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  #3826  
Old 01-19-2020, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
What issue(s) brought the car in service 8 times? Dual transmissions are complicated, an alternative is extended range like i3's gasoline powered electric generator.
Check out his original thread. The story doesn't add up.
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  #3827  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
I really think if you are tired of normal car problems then go try a Tesla out. The car is just amazing to drive and of all the new cars I've owned this is the least problematic in initial quality.

The only problem is the winter driving range is not so good, I get about 60-70% range in winter. So instead of the 300mi range I have, I get about 225 in the winter with the heater on. This means I need to charge more often. For what it's worth it beats every BMW in this class in terms of performance.
You forgot to tell how amazing FSD is. I will believe every single word you say I promise. https://twitter.com/AlanZavari/statu...54336477712384
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  #3828  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
The only problem is the winter driving range is not so good, I get about 60-70% range in winter. So instead of the 300mi range I have, I get about 225 in the winter with the heater on. This means I need to charge more often. For what it's worth it beats every BMW in this class in terms of performance.
225 miles of range is pretty good, the Model 3 owners at work after a year see 270 miles 100% charge, and that drops 30%-50%@Tahoe driving.

Tesla is supposedly already at forefront of battery tech, but the tech itself(owned by Panasonic) is still not advancing fast enough to make EV a compelling alternative to ICE.
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  #3829  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:09 AM
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I think the autopilot recognised the trailer as a road going up...

(post # 3827 link,)

Last edited by Dio///M; 01-19-2020 at 01:10 AM.
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  #3830  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:21 AM
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I think the autopilot recognised the trailer as a road going up...

(post # 3827 link,)
AI/ML/FSD are tough problems to solve, and human spatial regonition and vision and perception are still light years ahead of any man-made system.

My impression is that some form of inference is good enough for FSD, but maybe real-time training is needed. BTW, the bleeding edge training solution conumes 15kW, and requires a radiator-size cooling system. Just imagine a 75kWh battery can only power such a system for 5 hours, leaving 0kW for winter heating/moving 4000lb+ around.
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  #3831  
Old 01-19-2020, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
225 miles of range is pretty good, the Model 3 owners at work after a year see 270 miles 100% charge, and that drops 30%-50%@Tahoe driving.

Tesla is supposedly already at forefront of battery tech, but the tech itself(owned by Panasonic) is still not advancing fast enough to make EV a compelling alternative to ICE.
There are plenty of Tesla drivers and owners out there who disagree regarding whether or not an EV is a compelling alternative to ICE. I bought a Model 3 because I liked the way it drove and functioned better than any of its ICE competitors. After over a year of ownership and 19k miles, I like it better now than when we first bought it, and it's actually an even better car now than when we bought it due to increased power and speedier Supercharging.

As for your "Model 3 owners at work", I think there is a lot of spin in your statements. There might be a few LR Model 3s out there that are down to 270 miles of range after 1 year, but they're a rarity, not the norm. As for losing range going to Tahoe, that would be due primarily to the altitude gain. Both EVs and ICE cars lose a significant amount of range when going up mountains. Some of the range reduction could be due to temperature as well if you're talking about going to Tahoe during the winter; EVs do lose a noticeable amount of range due to low temperatures while ICE cars lose very little range due to low temperatures.
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  #3832  
Old 01-19-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
There are plenty of Tesla drivers and owners out there who disagree regarding whether or not an EV is a compelling alternative to ICE. I bought a Model 3 because I liked the way it drove and functioned better than any of its ICE competitors. After over a year of ownership and 19k miles, I like it better now than when we first bought it, and it's actually an even better car now than when we bought it due to increased power and speedier Supercharging.

