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  #26  
Old 07-03-2020, 11:31 AM
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greginchi greginchi is offline
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I like this simple example...negotiate cap (MSRP-discount-rebates/etc.+acq fee) and MF (base) with dealer on BMWs...term sets residual. Never put cash towards cap reduction on lease. Roll acq fee into cap. Only pay for 1st, dealer and govt fees. Done.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-leasing/...e-payment.html

Last edited by greginchi; 07-03-2020 at 11:43 AM.
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  #27  
Old 07-03-2020, 05:17 PM
BlkBeauty BlkBeauty is offline
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Why would you allow them to throw any extras into the cap cost? The only ones which are mandatory are the lease acquisition fee, plates, and the dealership's document fee. (Plus in some states, the property taxes). But every single one of these should be disclosed up front. Get those in writing, plug them into your lease calculator and run the numbers BEFORE you show up to take delivery. Most of us have the payment worked out to the penny before we set foot in the Finance Manager's office.

Yes, they will try to upsell you on insurance plans, extended maintenance, wear and tear coverage (which actually make sense if you have a light color interior with small kids, or a significant other who cannot parallel park without grinding the alloy wheels against the curb), LoJack, VIN etched in the side windows, Rusty Jones and other nonsense. But every one of those is optional.

If you don't have your own lease calculator, use the one on Leasehackr.com. Just be sure to use the correct sales tax rate for your state.
Because I'm not as smart as you, OK? Hey, at least I didn't go in with an ad and say meet this price! (Just kidding, OP) Anyway, the extras rolled into the Gross Cap Cost were the $600 Maintenance Agreement, a $596 "pre-delivery service charge" (which included docs), and a $925 acquisition fee. No, I didn't get them ahead of time but I did know the other things I mentioned (MF, incentives etc.). I am still unclear on the Acquisition Fee -- it sounds like these are usually not negotiable? What about that $596 service charge? Now, about the maintenance agreement -- I had specifically told the guy I wanted NO extra warranties and he repeated it back to me. So he bamboozled me with double-talk and I didn't pick up the charge when I was signing that page. Lesson learned for next time and at least I got it back.

One of the problems I've found is that I have a hard time making sense of those "Lease Worksheets" they give you and translating them into the numbers on the actual final agreement.
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  #28  
Old 07-03-2020, 06:24 PM
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The thing I forget is most of us on this sub don't really care what the actual payment amount is...we care about getting a great sale price if buying or great cap/MF if leasing...the payment numbers just work out to be the payment numbers then. But most regular people have a payment number in mind based on budget, what they just got out of, etc. It is a totally different mindset that I never even think about...I just want a great sales price/cap/MF and could care less what payment turns out to be if I don't pay cash...but I sure know what all those numbers will be before convos with dealers.

I actually care about the monthly for my own deals. I still do it the way you are talking about, but put it in a lease calculator ahead of time so that I can see what the numbers are like @quack said.

Then, you can play with the numbers to see if you can actually afford that loaded car you are eyeing, or whatever.

Unlike some of you on this sub, I dont particularly "enjoy the hunt" so to speak, related to negotiating on car deals. I taught myself how to do it, mostly by reading here over the years, and paid it back by helping others for quite a while.

I dont like the hunt and negotiation part though. The BMW before the last one I bought, I figured everything out, found a dealer who had the exact build I wanted in stock, contacted them, and said "I will take this car if you will give me this deal (with everything laid out), if not, have a nice day, I will order a vehicle from a dealer local to me.

They met my price, and when I got there to pick it up, the finance guy had to "reprint the documents" 2 separate times because of "mistakes", and also tried to hard sell me on warranties etc. I almost walked out but had driven 3 hours to pick the car up.

I completely blasted them on the survey though, and got contacted by the GM who I had met when I first arrived. I detailed my experience in the finance office, and also told him that due to that I would never be back at that dealership. He apologized and asked me what he could do to make it right, and I told him that was a nice offer, but that bridge was burnt.

My last deal was completely different. I ordered from Greg P. we had an email exchange to discuss particulars, a 10 minute phonecall for a "verbal handshake" to order the car, and I waited for it to come in.

It was supposed to be in by the end of the year, but BMW delayed the build so it became an early 2019 delivery instead of late 2018. I still got the same deal structure, I drove to pick it up and was in and out of there in like 45 minutes tops, even with a lease return and me inspecting the new vehicle.

