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Old 06-12-2016, 02:07 AM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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DPF soot rising very quickly prompting too frequent regens?

firstly - sorry, I've posted a flurry of questions lately. I really do appreciate the help of everyone that is providing valuable advice.

------

Now - my 2007 X5 3.0d with 125,000km (have owned it for 1 year) had the dreaded 'DPF Blocked' message twice 3-4 months ago. After repeated forced regens, I had the thermostats changed thanks to advice on this forum and in particular edycol - which got my regens happening again. Somehow 2 mechanics did not think to look at the thermostats.

I recently got the Carly app and have been happily watching regens now occur on the highway. Problem is - the regens are occurring very frequently, and the soot level is climbing very quickly after each regen.

Before a regen, Carly tells me soot mass is around 42g, and ash mass is about 36g.

Immediately after a regen, the soot mass drops to 4g. But then within 3 minutes of continued highway driving the soot mass has climbed right back to 25g, and then within 30-40 minutes the soot mass is back up to around 40-42g. The last 4 or so regens (since I've had the carly app) have occurred about every 80km.

I'm not seeing any warning lights on the idrive/dash, but using Carly I can see an intermittent 'hidden' fault appearing which is

- Fault: Particle filter system
- Code: 004667

So - Why would the soot mass be rising so quickly? Could it be that its so clogged with ash that repeated regens are having little benefit? While I don't know specifically what oil I have in the engine, that was my BMW indy mechanics first thought 3 months ago when he serviced it for the first time, and we're now making sure BMW approved low ash oil is in it and being changed every 6 months from now on.

I am unaware of what oil was used prior to me owning the car, service records were in order BUT, the timing chain broke after the oil pump seized 2 months into ownership. Thats another thread yet to be written - but I'm mentioning it here as there's a suspicion it didn't have the right oil used in its earlier life, so perhaps that has shortened the life of the DPF...

I know of a place in Sydney (http://www.dpfcleaning.com.au/) that will clean the DPF for around $750 depending on what they find. Or I'm wondering if my DPF is one of the ones that are easily removable and I could attempt a DIY clean like this - http://5series.net/forums/diy-do-you...nce-dpf-94725/.

Any thoughts on either of those options - or whats going on?

I love how this car drives but the list of things to fix has aged me a few extra years I guess the wonders of computers is making me aware of things I would have otherwise not seen.

Thankyou, Pete

-----

PS: At the same time I'm researching a glow plug error code - likely the controller module, heres that thread, and I have had at least some oil in the turbo air intake, and likely the intercooler (thread) - I'm mentioning these in case they could have some relevance to this specific DPF issue.

Last edited by AU Pete; 06-12-2016 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 06-12-2016, 05:00 AM
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OTR - Over The Road - tractors' DPF are intended to be removed and cleaned periodically by third party contractors. I pray that service will be available for automotive DPF at an economical fraction of the removal/replacement cost.
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:17 PM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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At this point I'm considering trying an additive that I'm expecting won't make much difference - but if it's only a few dollars, maybe worth the gamble...

http://m.supercheapauto.com.au/Produ...ae-Stop/347774

Thoughts?

Could a fuel additive like that cause more problems than it tries to fix?
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Old 06-12-2016, 03:32 PM
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Could a fuel additive like that cause more problems than it tries to fix?
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:20 PM
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Just a question...HOW does the system calculate soot and ash mass??? Im not sure I trust those measurements as accurate. Either the low value right after regen or the second reading minutes later....
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:24 PM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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Just a question...HOW does the system calculate soot and ash mass??? Im not sure I trust those measurements as accurate. Either the low value right after regen or the second reading minutes later....

