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  #2651  
Old 12-17-2018, 01:06 PM
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Back on leases, S and X can't be leased any more:

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-s-leasing...ort-1831145129


One interesting data point on the link below:

1. look how steep the change of the used cars prices are based on mileage (this however can be kept on a leash when leasing)
2. look how large price variance is for one data point in miles. For a 40k miles car it can go from $37k to $52k.
https://tesla-info.com/US/detail.php...543264a3b0bf6d
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  #2652  
Old 12-19-2018, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Back on leases, S and X can't be leased any more:

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-s-leasing...ort-1831145129


One interesting data point on the link below:

1. look how steep the change of the used cars prices are based on mileage (this however can be kept on a leash when leasing)
2. look how large price variance is for one data point in miles. For a 40k miles car it can go from $37k to $52k.
https://tesla-info.com/US/detail.php...543264a3b0bf6d
A lease alternative is a 2018 330e lease, BMWFS now has $5k incentive, plus $1k loyalty. Local sales are aggressive in pricing and even cash/finance may get same $6k off.

A base 330e invoice is $44485, so it is possible to get one for below $39k + tax + fee(if base inventory is available).

Now if the new G20 330e(coming summer 2019) base goes for $39k(after incentives) + tax + fee that will be a great buy.

Key Facts / Figures:

111bhp electric motor
181bhp two-liter inline four-cylinder gas engine(other reference says 400Nm, or 295lb-ft)
High-voltage lithium-ion battery(12kWh)
System output: 185 kW/252 hp
XtraBoost: temporarily + 30 kW/41 hp to 215 kW(252 + 41 = 293HP)
0-100kmh: 6.0 seconds
Emissions: from 39g CO2 per km
Electric-only range: up to 60km (37 miles)
Market launch: Summer 2019

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1555557

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  #2653  
Old 12-19-2018, 12:08 PM
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So this local Model S caught fire twice in a day, first time while parked at a tire shop, then again after towed to repair shop.

The fire crew apparently waited 6 hours before moving the car, but it still ignited a second time.

Is there any lithium ion battery expert on bimmerfest that can shed some lights on how this can happen?

Yesterday's local ambient temperature was quite moderate, so that should not be a factor.

https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/...bay/1666229133

Last edited by namelessman; 12-19-2018 at 12:10 PM.
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  #2654  
Old 12-19-2018, 12:44 PM
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I'm not expert, but these batteries can catch on fire if

- charge voltage is too high (possible only if the charger fails)
- short circuit or overload = high current overheats the cells (I'm pretty sure there is safety protection for it)
- puncture
- external fire of course

Based on where the flames came from initially I thought there was an electrical short under the frunk which caught on fire but who knows.
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  #2655  
Old 12-19-2018, 01:03 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Is there any lithium ion battery expert on bimmerfest that can shed some lights on how this can happen?
I'm not a LI battery expert, but fires involving lithium metal can be difficult to fully extinguish due to the metal's reactivity with oxygen in the air.
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  #2656  
Old 12-19-2018, 01:39 PM
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I'm not a LI battery expert, but fires involving lithium metal can be difficult to fully extinguish due to the metal's reactivity with oxygen in the air.
There has been spontaneous fires of hybrids with LI batteries too. The latest NCA and NMC from various makes appear to be variants of LI batteries, so the basic building blocks still can be susceptible to similar safety issues.
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  #2657  
Old 12-19-2018, 01:43 PM
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There has been spontaneous fires of hybrids with LI batteries too. The latest NCA and NMC from various makes appear to be variants of LI batteries, so the basic building blocks still can be susceptible to similar safety issues.
There is a difference though. NMC has higher runaway temperature.

And when comparing Model 3 to Audi E-Tron, Audi built a strong battery case while Tesla built a strong chassis frame around the battery. Which means Tesla battery has a higher chance of getting punctured.
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  #2658  
Old 12-19-2018, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
There is a difference though. NMC has higher runaway temperature.

And when comparing Model 3 to Audi E-Tron, Audi built a strong battery case while Tesla built a strong chassis frame around the battery. Which means Tesla battery has a higher chance of getting punctured.
Why do you say the bolded part above? I don't know how you could make such a determination without extensive destructive testing or at least access to both companies detailed engineering specifications.
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  #2659  
Old 12-19-2018, 03:35 PM
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Why do you say the bolded part above? I don't know how you could make such a determination without extensive destructive testing or at least access to both companies detailed engineering specifications.
"Audi e-tron pack built for crashworthiness, not heat transfer
This pack is built like a tank."