I got the deal I wanted, with literally zero stress. From gregs point of view it was likely easy too, since I had already specced out everything I wanted, didnt need a test drive, and didnt need hand holding on car status etc. Truly painless on both ends. If my wifes replacement vehicle for the X3 ends up being a BMW, I am definitely contacting Greg.
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  #29  
Old 07-03-2020, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BlkBeauty View Post
Because I'm not as smart as you, OK? Hey, at least I didn't go in with an ad and say meet this price! (Just kidding, OP) Anyway, the extras rolled into the Gross Cap Cost were the $600 Maintenance Agreement, a $596 "pre-delivery service charge" (which included docs), and a $925 acquisition fee. No, I didn't get them ahead of time but I did know the other things I mentioned (MF, incentives etc.). I am still unclear on the Acquisition Fee -- it sounds like these are usually not negotiable? What about that $596 service charge? Now, about the maintenance agreement -- I had specifically told the guy I wanted NO extra warranties and he repeated it back to me. So he bamboozled me with double-talk and I didn't pick up the charge when I was signing that page. Lesson learned for next time and at least I got it back.

One of the problems I've found is that I have a hard time making sense of those "Lease Worksheets" they give you and translating them into the numbers on the actual final agreement.
There is no problem taking your time...as much as you need...before signing anything...I will either ask them to send to me prior to visit for review or I've sat there for an hour while reading everything...especially when doing my first leases...this is why you do all your own calcs beforehand and know the payment...because if it is different there you can ask or see why and tell them to remove fees for things you don't want, etc.

Generally for cap there is page that shows how it is calculated and that is where you should be able to see the detail...if not, ask, be assertive because you are lucky they changed something after you signed.

PS, acq fee is one of big lease expenses/downsides which you get nothing for...it is a set admin fee that can't be marked up...best to roll in cap like it sounds like you did. Back in the day dealerships could also mark this up but no longer.

Last edited by greginchi; 07-03-2020 at 06:30 PM.
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  #30  
Old 07-04-2020, 08:12 AM
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Ibiza Ibiza is offline
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[QUOTE=greginchi;13383977
PS, acq fee is one of big lease expenses/downsides which you get nothing for...it is a set admin fee that can't be marked up...best to roll in cap like it sounds like you did. Back in the day dealerships could also mark this up but no longer.[/QUOTE]

Rolling the acquisition fee into the lease is roughly a 55% discount based an average residual of 55% across the BMW model portfolio, but is exclusive of the interest cost to finance the acquisition fee.

I have been able to roll all of the upfront costs in my last lease, as the only payment due at signing was the 1st month lease payment. SC sales tax is capped at $500 as we pay yearly property taxes.
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  #31  
Old 07-04-2020, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ibiza View Post
Rolling the acquisition fee into the lease is roughly a 55% discount based an average residual of 55% across the BMW model portfolio, but is exclusive of the interest cost to finance the acquisition fee.

I have been able to roll all of the upfront costs in my last lease, as the only payment due at signing was the 1st month lease payment. SC sales tax is capped at $500 as we pay yearly property taxes.
? Acq fee is not part of residual calculation. The reason for rolling in is if you total car early on you haven't paid for out of your pocket...same as reason for no down payment.

Last edited by greginchi; 07-04-2020 at 08:31 AM.
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  #32  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:45 AM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Originally Posted by BlkBeauty View Post
...the extras rolled into the Gross Cap Cost were the $600 Maintenance Agreement, a $596 "pre-delivery service charge" (which included docs), and a $925 acquisition fee.
If you don't want the Maintenance, you can have that unwound for a refund. Dealers are not supposed to charge customers for pre-delivery prep, but they can charge a Doc fee. Many of us negotiate an offsetting discount on the Doc Fee because we don't want to hear all the BS about how they have to charge everyone the same fee. They can charge it, we can negotiate it away elsewhere in the deal.

As your candor reminds us all, don't sign until you understand what you're signing. And, when the slick Finance person 'splains everything, tell him/her to put it in writing. If they won't, time to call in the Sales Manager for a little chat. We have alllll the time in the world to get the docs done right. Always.
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  #33  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:51 AM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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BTW, several sales people and one GM have all told me that the tensest time is when the customer is in F&I. People who sell cars are amazed that F&I people don't blow up more deals with their slick moves. The general consensus is, in addition to fatigue and a desire to get off the lot with the new car, customers don't want to be rude to the "professional" F&I sales person.

I'm never rude, just amazingly curious and slow-witted when I'm in the F&I box. "What you just told me doesn't match what's in my notes. Let's go over this part again.... and again, if necessary." Always looking for those teachable moments, educating F&I tricksters, one car deal at a time.
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  #34  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:58 AM
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My GOD this is a tough crowd.....

Feels even worse than normal.