I'm curious about that too. I suspect it's a guess based on the distance the DPF has done, combined with some back pressure values from some sensors. There's a looooong list of parameters available in Carly to monitor - so I'll try to decipher some of those to get some raw sensor values...
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:04 PM
ninja_zx11 ninja_zx11 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Just a question...HOW does the system calculate soot and ash mass??? Im not sure I trust those measurements as accurate. Either the low value right after regen or the second reading minutes later....
I think DDE calculates the flow resistance of the DPF by monitoring the pressure difference between readings before and after particulate filter to calculate the soot load.
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Old 06-12-2016, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ninja_zx11 View Post
I think DDE calculates the flow resistance of the DPF by monitoring the pressure difference between readings before and after particulate filter to calculate the soot load.
One possibility:

It may be the computer sets the value to 0 immediately after a regen, based on the assumption it has just been cleaned/emptied...but then, rapidly, as you drive the sensors (flow resistance, pressure differentials) become apparent and the computer then recalculates the soot load.

Which would mean it isnt creating massive amounts of soot and clogging, rather it is clogged and remains clogs- OR the sensors that are used to calculate the loads are somehow in error....

Just my 2 cents...have not paid much attention to this.
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OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:27 PM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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DPF soot rising very quickly prompting too frequent regens?

For all I know this process of repeated short regens may be completely normal for the computer to action after a long period of no regens / blockage
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Old 06-12-2016, 02:38 PM
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Last I looked, my average mileage between regenerations was a bit more than 150 miles.
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Old 06-12-2016, 08:14 PM
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Hmmm, for me red flag is seized oil pump. Why it seized? It could be that:
1. Wrong oil was used
2. That when oil pump seized DPF got clogged with more oil vapors then what it would be normal and that due to the amount of oil regeneration cannot burn it.
I am not sure whether I would believe those measurements on Carly.
This is my 5 cents. It could be just that wrong oil was used before you became an owner together with heavy city driving.
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:50 AM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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Originally Posted by edycol View Post
Hmmm, for me red flag is seized oil pump. Why it seized? It could be that:
1. Wrong oil was used
2. That when oil pump seized DPF got clogged with more oil vapors then what it would be normal
Yep - and that unknown has caused me a lot of stress, at the time, and now in trying to minimise future problems.

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Originally Posted by n1das View Post
I think something is causing the engine to make a lot of soot and that needs to be found and taken care of ASAP. Could be something as simple as a boost leak and causing it to roll coal. Could be a number of other things. If the car didn't have a DPF you probably would see it as visible black smoke ("rolling coal").
Thank you - makes sense (the DPF hiding smoke/warning signs).
I think I'm going to have to see my indy mechanic.

The car is using ZERO oil... literally not dropping a mm on the dipstick over the last few months and I'm checking it weekly.

My mechanic at the last service was concerned about some oil in the turbo air intake hose, and thus the longevity of the turbo. He was concerned that, given the history with the oil pump seizing, that the turbo oil supply line might be less than great, and over time it might starve of oil. But theres no sign of it failing - or using any oil at all. And it drives great. I don't really have anything to compare it to, but in sport mode in particular its *quick*. No lag, no flat spots - pulls hard all the way to redline.

Last edited by AU Pete; 06-13-2016 at 03:16 AM.
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Old 06-13-2016, 08:40 AM
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Yep - and that unknown has caused me a lot of stress, at the time, and now in trying to minimise future problems.



Thank you - makes sense (the DPF hiding smoke/warning signs).
I think I'm going to have to see my indy mechanic.

The car is using ZERO oil... literally not dropping a mm on the dipstick over the last few months and I'm checking it weekly.

My mechanic at the last service was concerned about some oil in the turbo air intake hose, and thus the longevity of the turbo. He was concerned that, given the history with the oil pump seizing, that the turbo oil supply line might be less than great, and over time it might starve of oil. But theres no sign of it failing - or using any oil at all. And it drives great. I don't really have anything to compare it to, but in sport mode in particular its *quick*. No lag, no flat spots - pulls hard all the way to redline.
I would also zero in on turbo oil supply line and change it. I am not sure why oil pump seized, but some VW engines seized due to wrong oil being used and that line might have some sludge left in.
Oil in turbo intake hose is I believe evaporation loss of oil you are using. Switch to something more stable like Mobil1 5W30 ESP, Shell Helix Ultra (very low evaporation loss) that meet LL-04.
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Old 06-19-2016, 04:43 PM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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I've not had a chance to get the car to the mechanic yet.

