signs of F30 N20/N26 timing chain issue, and OCI to the rescue? - Page 2 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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  #26  
Old 04-25-2017, 03:28 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morpheus991 View Post
Do you know if the 2015 part is interchangeable with the 2014?
Online parts list says the old part# ended, and only the new part# is available for my MY13 N26.

Last edited by namelessman; 04-25-2017 at 03:43 PM.
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  #27  
Old 04-26-2017, 08:40 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
There's no documentation. There are anecdotal stories. Mine is of a 2014 that had 65,000 miles with 10,000 mile oil changes based on BMW specs. Ran like a top.
exactly.
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  #28  
Old 04-26-2017, 08:43 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Considering we are now six years on down the road, whatever this "plan" is, is rather dubious. One tech even the foreman of one shop is anecdotal. I'd like to see actual evidence that the timing chain has actually stretched, over failures of the plastic guides and rails.
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  #29  
Old 04-26-2017, 09:52 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
Considering we are now six years on down the road, whatever this "plan" is, is rather dubious. One tech even the foreman of one shop is anecdotal. I'd like to see actual evidence that the timing chain has actually stretched, over failures of the plastic guides and rails.
This is a thread from X3 sub-forum, post#16 has a picture of the broken chain guides. It is unclear(without official acknowledgement) if the failure is stretched chain that causes guides to break, or weakened guides that cause chain to stretch.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=912547

The thread has a doc that lists several other accounts of similar failures.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...AH4/edit#gid=0

There is also an article dated July 2015 on another account of the chain failure.

http://www.rightfootdown.com/cars/au...nents-n26-too/
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  #30  
Old 04-26-2017, 09:53 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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FYI, this is a video of an indy showing the N20 timing chain replacement and the old guides. At least in this video the guides are not shattered as in other pictures.


Last edited by namelessman; 04-26-2017 at 10:03 AM.
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  #31  
Old 04-26-2017, 09:59 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Here is another 2 videos of an F30 before and after the chain replacement. At least my car sounds as good as the "after replacement" clip, so mine is good, for now.

Before:


After:
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  #32  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:05 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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A discussion with a coworker from UK led me to the following link which describes yet another 4-cylinder timing chain problem with his N47 in E90 320d.

In that engine, just like B48/B58, the timing chain is mounted in the rear. According to the tech on the video, it is BMW's statement that "this timing chain and drive mechanism is built to last the lifetime of the engine". The stretched timing chain needed an "engine out .... open heart surgery" as described in the link.

At least N20/N26 is built with the timing chain in front! Big thanks to the Munich engineers to at least remember serviceability.

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  #33  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:32 AM
Morpheus991 Morpheus991 is offline
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This is all great info. I'm glad I know what to listen for. I'm taking my newly purchased car in next week for some wind noise in the cabin. I tried asking about the chain... no luck. I guess I'll just try and enjoy my car and hope for the best.
The service repair Tech mentioned that there were a couple fixes already in place for the n20, a couple bolts here and there from what I gathered.

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  #34  
Old 04-27-2017, 12:53 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by Morpheus991 View Post
This is all great info. I'm glad I know what to listen for. I'm taking my newly purchased car in next week for some wind noise in the cabin. I tried asking about the chain... no luck. I guess I'll just try and enjoy my car and hope for the best.
The service repair Tech mentioned that there were a couple fixes already in place for the n20, a couple bolts here and there from what I gathered.
Did the tech mention there is already a SIB(service info bulletin) on the F30 timing chain? If so please share the SIB number.

If your car is still covered by new car warranty/CPO the tech will definitely repair/replace if needed(they are very proficient at finding chargeable items).

It is also good that indies(including my local ones) are looking into this. Currently the book time of this job is 10 hours of labor, but usually indies will figure out an expedited way and/or invent ingenious tools to speed up the jobs(and at times BMW purchases these tools themselves!).

Another tidbit is that, my UK coworker was contemplating a MY17 340i purchase, which is around $8500 off MSRP with fleet discount. But his jaw dropped when he was told the B58's timing chain is in the rear, just like his ill-fated N47!!!