As for your "Model 3 owners at work", I think there is a lot of spin in your statements. There might be a few LR Model 3s out there that are down to 270 miles of range after 1 year, but they're a rarity, not the norm. As for losing range going to Tahoe, that would be due primarily to the altitude gain. Both EVs and ICE cars lose a significant amount of range when going up mountains. Some of the range reduction could be due to temperature as well if you're talking about going to Tahoe during the winter; EVs do lose a noticeable amount of range due to low temperatures while ICE cars lose very little range due to low temperatures.
The Model 3 owners at work are OK with their Model 3, as that is not their only cars, so they do choose to use their tools as needed and fit to the tasks.

At the same time, they do not spin and praise Tesla like many do, and adapt to improve the user experience of their tools, e.g. carry adapters to bypass crowded "speedier" superchargers, use ICE to head to Tahoe(or have another ICE in the group), learn to use evtripplanner, etc, etc. As of the "updated" range, they just take it as is and move on.

As for the performance boost, does it come with free battery capacity increase too?
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  #3833  
Old 01-19-2020, 11:29 AM
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This came out a few days ago, from all accounts by Tesla enthusiasts, BMW M should have been doomed, so why did BMW M sales break record?

Which side is spinning and which side is telling the truth?

https://www.bimmerfest.com/news/1364...-sales-record/
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  #3834  
Old 01-19-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This came out a few days ago, from all accounts by Tesla enthusiasts, BMW M should have been doomed, so why did BMW M sales break record?

Which side is spinning and which side is telling the truth?

https://www.bimmerfest.com/news/1364...-sales-record/
Why should BMW M be doomed? I just checked and there are 11 M series BMWs sold in the U.S. today. How many of those does Tesla have a model to compete with? Now, why are you personally spinning so hard?
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  #3835  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:06 PM
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Why should BMW M be doomed? I just checked and there are 11 M series BMWs sold in the U.S. today. How many of those does Tesla have a model to compete with? Now, why are you personally spinning so hard?
BMW says US M sales was 44442 in 2019, so that is 121+ a day, are u saying your projection of 2020 M sales to be 10% of 2019 sales?

Is there a link to 11 M sales/day data?

What is the breakdown of Tesla Performance US sales number in 2019?
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  #3836  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
BMW says US M sales was 44442 in 2019, so that is 121+ a day, are u saying your projection of 2020 M sales to be 10% of 2019 sales?

Is there a link to 11 M sales/day data?

What is the breakdown of Tesla Performance US sales number in 2019?
You misunderstood my post. There are 11 different M models that BMW sells in the U.S. currently, from the M2 to the M8 and 9 more in between. Tesla only has 3 comparable models, the S, X, and 3 Performance versions. Therefore, BMW has a larger percentage of the market covered than Tesla.

As far as I know, Tesla has never released a breakdown of how many Performance model cars have been sold versus other models. Estimates that I've seen of Tesla's total sales for 2019 are about 190,000. While I think quite a few of those are performance models, I think it could be as low as 10% or as high as 30% which is a pretty wide variance.

Last edited by GregD; 01-19-2020 at 02:28 PM.
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  #3837  
Old 01-19-2020, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
You misunderstood my post. There are 11 different M models that BMW sells in the U.S. currently, from the M2 to the M8 and 9 more in between. Tesla only has 3 comparable models, the S, X, and 3 Performance versions. Therefore, BMW has a larger percentage of the market covered than Tesla.


As far as I know, Tesla has never released a breakdown of how many Performance model cars have been sold versus other models. Estimates that I've seen of Tesla's total sales for 2019 are about 190,000. While I think quite a few of those are performance models, I think it could be as low as 10% or as high as 30% which is a pretty wide variance.
Got it, so your take is fair comparison should be Model 3 performance head-to-head with M3/M4(e.g.).

There seems to be no breakdown of M variants from BMW neither, so both sides just selectively disclose data that supports their causes.
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  #3838  
Old 01-19-2020, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Got it, so your take is fair comparison should be Model 3 performance head-to-head with M3/M4(e.g.).

There seems to be no breakdown of M variants from BMW neither, so both sides just selectively disclose data that supports their causes.
I agree with both of your statements.
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  #3839  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I agree with both of your statements.
Also let's "unspin" the statement that BMW has 11 M models to compete.

