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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #1  
Old 08-21-2019, 02:08 PM
Br0hammer Br0hammer is offline
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E90 No throttle response and surging until code reset, happens again on restart

Hello everybody.

I have a 2007 335i project (new to me) that I'm having some real problems with. I've tried to do as much reading as I could find and poke around on these issues, but I'm still at a loss.

The car starts with the limp mode light on and has 0 throttle response, and hunts (aggressively) for idle. 1100-1400 RPM or so. If you clear all codes before the car starts, it still has some surging idle, but there is throttle response. If you give it gas, you can actually lower the surging RPMS by slowly easing off the gas. If you let off completely, it will surge again but at a lower rpm. If you give it gas for maybe 20-30 seconds, you can easy off and it idles fine.

The other option is to start the car with the hunting, and clear the codes while the car runs. the RPMS drop to an appropriate idle and no longer surge, and throttle response is again restored.

In either situation, once the car is turned off, everything starts from the beginning.

I'm getting 4 DME/DDE codes.

2CF7 - I believe this is Throttle valve potentiometer 2
2E7C - BSD communication fault
2CFB - Throttle Value Adaptation?
2D09 - Butterfly Valve


I believe code 2E7C is related to the Oil Sensor. I It appears to have been whacked by something. I plan to replace it. I have already replaced the voltage regulator, thermostat, and waterpump. The only things left are the DME, IBS, and the wires themselves, I think? I tried to test by disconnecting alternator BSD cable and reading it with a voltmeter, but I couldn't get a reading at all (???). Perhaps I did it wrong. Do I run the ground to the engine block?


2E7C is the only one of these codes that does not at least temporarily clear.


The other 3 codes, 2CF7, 2CFB, and 2D09 are all throttle related and clear either before or during running, but return on restarting. I pulled a known functional throttle body (thanks to friends with the same car!) and put it in place and had the exact same issues, so I don't believe the throttle body itself is actually bad... plus, when codes are cleared, I have full and appropriate throttle response and no limp mode.

What could be the cause of this?

Other things about the car that may be relevant:
-It had a tune that was pulled before I got it.
-The car sat for about 1 year, with the white cover off the DME compartment (its a little dusty)
-Air box removed for dual air filters
-The big one is that the car got wet. Water was only up to ~ floorboards. I can't think of anything related to throttle that could have gotten damp with such low water. Nothing on the car seems to have any actual water damage, rust, or corrosion.


If the next thing to do is a new DME... how do I do that affordably? I have the ITS software at my disposal; can I pick one up from another 07 6sp and just swap? Reprogram? Do I need the EWSII and new keys as well?


Thank you all for your help!
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  #2  
Old 08-21-2019, 04:13 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is offline
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Location: Fairfax County, Virginia
 
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Mein Auto: 2007 328xi E91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Br0hammer View Post
...I have a 2007 335i project (new to me)...The car starts with the limp mode light on and has 0 throttle response, and hunts (aggressively) for idle. 1100-1400 RPM or so. If you clear all codes before the car starts, it still has some surging idle, but there is throttle response...I'm getting 4 DME/DDE codes.
2CF7, 2E7C, 2CFB, 2D09
...The big one is that the car got wet. Water was only up to ~ floorboards. I can't think of anything related to throttle that could have gotten damp with such low water...
Welcome to the Forum!

The problem is that you do NOT have a Throttle Cable connecting the Accelerator Pedal to the "Butterfly", but rather you "Throttle by Wire"

There is an "Accelerator Pedal Module" (B10) which has two Hall Sensors in it, and they EACH must present plausible Accelerator Pedal Position signals to the DME (Engine ECU) so that it may actuate the Electric Throttle Valve Actuator. You clearly do NOT have plausible signals from BOTH Hall Sensors in the Accelerator Pedal Module, as received by the DME. The DME and other expensive Modules are likely fine, but the Accelerator Pedal Module was probably damaged by "high water." I would ignore the OZS (Oil Condition Sensor) issue at the moment, just be aware that the Coolant Pump and Alternator are ALSO controlled by the BSD Bus, and if there is a Bus fault at the OZS, which there appears to be, you may NOT have proper operation of Alternator or Pump. Here is the RealOEM.com Parts Catalog page related to the Accelerator Pedal Module, and also a sample parts source:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/par...5i&mg=35&sg=20
https://www.autohausaz.com/catalog/k...pedal%20module

Here are the TIS circuit diagrams for the Accelerator Module (B10) and Throttle Valve Actuator (Y63900):
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...-pedal/byooXmK
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...supply/xGTqLXk

And here are the Fault Code Definitions for the four Fault Codes you list. Note that, CONTRARY to "Web Legend" P-codes are ACTUALLY more descriptive of the fault than the "Hexcode" BMW Fault Code WITHOUT a DEFINITION of that code, or other fault details. INPA or ISTA give you BOTH a Definition of the Fault Code, and also the P-code equivalent fault code if there is one. Coolant Pump codes are one example where a P-code reader will NOT read BMW FC's 2E81 through 2E85.