"On the other hand, Tesla uses the vehicle body structure as the primary crash resistance."

https://insideevs.com/audi-e-tron-ba...tesla-model-3/


Tesla had to fix the Model S underbody: https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-add...plates-model-s

As far as I know, the Model 3 doesn't have this kind of Titanium protection but I guess they did improve the design.
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  #2660  
Old 12-19-2018, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
"Audi e-tron pack built for crashworthiness, not heat transfer
This pack is built like a tank."

"On the other hand, Tesla uses the vehicle body structure as the primary crash resistance."

https://insideevs.com/audi-e-tron-ba...tesla-model-3/


Tesla had to fix the Model S underbody: https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-add...plates-model-s

As far as I know, the Model 3 doesn't have this kind of Titanium protection but I guess they did improve the design.
In above insdieevs.com link the eTron battery pack parts diagram shows a "battery frame" part.

In the below article, that battery frame looks like a bumper rail reinforcement.

https://insideevs.com/audi-e-tron-ba...k-motors-more/

In comparison the Model S battery frame looks different:
https://electrek.co/2017/01/24/tesla...-battery-pack/
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  #2661  
Old 12-19-2018, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
"Audi e-tron pack built for crashworthiness, not heat transfer
This pack is built like a tank."

"On the other hand, Tesla uses the vehicle body structure as the primary crash resistance."

https://insideevs.com/audi-e-tron-ba...tesla-model-3/


Tesla had to fix the Model S underbody: https://www.tesla.com/blog/tesla-add...plates-model-s

As far as I know, the Model 3 doesn't have this kind of Titanium protection but I guess they did improve the design.
The Inside EV article is long on speculation and short on facts, and the part you quoted is the only part even talking about the different approaches Audi and Tesla chose for protecting the battery pack. Most of the article is about how Audi is keeping its batteries cool at the elevated charging rate they're talking about.


There's no discussion in the article about the pluses and minuses of the two different approaches to protecting the battery pack, and based on the minimal facts in the rest of the article, I would find any speculations by the author to be rather questionable. The article really doesn't state, imply, or suggest which battery packaging system is safer.


I would say that Tesla has far more experience with electric cars than Audi/VW/Porsche. With that experience, I think it is likely that Tesla knows exactly what it takes to make an EV battery pack safe. The early Model S problem that you cite is evidence of this; there's no substitute for experience, and Audi/VW/Porsche simply don't have the experience with EVs that Tesla has.
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  #2662  
Old 12-19-2018, 05:04 PM
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Audi may be better than Tesla but it will take some effort to exceed the S. I can't comment on the 3. The trailer hitch that punctured the S battery caused Tesla to take an aggressive stance. Watching an S run over a trailer hitch and just ride over it makes it look more like an offload vehicle with reinforced underbelly than a family sedan.
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  #2663  
Old 12-19-2018, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
There's no discussion in the article about the pluses and minuses of the two different approaches to protecting the battery pack, and based on the minimal facts in the rest of the article, I would find any speculations by the author to be rather questionable. The article really doesn't state, imply, or suggest which battery packaging system is safer.
Exactly. Since this is a safety issue, if there's a systematic design issue with the battery there will be required recalls. Just like what BMW, Mercedes and other car makers have recently done with their own spontaneous combusting vehicles.

"40 cases in the last five years in which BMW owners said that parked cars that were not then subject to recalls for fire-related issues spontaneously burst into flames. Some of them, they said, had been turned off for hours or even days."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/bmw-recall...ire-risk/story

"Spontaneous Combustion of Parked BMWs Get a 'News at 11' Close-up"
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...news-11-close/

"Mercedes, a week off the dealer's lot, catches fire and explodes on I-205 (video)"
https://www.oregonlive.com/commuting...off_the_d.html

"Daimler recalls Mercedes after dozens catch fire"
https://www.engadget.com/2017/03/03/...mercedes-fire/
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  #2664  
Old 12-19-2018, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I would say that Tesla has far more experience with electric cars than Audi/VW/Porsche. With that experience, I think it is likely that Tesla knows exactly what it takes to make an EV battery pack safe. The early Model S problem that you cite is evidence of this; there's no substitute for experience, and Audi/VW/Porsche simply don't have the experience with EVs that Tesla has.
The latest Model 3 double-ignite case does not appear to be crash related(unless the car did encounter a collision before heading to tire shop), if so the battery pack crash safety should not be an issue in that case.

Independent tests(e.g. IIHS) did show Model S battery not bursting into flame while the car was pulled into the barrier at 40mph(?). Do note it is not exact real life scenario(with electric motor running and battery heating up), but still it is the only common test available(that can be applied to eTron too). Maybe there should be new battery safety specific tests that can provide additional clues to consumers which battery packs are less likely to catch fire regardless of crash or not.

