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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 08-16-2019, 11:16 AM
chitown312 chitown312 is offline
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Auto H functionality

Does anyone use their "auto h" functionality to automatically hold your car while at red light without holding the brake? Was the feature designed to be used this way and are there any caveats?
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  #2  
Old 08-16-2019, 11:34 AM
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I've used it every now and then in traffic. It doesn't feel natural to me so I normally stop after a few minutes.
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  #3  
Old 08-16-2019, 12:39 PM
mrohitredd mrohitredd is offline
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I'm addicted to this feature and miss the same on other csrs I drive. Very useful in stop and go traffic in particular. And to answer your question - yes it is meant to use that way.


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  #4  
Old 08-16-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown312 View Post
Does anyone use their "auto h" functionality to automatically hold your car while at red light without holding the brake? Was the feature designed to be used this way and are there any caveats?
I believe that there are two different systems at play here.

DSC provides rollback prevention for 1.5 seconds while stopped on an incline uphill or downhill with no driver intervention. Take ones foot off the brake and DSC will hold the car briefly.

Auto 'H'old uses the EMF brake, normally used as parking/emergency brake, to provide the same function for long periods of time. If the engine is shut off then the function becomes parking brake.

The caveat for me is the nylon delrin polyoxymethylene gear that pulls on the Bowden cables.
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Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-16-2019 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:18 PM
Michael47 Michael47 is offline
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I use if frequently in traffic. It was designed specifically to hold a traffic lights so you can take your foot off the brake pedal. I have found that it seems to shorten substantially the turbo hesitation when you do step on the go pedal. I know of no caveats.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:32 PM
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I find it useful at a drive-thru (only). It "converts" to a Parking Brake when you open the driver's door.
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Old 08-16-2019, 01:53 PM
Falkon Falkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrohitredd View Post
I'm addicted to this feature and miss the same on other csrs I drive. Very useful in stop and go traffic in particular. And to answer your question - yes it is meant to use that way.
+1
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:00 PM
Falkon Falkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
....Auto 'H'old uses the EMF brake, normally used as parking/emergency brake, to provide the same function for long periods of time.
This may not be completely the case; I read in the manual that it actually uses the ABS Brakes system to apply the brakes on the 4 wheels while the engine is running and reverts to the Emergency Brake function when the engine is off pulling the Bowden cables that applies the brakes shoes to the rear wheels only.



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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
If the engine is shut off then the function becomes parking brake.
Yes. +1
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkon View Post
This may not be completely the case; I read in the manual that it actually uses the ABS Brakes system to apply the brakes on the 4 wheels while the engine is running and reverts to the Emergency Brake function when the engine is off pulling the Bowden cables that applies the brakes shoes to the rear wheels only. Yes. +1
You are right. Thank you for making me refresh my memory.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pp 17, 18 E70 Longitudinal Dynamics Systems
Transition from EMF Actuating Unit to DSC
The system switches over from mechanical to hydraulic mode when the engine is start- ed. If the EMF actuating unit was applied at the time, the DSC hydraulics will assume control of the braking force. The EMF actuating unit is not released until the hydraulics are holding the vehicle secure. The indicator lamp remains lit red throughout this process, and the driver is unaware of the transition (the lamp does not even flash).

Transition from DSC to EMF Actuating Unit
The transition to the EMF actuating unit always takes place on exiting the hydraulic func- tion at "ignition OFF". If the parking brake was applied, the hydraulics are not released until the EMF actuating unit is applied. The indicator lamp remains red throughout this transition.

Function of the Parking Brake Controlled by the DSC Hydraulics
Scenario: "Engine running"
The parking brake is applied or released completely by hydraulic means when the EMF operating button is pulled or pressed.
Dynamic braking ( hydraulic) is triggered with the vehicle rolling and the button operated at v >3 km/h. The basic functions mainly correspond to the functional scope of a conven- tional mechanical parking brake.
The system switches between "brake applied" and "brake released" with pressure build- up and pressure reduction every time the EMF button is pulled or pressed.
The parking brake must be released by pressing the EMF button before starting off. Pulling away against the applied brake pressure results in an increase in pressure and a warning to the driver.
Scenario: "At rest"
Remove control removed The parking brake enters rest status when the remote control is removed. If the parking brake is applied, the time-delayed red indicator lamp signals this status to the driver.
If the EMF actuating unit is released in rest mode, the EMF actuating unit is applied when the EMF button is pulled with the vehicle stationary. If the vehicle is in motion, pressing the button will initiate dynamic braking.