Last edited by namelessman; 04-27-2017 at 01:00 AM.
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  #35  
Old 04-27-2017, 05:33 AM
e90fanatic e90fanatic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
There's no documentation. There are anecdotal stories. Mine is of a 2014 that had 65,000 miles with 10,000 mile oil changes based on BMW specs. Ran like a top.


Agreed. Mine had 65000 km and no issues. I do change oil between the factory OCI. Also I warm up the engine before going 80+ mph and keep rev below 3000. My new 5 (F10) already has engine flushed, oem 0w30 and ceratec in. Smooth as butter and quiet...


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  #36  
Old 04-27-2017, 08:16 AM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
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How do you warm up your engine? You don't sit around idling right because that doesn't do anything.

Also, use liqui moly 5w40 for your next oil change far more engine protection
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  #37  
Old 04-27-2017, 08:26 AM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
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BMW engines are slowly becoming less and less serviceable. More $$$ for them through the dealer. Back in the days of the e30 you would get your own little toolkit to service the engine. The e46 was the last model that still had an easy to service motor before the introduction of the n52 and n52 in 2006/ 2007 respectively. They were both reliable motors especially the n52, but simply required lots of little things here and there to keep running. But the motors themselves just keep going and going. The n52 has been documented to reach 300k miles and still be running just fine. These motors purposely became much More difficult to DIY then the days of the e46, but at least they were still reliable. Now, fast forward to the new b48 and b58? You can't even service it at all now!! I just really hope they live up to BMW engines of the past. The outgoing n55 motor was reliable and long lasting for a turbo engine.

Also.. another thing to consider is that you can always end up with a lemon engine just like it's possible to end up with a lemon vehicle. Chances these days of this happening is rare, but it can happen. For example while the n52 is more or less a solid and proven motor, some people have complete failures and tons of issues at 120k. I have 75k and I'll I've ever had to change was an ignition coil. I follow 5000 mile oil changes and the engine runs just like it did from day one.. all gaskets, everything is perfect. It's actually quite common for gaskets to be replaced at this mileage but mine are all perfect. One thing to consider with your gaskets is that modern BMW's run hot due to the electric pumps, and this extra heat affects the longetivity of your gaskets. I keep my plastic engine cover removed during warmer weather and it helps stabilize temps by over 50f... the engine runs optimally at 210f oil temp because this means the coolant can keep cylinder head temps at an optimal level of performance and the whole thing runs better.

I just really hope that b48/b58 end up being reliable...
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  #38  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:22 AM
e90fanatic e90fanatic is offline
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signs of F30 N20/N26 timing chain issue, and OCI to the rescue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by F10-N52 View Post
How do you warm up your engine? You don't sit around idling right because that doesn't do anything.

Also, use liqui moly 5w40 for your next oil change far more engine protection


U warm it up by driving normally and keep rpms low. Liqui moly isn't the answer for everything, I only use their ceratec since their oil is not certified by BMWs latest standard. My guy tried to push royal purple but I wanted to stick to oem for now


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Last edited by e90fanatic; 04-27-2017 at 09:23 AM.
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  #39  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:38 AM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
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Royal purple is **** don't use that.

Liqui moly 5w40 is the best for your car hands down
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  #40  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:46 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by e90fanatic View Post
Agreed. Mine had 65000 km and no issues. I do change oil between the factory OCI. Also I warm up the engine before going 80+ mph and keep rev below 3000. My new 5 (F10) already has engine flushed, oem 0w30 and ceratec in. Smooth as butter and quiet...


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So is ceratec some form of engine oil additive? LL01FE oil supposedly is quite advanced already for engine protection, right?

It is good to hear there is no issue at 65000km, or 40000 miles. So was the car a lease [email protected] miles? In general back-to-back lessees at 50k or even 65k miles do not need to worry about reliability issues, which tend to start showing up around 80-100k and beyond.