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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

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  #35  
Old 07-04-2020, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post

....and slow-witted when I'm in the F&I box. "What you just told me doesn't match what's in my notes. Let's go over this part again....
Now Ive got this Colombo image.....
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #36  
Old 07-04-2020, 12:08 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Now Ive got this Colombo image.....
You are so on to me, ard.

A couple of deals ago, everything was set and I was walking away to sign the docs, and I turned and said, "Oh, and one more thing..." Got a free windshield sun shade tossed in. Thank you Colombo.

We had Basset Hounds when I was growing up. Colombo had one too, as I recall. Must be a deep psychic connection there.
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  #37  
Old 07-04-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
You are so on to me, ard.

A couple of deals ago, everything was set and I was walking away to sign the docs, and I turned and said, "Oh, and one more thing..." Got a free windshield sun shade tossed in. Thank you Colombo.

We had Basset Hounds when I was growing up. Colombo had one too, as I recall. Must be a deep psychic connection there.
Colombo would have walled out with an M5 Competition....

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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #38  
Old 07-04-2020, 01:31 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Colombo would have walled out with an M5 Competition....

1959 403 Cab with Basset:
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  #39  
Old 07-04-2020, 02:24 PM
BlkBeauty BlkBeauty is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
If you don't want the Maintenance, you can have that unwound for a refund. Dealers are not supposed to charge customers for pre-delivery prep, but they can charge a Doc fee. Many of us negotiate an offsetting discount on the Doc Fee because we don't want to hear all the BS about how they have to charge everyone the same fee. They can charge it, we can negotiate it away elsewhere in the deal.

As your candor reminds us all, don't sign until you understand what you're signing. And, when the slick Finance person 'splains everything, tell him/her to put it in writing. If they won't, time to call in the Sales Manager for a little chat. We have alllll the time in the world to get the docs done right. Always.
Maybe you didn't notice, but I did mention (twice now) that I got the $600 back. But not easily.

The first time, I had a phone convo with the Finance guy, where he proceeded to repeat what he had said to me in the office, which was a bunch of double-talk. I hung up, feeling confused and defeated. I started wondering whether it was just a line item where they had to put the value of the free maintenance. I then texted my sales guy to ask if the maintenance should cost $600. He said no. I then called BMW Financial Services, where they explained that the $600 was for some extra program where I'd get brake rotors and such. He said I signed for it and there wasn't anything he could do, I'd have to talk to the Finance guy. Again, feeling defeated, thinking well OK maybe it'll be worth it. Then I thought, wait, I've been leasing for 30 years and have never had to put on brake rotors! I then emailed the Finance guy and said I was still not happy about the $600 and that BMW FS told me I'd have to talk to him about it. Suddenly he was sorry for the confusion and would certainly refund my $600. Got the check and then started grumbling to myself that there was $72 interest I should've gotten. Was feeling defeated but then I thought, NO, he owes me 72 bucks!! I e-mailed him again and he sent me another check. So "getting it unwound for a refund" after you've signed is certainly no piece of cake.
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  #40  
Old 07-04-2020, 02:30 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Originally Posted by BlkBeauty View Post
Maybe you didn't notice, but I did mention (twice now) that I got the $600 back. But not easily.

The first time, I had a phone convo with the Finance guy, where he proceeded to repeat what he had said to me in the office, which was a bunch of double-talk. I hung up, feeling confused and defeated. I started wondering whether it was just a line item where they had to put the value of the free maintenance. I then texted my sales guy to ask if the maintenance should cost $600. He said no. I then called BMW Financial Services, where they explained that the $600 was for some extra program where I'd get brake rotors and such. He said I signed for it and there wasn't anything he could do, I'd have to talk to the Finance guy. Again, feeling defeated, thinking well OK maybe it'll be worth it. Then I thought, wait, I've been leasing for 30 years and have never had to put on brake rotors! I then emailed the Finance guy and said I was still not happy about the $600 and that BMW FS told me I'd have to talk to him about it. Suddenly he was sorry for the confusion and would certainly refund my $600. Got the check and then started grumbling to myself that there was $72 interest I should've gotten. Was feeling defeated but then I thought, NO, he owes me 72 bucks!! I e-mailed him again and he sent me another check. So "getting it unwound for a refund" after you've signed is certainly no piece of cake.
Right. Well done. Sorry if I was unclear -- I meant to reinforce that it can be unwound after your last mention of it.