Note: Always take the remote control with you when leaving the vehicle otherwise children could release the parking brake.
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  #10  
Old 08-16-2019, 02:40 PM
chitown312 chitown312 is offline
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Thanks for the clarification of how it works. I always wondered and knew the answer would be somewhere in this forum or a tech article.

My annoyance with the feature is how it leaves the parking brake enabled requiring you to manually disable the parking brake after a cold start before moving, assuming the auto h was left enabled when the car was powered off. On a newer rental i've noticed in the described scenario the parking brake automatically releases and the auto h feature automatically is re-enabled after a cold start.

I find myself using the feature occasionally when I go through frequent red light city intersections. I'm terrified leaving it on sometimes like when driving on the highway.
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:49 PM
Falkon Falkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
You are right. Thank you for making me refresh my memory.
You are welcome, I learn a lot from you guys here and I'm very grateful.
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  #12  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:02 PM
Falkon Falkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown312 View Post
Thanks for the clarification of how it works. I always wondered and knew the answer would be somewhere in this forum or a tech article.

My annoyance with the feature is how it leaves the parking brake enabled requiring you to manually disable the parking brake after a cold start before moving, assuming the auto h was left enabled when the car was powered off.
Just one more button to press before launch/ takeoff. Kind of makes one feel like a Pilot,


Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown312 View Post
.... I'm terrified leaving it on sometimes like when driving on the highway.
Please don't be, I've never heard of it locking up.

If it is any consolation to you,I have on several occasions, intentionally, pulled the Parking Brake button while speeding trying to find out what to expect in case of a rouge continuous acceleration like the GM or Toyota cases in the past. Not much really happened, it just momentarily applied the brakes, for a milisecond of so, with a flashing warning on the dash that disappears immediately.

Last edited by Falkon; 08-16-2019 at 03:03 PM.
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2019, 03:31 PM
ArgentoCarNut ArgentoCarNut is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
I believe that there are two different systems at play here.

DSC provides rollback prevention for 1.5 seconds while stopped on an incline uphill or downhill with no driver intervention. Take ones foot off the brake and DSC will hold the car briefly.

Doug, are you sure of the above?

I understand the feature is called hill assist and was standard in all 6 cylinder BMWs and above, during the time the E70 was in production.

The DSC is the stability control, not sure how it intervenes in the described fashion.



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Old 08-17-2019, 10:00 AM
RPsX5d RPsX5d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown312 View Post
. . . Thanks for the clarification of how it works. I always wondered and knew the answer would be somewhere in this forum or a tech article . . .

I find myself using the feature occasionally when I go through frequent red light city intersections. I'm terrified leaving it on sometimes like when driving on the highway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falkon View Post
. . . Please don't be, I've never heard of it locking up.

If it is any consolation to you,I have on several occasions, intentionally, pulled the Parking Brake button while speeding trying to find out what to expect in case of a rouge continuous acceleration like the GM or Toyota cases in the past. Not much really happened, it just momentarily applied the brakes, for a milisecond of so, with a flashing warning on the dash that disappears immediately.
LOVE Auto-H . . . I have been using it for the past 9+ years (over 150,000 miles) . . . typically I switch it on as soon I start to drive . . . and it is left switched on until ignition-off (yes, both hwy and city). About the only time I switch it off is when I need to do the "nudge movement" while parking.

Here's a PDF that describes the various brake functions . . . attaching a few select pages relevant to this thread . . .

I wonder if the DSC brake pressure is dependent on how hard the foot-pedal was pushed when the DSC brake got engaged?

Reason for asking - when parked in an incline, EMF engaged . . . after starting the engine, every once in a while the car rolls back (less than half an inch) . . . I am sure this is the result of EMF transitioning over to DSC braking . . . this roll back doesn't happen all the time . . . wonder if pusing the foot brake harder has any effect - i.e. avoid the roll back?

PS: Recently drove a 2019 Lexus RX350 . . . Auto-H/EMF works slightly different . . . on our E70 when the car is near 0 mph the Auto-H kicks in (indicator lights up green) . . . on the Lexus, the vehicle has to come to a complete stop and then there is a one second delay before Auto-H is engaged. I prefer ours . . .

