease. Also, leasing can make sense if you can slip a luxury car lease in as a business expense. That's like having the gooberment pay 40 percent of the cost.
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  #84  
Old 07-10-2019, 01:07 PM
jwalz1 jwalz1 is offline
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Originally Posted by bmwexpat View Post
Buying new does have advantages

European Delivery.

Most of the rest is becoming huge downside, especially with BMW's new "Get less for your money!" options, MSRP, and covered maintenance strategy.
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  #85  
Old 07-10-2019, 06:11 PM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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I'm philosophically opposed to car loans, except for one's first appliance car. But with the $500 credit for financing and 1.9% interest rate, even I financed our most recent BMW. I bought a 2.3% CD with the "car money."

I actually put the remaining cost of the car, about 10%, on my BMW FS Visa card, earning 4% rebates. So, like in the VW commercials, I did a "sign and drive." The BMW FS Visa card rewards description says 4% rebates at "BMW Centers." But, down in the fine print it says you get that at any car dealership. I get a special price on GM cars. So, my beaters are always GM cars bought new. I'm due for a new one next spring. I'm going to put a lot of it on my BMW FS Visa, too.
hard to be philosophically opposed to car loans during the whole 0%-1% era, or any financing rate substantially lower than the opportunity cost of using the cash for some investment.

I'm philosophically, morally, and outright opposed to the finance for credit gimmickery.

I wouldn't get caught in the financing for credit gimmickery, because BMW is counting on people being lazy and stupid, which is exactly what happens 98.314% of the time. I just helped a friend buy a new BMW, and the dealership kept threw the whole finance for credit gimmickery and argued you need to keep for four months then you can pay off, but you still make out because of the credit amount, argument. I just said no and gave them my, errr, my friend's out the door number, and told them I don't care how they get to the number, but not gonna do the finance for credit gimmickery. shockingly (not) they met the price without the finance for credit gimmickery.
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  #86  
Old 07-10-2019, 06:13 PM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Originally Posted by bmwexpat View Post
As we are only a couple of years away from retirement, my wife and I have agreed it's time in 2020 to buy one last slightly used dream car that the two of us and a dog can travel in as well as crank in a few more track days before I get to old to enjoy. Life is good now but I am looking forward to 2020 and shopping for that next unique gem
sounds like you the perfect Subaru target audience.
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  #87  
Old 07-10-2019, 06:38 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
hard to be philosophically opposed to car loans during the whole 0%-1% era, or any financing rate substantially lower than the opportunity cost of using the cash for some investment.

I'm philosophically, morally, and outright opposed to the finance for credit gimmickery.

I wouldn't get caught in the financing for credit gimmickery, because BMW is counting on people being lazy and stupid, which is exactly what happens 98.314% of the time. I just helped a friend buy a new BMW, and the dealership kept threw the whole finance for credit gimmickery and argued you need to keep for four months then you can pay off, but you still make out because of the credit amount, argument. I just said no and gave them my, errr, my friend's out the door number, and told them I don't care how they get to the number, but not gonna do the finance for credit gimmickery. shockingly (not) they met the price without the finance for credit gimmickery.
There's usually an additional cash discount available in lieu of the subsidized loans.

Most people think that having a perpetual car payment is normal. They figure out what monthly payment(s) they can tolerate, see how long they can drag out paying off a loan, and then buy a car of the corresponding cost.

Military credit unions now have seven year car loans on new cars. Military credit unions' loss rates on car loans are low, and those long car loans attract a lot of military members to join.

Consumer car leasing is the perpetual car loan on steroids, with the same effect: Get the customer into the most car that his monthly cash flow can tolerate... and keep him there forevah.

Even Porsche offers the financing credit offers. I talked to a 911 buyer who was probably a deca-millionaire, and who financed his car before paying it off in four months. He said "Hey, a $1000 is a $1000."

Last edited by Autoputzer; 07-10-2019 at 07:05 PM.
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  #88  
Old 07-11-2019, 04:36 PM
bmwexpat bmwexpat is offline
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sounds like you the perfect Subaru target audience.
I do like the Subaru dog commercials. However our pooch is a Porsche girl. She loves the back seat with the top off.

My plan is to pick up a used Porsche 991.2 Turbo S sometime around the third quarter of 2020. The new 992 Turbos S will be out late this fall and that will have the current Turbo S owners starting to dump out their current 991's and dump the used values by another $10-20K. As I've stated I'm very happy to let the original owner eat that first major hit in depreciation. In the case of a Turbo S that is around $80K. From that point on the depreciation really flattens out. Figure we can drive it for 3 years and maybe lose another 20K in value. If we keep it 5-10 years the value will start to rise again. Either way it will be fun to have 2 very different era Porsche's in the garage.

My wife wants me to sell the E46 M3 but I can store it at my sons house or find an offsite storage. Like that juvenile delinquent to mush to sell it.

Oh yeah, tell me again how leasing lets you drive those really cool middle of the road cars and never actually own anything substantial.
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  #89  
Old 07-11-2019, 07:52 PM
dzlbimmer dzlbimmer is offline
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.
In all fairness, collecting decent cars long term is more difficult on the east coast than west coast because of climate and salt differences.
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  #90  
Old 07-11-2019, 08:51 PM
bmwexpat bmwexpat is offline
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No question. Grew up on a farm in NY state. Winter and road salt destroyed a lot of poor as well as classic cars.

Our Porsche is almost 50 years old and not a spec of rust., but she has lived her life 100% on the West Coast.
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  #91  
Old 07-12-2019, 06:03 AM
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Desertnate Desertnate is offline
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
What is a mileage cap? I've leased about a dozen Bimmers and have never seen a mileage cap. In fact, the Family Quack routinely drives its cars for 5,000 to 15,000 miles over the mileage allowance in the lease. There is a cost to that, which is easily quantified: I know in advance, to the penny, how much those extra miles are going to cost me.
The vehicle I leased wasn't a BMW, but I was referring to the milage allowance. I couldn't think of the correct term at that time.

I too knew exactly how much the additional mileage would cost me, but had no desire to pay for it.
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  #92  
Old 07-12-2019, 10:09 AM
John MS John MS is offline
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Quote:
There's usually an additional cash discount available in lieu of the subsidized loans.
Yup. Gotta ask though.
Quote:
Most people think that having a perpetual car payment is normal. They figure out what monthly payment(s) they can tolerate, see how long they can drag out paying off a loan, and then buy a car of the corresponding cost.

Military credit unions now have seven year car loans on new cars. Military credit unions' loss rates on car loans are low, and those long car loans attract a lot of military members to join
.
Seven years to finance a car...wow!!! Unless the rate is <.5% it makes no sense to finance that long.

Quote:
Consumer car leasing is the perpetual car loan on steroids, with the same effect: Get the customer into the most car that his monthly cash flow can tolerate... and keep him there forevah.
Just keep paying that heavy first 3 years depreciation over and over and BMW will love you.
Quote:
Even Porsche offers the financing credit offers. I talked to a 911 buyer who was probably a deca-millionaire, and who financed his car before paying it off in four months. He said "Hey, a $1000 is a $1000.
No matter the brand they are all dealerships staffed by sales people whose sole interest is moving cars. And that credit is surely available to cash buyers too.

Last edited by John MS; 07-12-2019 at 10:11 AM.
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