Now the hope is that BMWAG does not just engineer their cars for lessees and 65k miles, and forget about long-term owners(like myself and others) and skip on long-term reliability, availability, and serviceability.
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  #41  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:57 AM
e90fanatic e90fanatic is offline
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signs of F30 N20/N26 timing chain issue, and OCI to the rescue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
So is ceratec some form of engine oil additive? LL01FE oil supposedly is quite advanced already for engine protection, right?

It is good to hear there is no issue at 65000km, or 40000 miles. So was the car a lease [email protected] miles? In general back-to-back lessees at 50k or even 65k miles do not need to worry about reliability issues, which tend to start showing up around 80-100k and beyond.

Now the hope is that BMWAG does not just engineer their cars for lessees and 65k miles, and forget about long-term owners(like myself and others) and skip on long-term reliability, availability, and serviceability.


Yes ceratec is an additive by liquimoly. I did notice an improvement immediately following the change. I didn't care about the reliability of the x3 as I knew I'd return it after lease but with the F10 I'm keeping it for longer term. In fact BMWs new 0w-20 is LL14FE which is even more advanced. Either way I'm sticking to my regiment and keep changes around 6k km. Never had engine issues with any of my cars. My last long term care was 335 and never had engine issues for 6 years... Other than fuel and water pump failures


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Last edited by e90fanatic; 04-27-2017 at 11:00 AM.
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  #42  
Old 04-27-2017, 09:36 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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FYI, the link in post#1 shows picture of shiny patches on links of a stretched timing chain, which can be inspected through the oil cap opening as shown in video below.


Last edited by namelessman; 04-28-2017 at 12:06 AM.
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  #44  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:34 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by momazacg View Post
namelessman , That's My Video so here are more pictures of the current timing chain i have which dealers says it's normal.
How many miles are on your F30? Mine has 45k miles and the metal links that can be seen from the oil cap opening have zero marking/shiny patches.

The first few pictures in your post seems to have minor shiny patches similar to the bmwtechnician pictures ....
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  #45  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:43 AM
momazacg momazacg is offline
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i have around 85K KM , have been already in he service day ago and they said sound is normal and chain in a perfect condition , i'm still in the warrant so i'm gonna push hard on the car and see how things will goes

here are also some videos i did record no whistle inside the car but outside after 5RPM u start to hear it





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  #46  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:49 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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The outside video clips seem to be direct injector noise. The inside cabin video clips sound similar to mine(which has zero shiny patches on chain), so maybe the wear is still relatively minimal at this time. Please keep us informed. BTW it is great that the chain(at least parts of it) can be easily inspected, thanks for posting that video.
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  #47  
Old 04-28-2017, 09:53 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by momazacg View Post
i have around 85K KM , have been already in he service day ago and they said sound is normal and chain in a perfect condition , i'm still in the warrant so i'm gonna push hard on the car and see how things will goes
BTW what is your oil change interval? And is your car modded and/or tracked?
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  #48  
Old 04-28-2017, 10:00 AM
momazacg momazacg is offline
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you welcome man , i have been discovering about this issue for over three 2 months , first time i went to the dealer they said nothing wrong with ur car but the fear from some pepole posts made me search and ispect if i do have that problem cause no body can tell what is happening and bmw are denying every where they have an issue , which my self don't know

but from what i have heard that there are three kind of noise

1-Ticking Noise ( That's the normal thing )

2-Rattle Noise (that can be two things
A- If the rattle are coming when you hit your gaz then that's a timig chain issue
B- If the rattle after you leave your gaz then it's wastegate

3_ Whistle Noise ( this are coming from the oil pump chain )
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  #49  
Old 04-28-2017, 10:02 AM
momazacg momazacg is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
BTW what is your oil change interval? And is your car modded and/or tracked?
no i have no moods at all , oil change is around each 10K KM but i drive always says 12000 KM but i do change it at 10000KM sometimes each 9000KM
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  #50  
Old 04-28-2017, 10:05 AM
F10-N52 F10-N52 is offline
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Be careful with this. The rattling sound won't always mean timing chain. Rattling sound when you rev the car could sometimes be valves.
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