Also, if the EMF is engaged upon parking, when you start it next, it shows the EMF brake is engaged, same as ours (Red) . . . but unlike ours, when you shift into drive (with the foot pedal still engaged), the EMF brake gets released automatically . . . yes, one less button to push . . .
Attached Files
File Type: pdf EMF DSC Brake - Select Pages.pdf (53.4 KB, 19 views)
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  #15  
Old 08-17-2019, 10:23 AM
robnitro robnitro is offline
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Rpsx5d thanks for the documents.
However, it doesn't instill confidence to me.
Using hydraulic brakes when parking brake is used while driving sounds useless. It would be useless if the hydraulic system failed. That's why they called it the emergency brake, being mechanical it would be a backup if one loses brakes.
Another annoyance is that we can't even disengage P from the cupholder anymore, as they penny pinched and now it has to be done from the driver side of the transmission.
I don't get how modern cars get away with this. If you break down and need to move your car to safety you can't without going under the car?? Stupid stupid and stupid.
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Old 08-17-2019, 12:43 PM
RPsX5d RPsX5d is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnitro View Post
. . . However, it doesn't instill confidence to me.
Using hydraulic brakes when parking brake is used while driving sounds useless. It would be useless if the hydraulic system failed. That's why they called it the emergency brake, being mechanical it would be a backup if one loses brakes . . .
I assumed if the hydraulic brakes have completely failed the system will do the best with the EMF brake . . . I admit it doesn't state that explicitly.

This is what I thought the system did . . . assuming hydraulic brakes are working . . .

* at all times if the engine IS running, the hydraulic brakes (either normal hydraulic or hydraulic via DSC system) are used . . . regardless of what the trigger is (foot brake, parking brake switch, or automatic engagement via Auto-H)

* if the engine is NOT running, it is always the EMF brake

If the engine is switched off and the vehicle is rolling below 2 mph (presumably being pushed or rolling downhill), pulling up the parking brake switch will engage the EMF brake - i.e. it works like a normal parking brake.

Unclear to me what happens if the vehicle loses all hydraulic power while traveling at normal speeds . . . my "guess" - pulling up the parking brake will engage the EMF brake feature . . . and the system will do the best it can to stop the vehicle.

That then begs the question - what if it is a dual failure - hydraulic and electric . . . a very unlikely scenario . . . yes, in this case, an old fashioned hand brake would have worked.

I am not sure if my understanding is correct . . . please do chime in to correct me . . .
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  #17  
Old 08-17-2019, 02:05 PM
robnitro robnitro is offline
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Good points. I don't have confidence in bmw programming this correctly.
IBS doesn't detect ca door handles melting in many examples and so on.
It's fine that they went high tech, but the testing of it was skipped it seems.
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Old 08-17-2019, 04:45 PM
RPsX5d RPsX5d is offline
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Full disclosure . . . until today I didn't realize the Auto-H feature used the DSC system to hold the car when the engine is running . . . this thread motivated me to dig a bit more . . . found something interesting . . . .

Both our E70 series and the following F15 series uses a separate parking brake shoe for the parking brakes . . . the latest G05 series does not . . . instead, it uses an EMF Actuator (#11 in the diagram).

Unclear to me what happens if there is a complete loss of hydraulic power . . . I suppose resort to engine braking and hope it doesn't tear up the transmission . . .
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Old 08-21-2019, 06:38 AM
phastphil phastphil is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPsX5d View Post


LOVE Auto-H . . . I have been using it for the past 9+ years (over 150,000 miles) . . . typically I switch it on as soon I start to drive . . . and it is left switched on until ignition-off (yes, both hwy and city). About the only time I switch it off is when I need to do the "nudge movement" while parking.

Here's a PDF that describes the various brake functions . . . attaching a few select pages relevant to this thread . . .

I wonder if the DSC brake pressure is dependent on how hard the foot-pedal was pushed when the DSC brake got engaged?

Reason for asking - when parked in an incline, EMF engaged . . . after starting the engine, every once in a while the car rolls back (less than half an inch) . . . I am sure this is the result of EMF transitioning over to DSC braking . . . this roll back doesn't happen all the time . . . wonder if pusing the foot brake harder has any effect - i.e. avoid the roll back?

PS: Recently drove a 2019 Lexus RX350 . . . Auto-H/EMF works slightly different . . . on our E70 when the car is near 0 mph the Auto-H kicks in (indicator lights up green) . . . on the Lexus, the vehicle has to come to a complete stop and then there is a one second delay before Auto-H is engaged. I prefer ours . . .

