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F22 / F23 2 Series (2014 - Current)
The 2 Series coupe is the replacement for the E82/E88 1 series coupe. Production starts in November 2013 on the 228i (N20) and M235i (N55) coupes. Look for them in dealerships in February 2014. The convertible F23 2 series will follow in the fall of 2014.

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  #26  
Old 04-17-2019, 03:43 PM
angelzero angelzero is offline
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My ignorant sunny-California living self says, all cars have four wheel stop, but xDrive gives you two extra wheels to get in trouble with. It might give you overconfidence and allow you to bring excess speed and otherwise surpass handling limits. And if it also makes you not get snow tires, that's probably a bigger win. I just want a numerical % traction gain comparison from AWD vs. RWD snow tires.

Reminds me of another quote "Intelligence is like four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places."
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  #27  
Old 04-18-2019, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angelzero View Post
Reminds me of another quote "Intelligence is like four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places."
I had an employee who did a lot of beach driving with her husband. His comment was that you drove in using 2WD, so that you had 4WD to get yourself out after you eventually got stuck.
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  #28  
Old 04-20-2019, 02:55 PM
Mark K Mark K is offline
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Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
I had an employee who did a lot of beach driving with her husband. His comment was that you drove in using 2WD, so that you had 4WD to get yourself out after you eventually got stuck.
Let's not forget that AWD gets you to speed much faster than 2WD in conditions when stopping or cornering are pretty iffy if not outright impossible at those speeds
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  #29  
Old 04-21-2019, 06:04 AM
lmacmil lmacmil is offline
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Let's not forget that AWD gets you to speed much faster than 2WD in conditions when stopping or cornering are pretty iffy if not outright impossible at those speeds
And if "conditions...are pretty iffy" why would I want to get to speed much faster?
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  #30  
Old 04-21-2019, 06:13 AM
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Depends on what is the iffy-condition. I use acceleration to put iffy-traffic conditions behind me. If I don't like someone's driving then I'm gone.
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  #31  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
LSD's, LD's, and modern computer-controlled traction control do what most people outside of the snow belt need, without adding $2k to the MSRP, 200 pounds to the curb weight, and potentially thousands of dollars in repair costs.

The outer boots on the front axle on FWD and AWD vehicles are usually the first ones to tear. That's because they not only rotate with the driveshaft, but bend with the turning of the wheels.
and anti-lock brakes do what most people inside the snow belt use to do by pumping the brakes. That's fine, you aren't up for tech which makes things safer. We get it.

hogwash...show me a scientific test which shows premature boot wear between FWD and AWD.
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  #32  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Matthew_H View Post
Apart from the points ppl already mentioned, itís less fun to drive than an RWD one! As long as you know how to drive and have good winter tires, AWD is not a necessity for snow driving. It HELPS but not important. Iíve driven a Ford Crown Vic and a Mercedes C class in the snow with no issues.
Here in Canada 95% of BMWs are xDrive. My 2011 335i is xDrive as well and when I took it down to Arizona last year and got it serviced there, the service writer is surprised that itís xDrive as they donít exist in Arizona. Itís available as an option that no one buys.


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driving should be more safe, not fun to drive, when you are talking about driving in real life traffic not on the track or closed loops. Define fun to drive on RWD? Do you mean being able to brake contact patch? that's unsafe, regardless of how well you drive, when you have people around you and when conditions aren't controlled. Again, xdrive has its intended purpose, which is not just for snow.
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  #33  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by angelzero View Post
My ignorant sunny-California living self says, all cars have four wheel stop, but xDrive gives you two extra wheels to get in trouble with. It might give you overconfidence and allow you to bring excess speed and otherwise surpass handling limits. And if it also makes you not get snow tires, that's probably a bigger win. I just want a numerical % traction gain comparison from AWD vs. RWD snow tires.