An interesting point is that, good old ICE crash tests are also not real life, e.g. gas tanks and fluids are all drained(plus engine not running and no red hot exhaust manifold and such), or else IIHS test facilities could have been burnt to the ground long long ago!

Last edited by namelessman; 12-19-2018 at 05:33 PM.
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  #2665  
Old 12-19-2018, 05:53 PM
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"40 cases in the last five years in which BMW owners said that parked cars that were not then subject to recalls for fire-related issues spontaneously burst into flames. Some of them, they said, had been turned off for hours or even days."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/bmw-recall...ire-risk/story
For that recall of 1.6m cars, a failure model was provided by BMW:

"Automaker BMW says it is expanding a recall to cover 1.6 million vehicles worldwide due to possible fluid leaks that could result in a fire.

BMW said Tuesday that in some diesel vehicles, coolant could leak from the exhaust gas recirculation module, part of the emissions reduction system. The leaks could combine with soot at high temperatures and lead to a fire"

Has Telsa provided any clue about their battery fires to consumers/customers(any link)? There is no fluid(except battery coolant), no hot exhaust, so where does the first flame start?
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  #2666  
Old 12-19-2018, 06:11 PM
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The latest Model 3 double-ignite case does not appear to be crash related(unless the car did encounter a collision before heading to tire shop), if so the battery pack crash safety should not be an issue in that case.

Model 3? I haven't heard of that. Perhaps you're thinking the Model S cited earlier in the thread?
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  #2667  
Old 12-19-2018, 06:38 PM
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Model 3? I haven't heard of that. Perhaps you're thinking the Model S cited earlier in the thread?
Typo, post#2664 refers to the local Model S fire yesterday.
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  #2668  
Old 12-19-2018, 07:03 PM
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The Inside EV article is long on speculation and short on facts, and the part you quoted is the only part even talking about the different approaches Audi and Tesla chose for protecting the battery pack. Most of the article is about how Audi is keeping its batteries cool at the elevated charging rate they're talking about.


There's no discussion in the article about the pluses and minuses of the two different approaches to protecting the battery pack, and based on the minimal facts in the rest of the article, I would find any speculations by the author to be rather questionable. The article really doesn't state, imply, or suggest which battery packaging system is safer.


I would say that Tesla has far more experience with electric cars than Audi/VW/Porsche. With that experience, I think it is likely that Tesla knows exactly what it takes to make an EV battery pack safe. The early Model S problem that you cite is evidence of this; there's no substitute for experience, and Audi/VW/Porsche simply don't have the experience with EVs that Tesla has.

The Audi battery cell is sealed in a metal case, 12 pack of these sealed in a metal box, placed inside the battery frame is safer than pencil cells glued together, put in a plastic case and placed in the battery frame. Audi has the multi-zone crash bar around the battery. Tesla Model 3 battery isn't that well protected (which is a problem on the front side, rest is surrounded by the chassis).
Tesla is not only a young company but the turnover rate is high and they need to learn every aspect of car design and manufacturing.
When an ICE car maker steps into the electric field, the only area they need to learn is the battery and the motors.

VW has sold 70 000 eGolf since 2014, they tested 500 eGolfs since 2008 before going live. Both BMW and VW had their first electric cars in the 70's. BMW had a production ready electric car in 1992. They do have a clue.
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Old 12-19-2018, 07:06 PM
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Typo, post#2664 refers to the local Model S fire yesterday.



Over the years, I think there's been 2 or 3 fires without prior damage in Model S's. It will be interesting to hear what the cause of this latest one was. In any case, fires without prior damage occur occasionally with gas engined cars as well. Any source of energy that is sufficient to propel us around in our cars will have the occasional accident until mankind manages to make perfect machines. I don't see that happening any time soon.
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Old 12-19-2018, 07:26 PM
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The Audi battery cell is sealed in a metal case, 12 pack of these sealed in a metal box, placed inside the battery frame is safer than pencil cells glued together, put in a plastic case and placed in the battery frame. Audi has the multi-zone crash bar around the battery. Tesla Model 3 battery isn't that well protected (which is a problem on the front side, rest is surrounded by the chassis).
Tesla is not only a young company but the turnover rate is high and they need to learn every aspect of car design and manufacturing.
When an ICE car maker steps into the electric field, the only area they need to learn is the battery and the motors.