Also, if the EMF is engaged upon parking, when you start it next, it shows the EMF brake is engaged, same as ours (Red) . . . but unlike ours, when you shift into drive (with the foot pedal still engaged), the EMF brake gets released automatically . . . yes, one less button to push . . .
I'm an Auto-H addict. As mentioned above, I use it 90% of the time. I've become totally used to it's actions and find it makes me more tolerant of waiting at a light. I'm always amused that drivers CREEP while waiting for a light...do they think it will change sooner if they inch their way forward? As soon as the AUTO-H green light comes on, I remove my foot from the brake and take a big deep breath. When the traffic light turns green, I position my foot by the accelerator and wait for the car in front of me to start moving.....then accelerate. It's also a poor man's LAUNCH CONTROL if I'm first and I want to get the jump on the kid in the Mustang 4 cylinder. I'm no match for any Tesla however.

I switch the AUTO-H off when parking, backing into a spot or parallel parking. I also disengage when I pull into my garage, or about to leave the vehicle.

Try it - if you never have. It does take some getting used to.
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Old 08-21-2019, 06:44 AM
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You kids! I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and am perfectly fine coordinating foot-brake, hand-brake, shift lever and throttle.
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Old 08-21-2019, 07:58 AM
RPsX5d RPsX5d is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
You kids! I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and am perfectly fine coordinating foot-brake, hand-brake, shift lever and throttle.
Never said we couldn't write a letter using a feather and an inkpot . . . we prefer email . . .

PS: Had rented a car overseas, it didn't have this Auto-H feature, but the parking brake lever was right next to the gear selector . . . this worked reasonably well . . . engaged the parking brake with my hand and pushed the transmission into neutral . . . doing the same with a parking that uses a foot lever is quite tedious . . . not worth it IMO . . .
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:01 AM
Falkon Falkon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phastphil View Post
I'm an Auto-H addict. As mentioned above, I use it 90% of the time. I've become totally used to it's actions and find it makes me more tolerant of waiting at a light. I'm always amused that drivers CREEP while waiting for a light...do they think it will change sooner if they inch their way forward? As soon as the AUTO-H green light comes on, I remove my foot from the brake and take a big deep breath. When the traffic light turns green, I position my foot by the accelerator and wait for the car in front of me to start moving.....then accelerate. It's also a poor man's LAUNCH CONTROL if I'm first and I want to get the jump on the kid in the Mustang 4 cylinder. I'm no match for any Tesla however.

I switch the AUTO-H off when parking, backing into a spot or parallel parking. I also disengage when I pull into my garage, or about to leave the vehicle.

Try it - if you never have. It does take some getting used to.
+1. More like my kind of application as well. But when you leave or turn the vehicle off, it actually switches over to the Emergency Brake function so I don't bother switching it off when I turn the vehicle off.

I have also observed the following with the AUTO-H turned ON that if you lift off your seat (if you slightly get off your seat):
1. while stationary, it automatically converts to the Emergency Brake function
2. while driving, it turns OFF the system.
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:05 AM
Falkon Falkon is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
You kids! I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and am perfectly fine coordinating foot-brake, hand-brake, shift lever and throttle.
I wonder why or how you do this driving an Automatic And I never heard that any of our X5 Bimmers have Manual Transmission (Stick Shift)
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:14 AM
Falkon Falkon is offline
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Originally Posted by RPsX5d View Post
. . . . Unclear to me what happens if there is a complete loss of hydraulic power . . . I suppose resort to engine braking and hope it doesn't tear up the transmission . . .
Well I suppose by Engine Braking you mean coasting to a crawl till the Bimmer hits something and stops because a healthy Bimmer will not let you turn the Engine OFF while in gear and in motion; so your transmission is in safe hands. You get a warning if you push the Start/Stop Button while you're in motion.

Last edited by Falkon; 08-21-2019 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 08-21-2019, 08:18 AM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
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Wow! Really. Pray we never have a diesel run-away. I doubt an automatic transmission can stall the motor as the TDI MT can. You must not take a run-away diesel to neutral unload it.

A nuclear plant back-up steam power plant had two turbine generators with cross connected low pressure steam sections for load sharing balancing. Someone was taking down the steam plant and forgot to shut the cross connect and popped open the breaker at minimum power indication. The turbine ran away on LP steam from the other side. The direct coupled generator came apart and the 3 ton rotor destroyed the generator room. The power plant was replaced with DGs. The apprentice taking logs at the time, an acquaintance, said he hunkered down next to the biggest foundation that he could see and waited for the noise to stop. Said the rotor got stuck spinning in a corner and rattled for 30 seconds.
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Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.

Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-21-2019 at 08:26 AM.
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