N54 | P0221 | 2CF7 | DME: Throttle-valve potentiometer 2, plausibility to air mass | MSD80
P0221 | 2CF7 | Throttle/Pedal Position Sensor/Switch 'B' Circuit Range/Performance

N54 | P1632 | 2CFB | DME: Throttle-valve adaptation value | MSD80
P1632 | 2CFB | Throttle Valve Adaptation Conditions Not Met
P1633 | 2CFB | Throttle Valve Adaptation Limp-Home Position Unknown
P1644 | 2CFB | Throttle Valve Adaptation Relearning Lower Mechanical Stop
P1694 | 2CFB | Throttle Valve Actuator Start Test Spring Test and Limp-Home Position Failed

N54 | P110D/P1417 | 2D09 | DME: THROTTLE | MSD80
P110D | 2D61 Throttle Position Sensor 'A' and 'B' Range / Performance
P1417 | 2D09 | Throttle Control Incorrect Air Supply

2E7C | BSD bus Communication fault | msd80
P16C6 | 2E7C | CAN Time-out Bit Serial Data Interface

The first code Definition for each code is from BMW Fault Code Lookup, and the other codes are from Bentley. I would suggest reviewing the "E9x References" listed in the attached pdf so you can find everything from general information on how a system operates to Technical Data and circuit diagrams in TIS, to sources for K+DCAN cable and free Downloads of BMW Standard Tools (INPA & NCS) and Rheingold (ISTA).

In YOUR case, the Function and Testing of the Accelerator Pedal Module are explained in Bentley at page 130-45, pdf p.298. If you are NOT able to download the 1265-page pdf from the site linked in the attachment, let me know & I will attach page copies.

George
Attached Files
File Type: pdf E9x References.pdf (218.0 KB, 13 views)

Last edited by gbalthrop; 08-21-2019 at 08:03 PM.
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  #3  
Old 08-21-2019, 10:37 PM
Br0hammer Br0hammer is offline
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Location: Durham, NC
 
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Mein Auto: 330i zHP
Thank you for the welcome!
I've been a lurker for a while (Had my zHP since ~07), but this is the first time I couldn't find my problem already sorted out.

I downloaded Bentley; thank you for the links. For the Accelerator Pedal, it states "The output of the Hall sensors is checked for plausibility. The voltage range of Hall sensor 1 is approximately 0.5 to 4.5 volts. Hall sensor 2 ranges from approximately 0.5 to 2.5 volts. " That seems fairly straight forward and easy enough to test. I assume that the Hall sensors should be putting out the voltage range with the ignition on but the car not running? Maybe it's just because it's midnight, but I'm having a little trouble picturing how to actually test the output without cutting a wire. Do I need to pull it out and just bench test it on a 5vdc power supply?

Could the Hall sensors actually be the culprit though if I'm able to use them once the code has been cleared? That is the part I'm still most confused by. Everything seems to work...once I clear the code. Is it possible for it to function off a single Hall at that point?

I had no idea the BMW hex code was so non-specific. I'm downloading ISTA now so that I can better read the problems!
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  #4  
Old 08-22-2019, 09:51 AM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is offline
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Mein Auto: 2007 328xi E91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Br0hammer View Post
...I assume that the Hall sensors should be putting out the voltage range with the ignition on but the car not running? [I've used INPA to view the voltage output from the two sensors on my N52KP (same Pedal assy), and yes, ignition ON, Engine OFF] Do I need to pull it out and just bench test it on a 5vdc power supply? [You COULD do it that way, but INPA or ISTA make testing of many things so simple: you don't have to remove, disconnect, backprobe, stick pins in wires, etc.; most ANY INPUT to the DME can be monitored on your computer screen]

Could the Hall sensors actually be the culprit though if I'm able to use them once the code has been cleared? That is the part I'm still most confused by. Everything seems to work...once I clear the code. Is it possible for it to function off a single Hall at that point? [BMW did NOT consult with me before they created INPA/ISTA so I have NO IDEA ; my SWAG would be that there is some fault, either in the Accelerator Pedal Module, Throttle Valve, or wiring between the DME and one of those components which is NOT passing the "self-test" on wake-up/ startup. Do you have "NORMAL" throttle response once started & codes cleared, or is it STILL in some type of "Limp Mode"?]

I had no idea the BMW hex code was so non-specific. [The 4-digit code number itself is "non-specific" in many instances, but there are "additional digits" or identifiers which are NOT read or interpreted by "Non-BMW" Scan Tools. As stated before, INPA gives you BOTH a detailed definition AND the corresponding P-code. It also tells you the "Fault Type" (digits 5 & 6 of a longer code string) and a LOT of other information. I think the problem is that the computer guys who developed some of the Scan Tools (like Carly) know computers & how to "hack" into a system, but do NOT know enough about auto diagnostics to know why more than the first four digits of a code is needed.] I'm downloading ISTA now so that I can better read the problems!
I did NOT mean to suggest that I would just throw a new Accelerator Pedal Module at it. INPA (and I suppose ISTA as well) lets you view live data of (1) Accelerator Pedal Module Hall Sensor inputs to DME (actual voltage), AND (2) Throttle Valve Potentiometer Inputs, BOTH as received by the DME. So you do NOT have to guess. There is always a possibility that any fault lies in the Connectors or wiring between the component and DME, so ALWAYS test before throwing parts. INPA/ISTA make testing easy -- all you have to do after connecting computer to OBD II Socket is select the CORRECT screen to view the data, and in the case of INPA, do a little German to English Translation. Google Translate is actually good for translating Technical German to English -- IF you already know the correct English Tech Terms -- just make sure you click on the English translation & select the BEST synonym:
https://translate.google.com/#view=h...te&sl=de&tl=en