But just researching causes of excessive soot, (still 50% suspecting Carly may be reporting incorrect figures, but researching excessive soot causes anyway) on this other board they mention a blocked 'turbo breather' would be a creator of soot problems which generally doesn't cause power issues. Is this part the same as the 'crankcase breather filter'?

It's possible I have the old "sponge / loo role breather" - so changing to a newer Vortex filter may be in order...? it doesn't look like it was changed as part of recent services, and i have no history beyond a year back

Plausible cause of soot in this case and good thing to change anyway?

I figured it looked like an easy DIY so something i could do prior to seeing mechanic

Last edited by AU Pete; 06-19-2016 at 05:04 PM.
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Old 06-19-2016, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by PotsyDriver View Post
I've not had a chance to get the car to the mechanic yet.

But just researching causes of excessive soot, (still 50% suspecting Carly may be reporting incorrect figures, but researching excessive soot causes anyway) on this other board they mention a blocked 'turbo breather' would be a creator of soot problems which generally doesn't cause power issues. Is this part the same as the 'crankcase breather filter'?

It's possible I have the old "sponge / loo role breather" - so changing to a newer Vortex filter may be in order...? it doesn't look like it was changed as part of recent services, and i have no history beyond a year back

Plausible cause of soot in this case and good thing to change anyway?

I figured it looked like an easy DIY so something i could do prior to seeing mechanic
if it is breather probably wrong oil was used.
I always stay amazed when people say: oh I use "synthetic" oil. Yeah, but what synthetic oil s more important.
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Old 06-12-2016, 09:45 PM
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I think something is causing the engine to make a lot of soot and that needs to be found and taken care of ASAP. Could be something as simple as a boost leak and causing it to roll coal. Could be a number of other things. If the car didn't have a DPF you probably would see it as visible black smoke ("rolling coal").

Visible smoke from a diesel without a DPF previously was useful as a diagnostic tool. By paying attention to the amount of smoke, type of smoke, and the conditions when it is produced, you could get an idea of what's going on inside the engine. Now with our DPF equipped diesels, the DPF does a good job of "hiding" smoke such that it's possible to have a soot problem and not know it until the DPF is loaded up prematurely. That means it's important to stay on top of all maintenance and quickly take care of anything that would cause the engine to make a lot of soot.

I think the DPF is OK but something is causing the engine to roll coal and load the DPF up very quickly.

Good luck.

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Old 06-13-2016, 05:33 AM
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I think something is causing the engine to make a lot of soot and that needs to be found and taken care of ASAP.
The cause of massive soot is retarded injection timing. At the same time, your MPG and power would be greatly diminished.

If your MPG is perfectly normal, then you are not making excessive soot.
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Old 07-04-2016, 05:55 PM
f30jojo f30jojo is offline
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I don't use Carly for many reasons (mainly there are stories of ECU hiccups), I use a scangauge. Which monitors tons of parameters but can show 4 at a time. I monitor exhaust temp before oxidation, voltage and coolant temperature. I've done tons of research and I conclude the following (and answer a few FAQ).

1. Will regens start if the thermostat is faulty? Absolutely, long story short I've seen regens begin at just over 140f. Moreover, depending on the parameters your ecu chooses for engine temperature (higher temp for more efficiency, lower temp more power). Bottom line it changes engine temp marginally.