Reminds me of another quote "Intelligence is like four-wheel drive. It only allows you to get stuck in more remote places."
huh? since when did having all four wheels capable of maintaining traction become a precursor to getting into trouble? the system is intended to retard your excessive ability. But, I get your point. folks believe they can speed and do all sorts of things because xyz. That is true about RWD and people's overconfidence in their ability to control the vehicle because they view themselves as awesome drivers. Real world, you do not have a perfect slick pad, you have other drivers (who aren't as great of driver as you), and conditions are variable.
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  #34  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Depends on what is the iffy-condition. I use acceleration to put iffy-traffic conditions behind me. If I don't like someone's driving then I'm gone.
getting off the x
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  #35  
Old 04-21-2019, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by lmacmil View Post
And if "conditions...are pretty iffy" why would I want to get to speed much faster?
Exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
driving should be more safe, not fun to drive, when you are talking about driving in real life traffic not on the track or closed loops. Define fun to drive on RWD? Do you mean being able to brake contact patch? that's unsafe, regardless of how well you drive, when you have people around you and when conditions aren't controlled. Again, xdrive has its intended purpose, which is not just for snow.
I said it many times here that 6/10ths are my self-imposed limit on the public road and I will not go faster than that. I define 6/10ths as tires can be heard squealing but car is still on rails and there is no need to drive with your feet. Breaking traction on purpose means you will have to drive with your feet to control trajectory of the car - so, I agree with you. That said, though ...

1. You can certainly break traction in AWD vehicle as well. Your comment I quoted above could be misinterpreted as "you cannot break traction with AWD" - and that would be a dangerous assumption indeed.

2. RWD is definitely more fun and you do not need to break traction to feel it. But it does imply that you have limited slip differential on rear axle - just as I mentioned in my first reply here. When the diff locks, the inside wheel, that now turns much faster than it normally would, will let you feel the rotation from the rear without tires necessarily breaking traction.
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  #36  
Old 04-25-2019, 09:31 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark K View Post
Exactly

I said it many times here that 6/10ths are my self-imposed limit on the public road and I will not go faster than that. I define 6/10ths as tires can be heard squealing but car is still on rails and there is no need to drive with your feet. Breaking traction on purpose means you will have to drive with your feet to control trajectory of the car - so, I agree with you. That said, though ...

1. You can certainly break traction in AWD vehicle as well. Your comment I quoted above could be misinterpreted as "you cannot break traction with AWD" - and that would be a dangerous assumption indeed.

2. RWD is definitely more fun and you do not need to break traction to feel it. But it does imply that you have limited slip differential on rear axle - just as I mentioned in my first reply here. When the diff locks, the inside wheel, that now turns much faster than it normally would, will let you feel the rotation from the rear without tires necessarily breaking traction.
i'm glad you have a self calibrator capable of measuring into tenths. Actually, if a car's tires is squealing, by the very definition, it is no longer still on rails. The contact patches have lost traction

yes, I agree about breaking traction with AWD, considering you can turn of/on xdrive. I never said you could not break traction with AWD, but I get your poin.

do tell how anyone can tell the difference between RWD and xdrive which operates mostly in RWD, and how you can determine "fun", except as I understand your comment being able to break contact patch, which as noted above you can also do by pressing a switch on xdrive models.

anyway, to each their own, regardless of reality.
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  #37  
Old 04-26-2019, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by imtjm View Post
do tell how anyone can tell the difference between RWD and xdrive which operates mostly in RWD, and how you can determine "fun"...
The difference is felt in the steering. Having A/B'd rear wheel versus Xdrive, some of us can feel the additional 100+lbs directly on the front wheels. It feels heavier, more ponderous, and less crisp in response. I feel this in ordinary daily driving; it may or may not contribute to your driving enjoyment. Steering response is important enough to me, I seek optimal weight balance, and swapped out the LCAs for the M2 version for +1 degree of negative camber. Center dead spot is gone and responsiveness and feel are improved. This mod is not available on Xdrive vehicles.
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  #38  
Old 05-16-2019, 07:44 AM
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The difference is felt in the steering. Having A/B'd rear wheel versus Xdrive, some of us can feel the additional 100+lbs directly on the front wheels. It feels heavier, more ponderous, and less crisp in response. I feel this in ordinary daily driving; it may or may not contribute to your driving enjoyment. Steering response is important enough to me, I seek optimal weight balance, and swapped out the LCAs for the M2 version for +1 degree of negative camber. Center dead spot is gone and responsiveness and feel are improved. This mod is not available on Xdrive vehicles.
that's pretty funny, considering the balance ratio and electronic steering, but ok.
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  #39  
Old 05-16-2019, 11:26 AM
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that's pretty funny, considering the balance ratio and electronic steering, but ok.
Always glad to be a source of entertainment!