VW has sold 70 000 eGolf since 2014, they tested 500 eGolfs since 2008 before going live. Both BMW and VW had their first electric cars in the 70's. BMW had a production ready electric car in 1992. They do have a clue.
I think you are making a tremendous number of assumptions without knowing any of the specific engineering details that have gone into the designs of either the Audi and Tesla battery packs. If the Model 3 battery pack were as poorly protected as you suggest, I think we would have heard of numerous fires over the last couple of years considering the number of Model 3s on the road. Instead, as far as I know, there have been no Model 3 battery fires, despite at least a few truly nasty crashes.


Regarding VW's and BMW's electric car experience, it really does pale compared to Tesla's. Tesla has over 300,000 vehicles sold to date with dramatically larger battery packs then any VW or BMW offerings production vehicles. As for 2008, that's when Tesla started manufacturing cars for sale to the public, not just a few test vehicles, and really started hitting its stride with volume production in 2012.
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Old 12-19-2018, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I think you are making a tremendous number of assumptions without knowing any of the specific engineering details that have gone into the designs of either the Audi and Tesla battery packs. If the Model 3 battery pack were as poorly protected as you suggest, I think we would have heard of numerous fires over the last couple of years considering the number of Model 3s on the road. Instead, as far as I know, there have been no Model 3 battery fires, despite at least a few truly nasty crashes.


Regarding VW's and BMW's electric car experience, it really does pale compared to Tesla's. Tesla has over 300,000 vehicles sold to date with dramatically larger battery packs then any VW or BMW offerings production vehicles. As for 2008, that's when Tesla started manufacturing cars for sale to the public, not just a few test vehicles, and really started hitting its stride with volume production in 2012.

I think if there is someone here who needs experience is Tesla. Their reliability equals to the lowest tier ICE manufacturers, like GM and FCA. Even though electric cars contain far less number of parts.

Model 3 isn't out on the streets for so long. Majority of it is less than 6 months old. At the same time I don't wish anyone to experience any fire. I just think Audi is safer in many aspects including the battery.

And I don't know everything of course. I'm however well read in the subject, have hands on experience and I'm a designer in the automotive industry.

BMW and others are racing in Formula E.
Porsche knows a thing or two about the electrons as well. I have no doubt the Taycan will be amazing. They promise no thermal limitation.
Watch this hybrid from 2013.

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Old 12-19-2018, 08:03 PM
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forgot to attach this Model S battery frame

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Old 12-19-2018, 08:47 PM
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The Audi battery cell is sealed in a metal case, 12 pack of these sealed in a metal box, placed inside the battery frame is safer than pencil cells glued together, put in a plastic case and placed in the battery frame. Audi has the multi-zone crash bar around the battery. Tesla Model 3 battery isn't that well protected (which is a problem on the front side, rest is surrounded by the chassis).
It's painfully obvious to me you're no engineer. Having a few decades of engineering work as well as some that include Lithium batteries I wouldn't even know to begin to list the complexity of pros and cons to safety of each potential design - even if I knew every detail of each design.

The fact that you can assert an opinion with so little details and so little knowledge is really textbook Dunning-Kruger effect.

I will say this - Tesla 2170 and 18650 cells enclose a much smaller bit of energy into 4,000-6,000 encapsulated metal containers that contain thermal and heat energy and help limit the threshold of a runway with each cell being better shielded from the other. Cooling is much easier with more surface area in contact with the chemistry.

The pouch design has the huge disadvantage of putting a lot more energy into a lot less containment. You may need a different battery frame to compensate for that.

This is one difference out of many dozens or hundreds that's taken into consideration into the design.

No you can't look at a few pictures and read a few blog posts and assert you really know much about the engineering decisions and tradeoffs that are made and suddenly declare the Audi 'safer'.
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Old 12-19-2018, 08:54 PM
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Has Telsa provided any clue about their battery fires to consumers/customers(any link)? There is no fluid(except battery coolant), no hot exhaust, so where does the first flame start?
It's really a case by case basis. In one they found a bullet lodged in the battery pack from someone firing a bullet from the cabin:

https://electrek.co/2018/12/16/tesla...ullet-battery/

If there was a systematic issue there would probably be a recall done with a fix implemented.
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Old 12-19-2018, 09:20 PM
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Porsche knows a thing or two about the electrons as well. I have no doubt the Taycan will be amazing. They promise no thermal limitation.
I hope the Taycan is amazing. But it doesn't make much difference to the EV landscape. The market to drop six figures on a car that isn't nearly as easy to travel out of town with as a Tesla is small. And the total volume they are producing per year only equal a few weeks of the Model 3 production.

The Model 3 has no thermal limits for 99.99% of the population. It's great there's a company like Porsche to address the .001% who want to wring a EV at Laguna Seca with no thermal limits, but that really shouldn't be Tesla's focus to address the .001% unless it's for a halo car like the next Roadster.
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