I have a 2012 X5 35d (EU spec 3.0sd). I have a regen usually once a tank (500 miles or so). Soot reaches between 20 and 30 and usually within a few minutes the soot reads zero. Exhaust temp remains at a tad over 1100f for 20 minutes then returns to 500ish. It is VITAL you allow every regen to complete it's cycle. Otherwise it will continue to try and you'll essentially always be under a regen. THIS is where issues with "green diesel" technology arises. Soccer moms running errands, quick trips, and never really driving it hard wreak havoc on a DPF, especially without proper regenerations. My X has 62000 miles and had had zero issues besides a tire pressure monitoring issue about a year ago.

My biggest tips:

Keep you oil changed on time with recommended oil. German engineers with doctorate degree's know better than I do.

During regens, constant throttle is imperative. This is obviously only easily done on the interstate. I don't mean stomp the throttle, just barely open, maintaining 75mph suffices. This keeps exhaust temps regularly over 1100f during regen. Driving it hard actually has a cooling effect on the exhaust temp because it's moving faster through the filter.

There are times you can't help it but try and avoid stopping the engine during a regen.

Buy a scangauge! I'm.not a salesman believe me buy it's an awesome product if you'd like to know what's going on under the hood. Plus it reads and clears codes.
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Old 07-06-2016, 06:22 PM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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1. Will regens start if the thermostat is faulty?
...
Buy a scangauge! I'm.not a salesman believe me buy it's an awesome product if you'd like to know what's going on under the hood. Plus it reads and clears codes.
I've got no issue with regens starting. they seem to be starting fine, its just the frequency of them I'm concerned about. The scanguage looks great - thanks for the recommendation, but I'm not convinced Carly is giving me wrong info at this point. In saying that, I certainly dont trust it 100% - I'll prob take it to a mechanic prior to buying another stat monitoring system though
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Old 07-06-2016, 06:36 PM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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Does anyone know if exhaust pressure sensors need to be adapted (by a technician) when they are replaced?

that is my latest suspicion and at around $150 to replace I'm tempted. given many people say they often need replacing above 100,000km
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:37 PM
f30jojo f30jojo is offline
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I've got no issue with regens starting. they seem to be starting fine, its just the frequency of them I'm concerned about. The scanguage looks great - thanks for the recommendation, but I'm not convinced Carly is giving me wrong info at this point. In saying that, I certainly dont trust it 100% - I'll prob take it to a mechanic prior to buying another stat monitoring system though
I understand trust me. There are times that I've seen regens happen back to back, thsts usually due to driving conditions and distance driven. I had 3 regens on a 1000 road trip, but that was after weeks of stop and go driving to and from work. Since returning from that trip (a couple weeks ago) I had my first regen just today.

I really wish there was a way to bypass all this dang green diesel technology and drive it 150k+ miles practicality worry free.
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Old 07-06-2016, 09:17 PM
AU Pete AU Pete is offline
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There are times that I've seen regens happen back to back, thsts usually due to driving conditions and distance driven. I had 3 regens on a 1000 road trip, but that was after weeks of stop and go driving to and from work. Since returning from that trip (a couple weeks ago) I had my first regen just today.
thankyou - that is reassuring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by f30jojo View Post
I really wish there was a way to bypass all this dang green diesel technology and drive it 150k+ miles practicality worry free.
same! caused a lot of stress. though i do feel like i've learnt a lot.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:36 PM
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There is one exhaust pressure sensor on the 35d as far as I know, and if you replace it, it has to be recalibrated.
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Old 07-06-2016, 08:54 PM
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There is one exhaust pressure sensor on the 35d as far as I know, and if you replace it, it has to be recalibrated.
ok - thanks - i just found your thread over here https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=885187 that talks about replacing it. Did you calibrate it yourself using... Rheingold (? just learning about that) ... or is that a job for an indy mechanic?
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Old 07-07-2016, 07:38 PM
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ok - thanks - i just found your thread over here https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=885187 that talks about replacing it. Did you calibrate it yourself using... Rheingold (? just learning about that) ... or is that a job for an indy mechanic?
I calibrated it myself using Rheingold ISTA/D
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