F/R weight distribution shifts approximately 2%, which can be felt. Electronic steering is a wash for both models, one with less weight on the front than the other. If you don't feel it, then nothing to worry about!
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  #40  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Always glad to be a source of entertainment!

F/R weight distribution shifts approximately 2%, which can be felt... If you don't feel it, then nothing to worry about!
Or if you feel it but it doesn't bother you! I think that would be me.
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  #41  
Old 05-16-2019, 12:26 PM
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Or if you feel it but it doesn't bother you! I think that would be me.
Everyone's welcome!
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  #42  
Old 05-17-2019, 08:56 AM
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Downside to X Drive

My 2015 M235Xi just had a second transfer case replaced, The first went in 7/16 @ 11k. The second case went out in 5/18 at 18k. !st unit was replaced under warranty. The second was replaced under BMW goodwill as it was out of warranty.
Good to see BMW standing behind a defective product. I hope this one is up to the task of daily driving.
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  #43  
Old 05-17-2019, 09:31 AM
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ooooh,

Question your saying with an x-drive you "don't" need snowies ?

I'm in the market for a 2 vert, and this kinda has peaked my attention

Quote:
Originally Posted by terryn View Post
More weight for sure. Also, its not as sophisticated as the Audi Quattro. The BMW X Drive has also jumped and jerked for me when backing and turning. Just doesn't feel good. On the other hand, I am on my third X Drive. I think it really helps in snow and allows me to run performance snow tires rather than having to go to a traditional snow tire. X Drive will also improve your 0-60 a little if that matters.
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Old 05-17-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by jaye944 View Post
ooooh,

Question your saying with an x-drive you "don't" need snowies ?

I'm in the market for a 2 vert, and this kinda has peaked my attention
If you live in an area with a moderate amount of snow and can wait until the roads are plowed, you can make do very well with an xDrive and all-season tires.

If you live in an area where it snows a lot or if you will be out before the plows, an xDrive with true snows is the better choice.

If you find yourself in an ice storm without snow tires, xDrive or no, premium A/S or not, it's going to be pretty bad. Even with true snow / ice tires, it's not a lot of fun.


In order of performance in the winter:
  1. xDrive with snow tires
  2. RWD with snow tires
  3. xDrive with all-seasons
  4. RWD with all-seasons

There is a big gap between #1 and #2. There is a moderate gap between the rest.
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  #45  
Old 05-18-2019, 10:27 AM
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nice , txs zooks,
I'm in Canadialand lol
GTA, so not a MASSIVE amount but certainly a fair amount and also ice storms


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zooks527 View Post
If you live in an area with a moderate amount of snow and can wait until the roads are plowed, you can make do very well with an xDrive and all-season tires.

If you live in an area where it snows a lot or if you will be out before the plows, an xDrive with true snows is the better choice.

If you find yourself in an ice storm without snow tires, xDrive or no, premium A/S or not, it's going to be pretty bad. Even with true snow / ice tires, it's not a lot of fun.


In order of performance in the winter:
  1. xDrive with snow tires
  2. RWD with snow tires
  3. xDrive with all-seasons
  4. RWD with all-seasons

There is a big gap between #1 and #2. There is a moderate gap between the rest.
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