The point you make is that, with tenacity, mistakes can be corrected. It shouldn't be difficult, and BMW has put tremendous effort into customer satisfaction as a stated priority. Reality of the marketplace remains, as ever, buyer beware. And when they slip something past even the most aware buyer, it is important to do whatever is required to get it fixed. For the sake of others who will, hopefully, have an easier time in the future.
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  #41  
Old 07-04-2020, 02:38 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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BTW, it happened to me on my last deal. In an email exchange with the GSM who put our most recent deal together, I came up $30 below his number for the state license fee. I went to the state DMV web site,twice,and each time the tag fee was exactly $30 less than the GSM was quoting.

In a final email exchange the GSM assured me that the paperwork would correctly reflect the DMV fees and I would not be over charged.

When we went to take delivery a few days later the GSM was at the hospital with a sick mother-in-law situation. So the F&I guy prepared the docs. I quickly glanced through them and confirmed that the bottom line numbers matched what the GSM had emailed me, and, due to a stupid lapse of memory, I failed to realize that, of course the numbers matched, but they were $30 over!!! So I failed to question this, comforted that the numbers in my notes matched the numbers on the docs.

Turns out the DMV I had pulled from the DMV web site was correct, but the dealer's system automatically added a $30 "doc transfer fee" which got us to the number the GSM had quoted.

When I got home I caught the error. My wife said, "They got you the one-off color you wanted and gave you a great deal. His mother-in-law is in the hospital and you're gonna bug him now?? Let them keep their $30." I let it go,to my ongoing shame. Don't care about the $30. But every time something like this goes unchallenged, it weakens the system and makes it harder on the next guy. My bad, my bad, my bad.

Last edited by 1968BMW2800; 07-04-2020 at 02:48 PM.
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  #42  
Old 07-04-2020, 04:29 PM
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greginchi greginchi is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
BTW, it happened to me on my last deal. In an email exchange with the GSM who put our most recent deal together, I came up $30 below his number for the state license fee. I went to the state DMV web site,twice,and each time the tag fee was exactly $30 less than the GSM was quoting.

In a final email exchange the GSM assured me that the paperwork would correctly reflect the DMV fees and I would not be over charged.

When we went to take delivery a few days later the GSM was at the hospital with a sick mother-in-law situation. So the F&I guy prepared the docs. I quickly glanced through them and confirmed that the bottom line numbers matched what the GSM had emailed me, and, due to a stupid lapse of memory, I failed to realize that, of course the numbers matched, but they were $30 over!!! So I failed to question this, comforted that the numbers in my notes matched the numbers on the docs.

Turns out the DMV I had pulled from the DMV web site was correct, but the dealer's system automatically added a $30 "doc transfer fee" which got us to the number the GSM had quoted.

When I got home I caught the error. My wife said, "They got you the one-off color you wanted and gave you a great deal. His mother-in-law is in the hospital and you're gonna bug him now?? Let them keep their $30." I let it go,to my ongoing shame. Don't care about the $30. But every time something like this goes unchallenged, it weakens the system and makes it harder on the next guy. My bad, my bad, my bad.
Man, there are some real whack jobs on this site...
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  #43  
Old 07-04-2020, 04:54 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Man, there are some real whack jobs on this site...
Yeah, well, somebody owes me thirty dollars.
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  #44  
Old 07-05-2020, 06:00 AM
SteveinArizona SteveinArizona is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
BTW, several sales people and one GM have all told me that the tensest time is when the customer is in F&I. People who sell cars are amazed that F&I people don't blow up more deals with their slick moves. The general consensus is, in addition to fatigue and a desire to get off the lot with the new car, customers don't want to be rude to the "professional" F&I sales person.

I'm never rude, just amazingly curious and slow-witted when I'm in the F&I box. "What you just told me doesn't match what's in my notes. Let's go over this part again.... and again, if necessary." Always looking for those teachable moments, educating F&I tricksters, one car deal at a time.
You are a kind and generous person. The first time they changed terms on me, I walk out the door and don't come back. Life is too short and there are many BMW dealerships (at least in my metro area).

It is a simple matter of trust. If they changed one thing, what else did they change? What might I have missed? Most importantly, why should I have to check for hidden changes?
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  #45  
Old 07-05-2020, 06:15 AM
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Look at us geezers talking about Columbo. While all the Millennials shake their heads and ask "WTF does yogurt have to do with leasing a BMW?"

We deserve the "Okay Boomers" on this thread.....
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Old 07-05-2020, 06:20 AM
SteveinArizona SteveinArizona is offline
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Look at us geezers talking about Columbo. While all the Millennials shake their heads and ask "WTF does yogurt have to do with leasing a BMW?"