You sound like you have some engineering/ technical background, and if so, I would suggest trying INPA first, BEFORE installing ISTA. You have to install BMW Standard Tools (INPA, NCS, etc.) BEFORE installing ISTA anyway. I haven't used ISTA yet, but if you prefer to understand how a system works, instead of just following a trail of breadcrumbs -- er, "Diagnostic Flow Chart", then INPA gives you the data you need. If you elect to try INPA, let me know & I'll provide ScreenPrints of the pertinent screens with English translations.

The basic terms needed for this diagnosis are: Voltage = Spannung; Throttle or Throttle Valve = Drosselklappe; Accelerator Pedal Value = Fahrpedalwert; Setpoint or Desired Value = Sollwert; Accelerator Pedal Sensor = Pedalwertgeber. I find it helpful to understanding how a system works to take the time to translate the technical German and improve my concepts. For those who just want to "get 'er done" -- NOT so much.

George
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  #5  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:28 AM
Br0hammer Br0hammer is offline
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Mein Auto: 330i zHP
I've finally had more of a chance to work on this car.

I speak a little German, so the translation part isn't too hard; it gets difficult when its all just abbreviations for things I haven't heard of!

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track this time or back in circles in the wrong direction. I went to look at live voltages from the accelerator pedal and everything actually seems to fit where it should. Voltages aren't 100% as it says they're supposed to be, but within 0.2v, which seems mostly insignificant? I tried it with a functioning pedal anyway, and the results were the same as before. What does seem off, and is constantly off, is the voltage on throttle body potentiometer 2. I can't find where I had them written down exactly, but potentiometer 1 shows a relatively consistent voltage that increases in response to the accelerator pedal, even without codes cleared (in the situation where the accelerator pedal has no control over throttle response). That, in addition to the consistent voltage output range for the pedal, has drawn me away from that as the possible cause of the issue. Potentiometer 2 also responds to the accelerator pedal, although it is harder to tell how, exactly, as the voltage output from TBP2 is constantly in flux. Without the accelerator, TBP1 hovers around (0.6v or something, again, can't find where I took the notes), but TBP2 constantly moves between something around 2.4-3.4 volts. As the accelerator is applied, that voltage range max and min increases, say to 3-4.5v, but still increases and decreases along that range constantly.

I thought it was the throttle body, even though I tested with my friend's before...maybe I didn't clear the adaptations before? So I purchased a used one from a yard around here, cleared all memory that I could find related to the throttle, and I have the exact same issues. My grounding straps seem okay. The connectors look fine. I'm stumped again. Could it be a fried DME somehow? I don't think a fault in the wire somewhere would cause such voltage fluctuation.

Any suggestions on what to look at next? If the DME has gone bad, I've really not a clue how to deal with that.
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:30 PM
Br0hammer Br0hammer is offline
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Update in my trouble shooting... This isn't going in the direction that I'd like.

DME is reading the throttle body potentiometer 2 as varying in voltage. I was way off on my numbers before- it reads between 1v-1.5v, roughly, with no more than a second change between the two, ramping up and down without consistency for max or min voltage. I read on another forum, but could not find in an actual manual, that the voltages should be opposing and total ~5v. I don't know if thats accurate, but if it is, my numbers are terribly off. I thought I'd start with finding the cause of the fluctuations first, since I wasn't as sure of that.

I unplugged the connector at the TB and was unable to find any sort of wiring diagram for it. In the Bentley manual, I was able to find a pin diagram for the DME and locate which of the 6 pins run to the throttle body. I was able to confirm that the power wire was putting 5v to the throttle body, and that the ground seemed functional as well.

I decided to test the pins at the DME directly with harness connected, using the grounding pin (multimeter probes making contact with back of pin connectors in the harness). 2 of the wires seemed to do nothing (??), and the other 2 wires were the ones the DME was reading. TBP1 showed .85v, as the car was showing on INPA, but the pin for TBP2 was showing a CONSTANT 1.55v, about the max range for what was being reported from the DME. The Pin for TBP2 does not fluctuate in voltage... meaning the constant fluctuations are not happening externally of the DME. When I pulled the connectors, there was very minor corrosion, but some none the less. I cleaned the pins and tried again; still reading fluctuating voltage. I assume this points to a water damaged DME. I have found some places that will supply and reprogram a MSD81 to replace the MSD80, for around $500. Is there another way to check and make sure that the DME is in fact faulty? $500 is a considerable amount to throw at the problem without being sure.
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2007 335i, 335i, bsd, codes, dme, e90, surging, throttle response


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