We deserve the "Okay Boomers" on this thread.....
Hey...didn't you hear? Corona virus is caused by Corona beer! And Corona virus is making it harder to sell cars so there is a connection. Of course, one has to be really, really stupid but we seem to have plenty of those around.
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  #47  
Old 07-08-2020, 04:50 PM
IlCacciatore IlCacciatore is offline
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"Hey, at least I didn't go in with an ad and say meet this price! (Just kidding, OP)"

Ouch! Ok, now more advice please.

Here is info on the latest new 2020 230i convertible lease I am currently negotiating: 36, mos, 10,000 miles. Car has under 20 miles and has been on the lot for over 10 months.

MSRP $50,090.
$2000 July incentive
$500 retention
$1436 dealer contribution

$46,154 cap cost

mf is .00099 (2.37%)

53% residual

$1500 drive off but I do not know how that is allocated

$635.41 per month includes 9% tax.

The sales person said it was $1500. below invoice. Money factor and drive off seem ok.

There should be more room on the price for a car that will be discontinued after this year. What do you folks say?

Last edited by IlCacciatore; 07-08-2020 at 04:55 PM.
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  #48  
Old 07-08-2020, 06:14 PM
BlkBeauty BlkBeauty is offline
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Location: Florida
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 51
Mein Auto: 2019 330i M-sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by IlCacciatore View Post
"Hey, at least I didn't go in with an ad and say meet this price! (Just kidding, OP)"

Ouch! Ok, now more advice please.

Here is info on the latest new 2020 230i convertible lease I am currently negotiating: 36, mos, 10,000 miles. Car has under 20 miles and has been on the lot for over 10 months.

MSRP $50,090.
$2000 July incentive
$500 retention
$1436 dealer contribution

$46,154 cap cost

mf is .00099 (2.37%)

53% residual

$1500 drive off but I do not know how that is allocated

$635.41 per month includes 9% tax.

The sales person said it was $1500. below invoice. Money factor and drive off seem ok.

There should be more room on the price for a car that will be discontinued after this year. What do you folks say?
I'm not a math (or lease) expert, but the payment seems high. My car was $45,700 adjusted cap cost and the payment is $548 including tax (I think 7%). My MF was .00065 and I put down multiple security deposits to get it lower. Did you check Edmund's to see what the current MF is? Also, yeah, the dealer is only kicking in $1436 after the incentives....hardly a great discount.
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2008 335i
2000 528i
1989 325i

Last edited by BlkBeauty; 07-08-2020 at 06:15 PM. Reason: typo
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  #49  
Old 07-08-2020, 06:27 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Location: Southern California
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,755
Mein Auto: MINI Clubman S All4
That 53% residual makes for a steep hill to climb.

Assuming you pay the $925 lease fee as part of the drive off, plus tags and first month's payment, say around $2,200 ~ $2,800 out the door, with 35 more monthly payments of around $598, including your 9% tax rate, it would require about 7.5% discount from MSRP from the dealer, and then $2,500 incentives/rebates on top of that to get you to under $600/month with less than 3 grand to start.

If you want the lease fee folded into the monthly payments to lower your initial drive off, then the dealer is going to have to discount the car around $4,750 or about 9.5% from MSRP, before rebates/incentives to keep that monthly under $600.

My target for this car would certainly be under $600/month, and less than that if I paid the lease fee up front as part of the drive off.

So now we get into philosophy. The dealer has made you an offer. If you love the car and are comfortable with the dealer's numbers, and you've calculated them yourself so you know exactly how the dealer got there, and you're numbers match, you're good.

Some of us decide what we're willing to pay and we make the dealer an offer and see what happens. There is something magic about, "at these terms and these numbers, I'm prepared to sign today." And these terms and numbers include agreement on any lease-end turn in charges on what you're driving now -- don't want any lease inspection surprises.

Also, make sure you understand how many miles you're renting and what it will cost if you need more miles at lease end. That's a potential cost,too.

Good luck.

Last edited by 1968BMW2800; 07-08-2020 at 06:28 PM.
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  #50  
Old 07-08-2020, 07:50 PM
IlCacciatore IlCacciatore is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 20
Mein Auto:
Thanks Ibiza. I thought the 53% residual was low too. Another problem is that the numbers are not working with what he told me when I put them in lease hacker and leasematic. The reason is I was quoted $635. including 9%tax Per month with total drive off of $1500. The payment is under $500. + tax so within the parameters but i don’t know why. We talked these numbers over the phone but he has not emailed them to me. I wrote everything down as we talked.

To answer the philosophical question the car has everything I was looking for so I could easily drive it for 3 years. I like that this is the last of the 2 series convertibles. Again thanks for everyone’s comments.
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