Currently M GmbH has 4 M cars, namely, M2(coupe), M4(coupe, vert), M5 sedan, M8(coupe, vert, GC), with 7 variants total.

BMW says M GmbH US sale is 44442.

There are also 4 M performance cars, including X3M, X4M, X5M, X6M.

The total sales of M and M performance together was 135,829 in 2019.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1686533

Out of all these M and M performance models, only M5 is a sedan that competes with high-spec Model S.

And it looks like Model X also competes with X5M and X6M, right?

So for now it looks like M GmbH is churning along just fine amidst the Tesla onslaught.
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  #3840  
Old 01-20-2020, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Also let's "unspin" the statement that BMW has 11 M models to compete.

Currently M GmbH has 4 M cars, namely, M2(coupe), M4(coupe, vert), M5 sedan, M8(coupe, vert, GC), with 7 variants total.

BMW says M GmbH US sale is 44442.

There are also 4 M performance cars, including X3M, X4M, X5M, X6M.

The total sales of M and M performance together was 135,829 in 2019.

https://g20.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1686533

Out of all these M and M performance models, only M5 is a sedan that competes with high-spec Model S.

And it looks like Model X also competes with X5M and X6M, right?

So for now it looks like M GmbH is churning along just fine amidst the Tesla onslaught.
Go to bmwusa.com, select Build your own, then select M, and it shows 11 different M models. Now you can try to make up your own definitions, but I'll go with what BMW says. Also, you're lumping coupes and convertibles together which I don't think makes much sense since they definitely have different markets they appeal to. Tesla has nothing to compete with in the convertible market today.

Your 135,829 number is a worldwide number; we were discussing U.S. sales numbers. BMW has a significant advantage in the number of markets where BMW cars are sold compared to Tesla.
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  #3841  
Old 01-20-2020, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
Go to bmwusa.com, select Build your own, then select M, and it shows 11 different M models. Now you can try to make up your own definitions, but I'll go with what BMW says. Also, you're lumping coupes and convertibles together which I don't think makes much sense since they definitely have different markets they appeal to. Tesla has nothing to compete with in the convertible market today.

Your 135,829 number is a worldwide number; we were discussing U.S. sales numbers. BMW has a significant advantage in the number of markets where BMW cars are sold compared to Tesla.
The spinning can go either way, and obviously done by both sides, e.g. while Tesla has no coupe/vert to compete with BMW, at the same time, BMW has no M/M performance sedan that competes with Tesla Model 3, right?

So in 2020, BMW will have new M3 sedan to compete with Tesla Model 3 Performance, and Tesla will have Model Y(high spec ones) to compete with X3M/X4M(right?)

As far as bmwusa.com's layout, at one point the categories were 2-series, 3-series, ...., and then the non-M and M and M performance under 3-series(e.g.) as variants of the series(which are the models per my interpretation).

The latest layout has been shock and awe to throw the number of configurations at customers. One can surely selectively interpret anyway one wants.

And as far as spinning of 135829 versus 44442 numbers, at least BMW provides some geographical breakdowns, while Tesla is adamant to spin worldwide numbers, likely to de-emphasize their small number of market segments right now.
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  #3842  
Old 01-20-2020, 10:31 PM
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Wow, this is still happening


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  #3843  
Old 01-20-2020, 11:03 PM
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Wow, this is still happening
There is a known issue in 8/2018, is this affected unit a pre-8/2018 production?

https://ww.electrek.co/2018/08/13/te...-broke-off/#is
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  #3844  
Old 01-20-2020, 11:55 PM
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There is a known issue in 8/2018, is this affected unit a pre-8/2018 production?

https://ww.electrek.co/2018/08/13/te...-broke-off/#is
I thought this is a newer car otherwise it would have already fallen off.

The guy didn't say the production date. It has a March sticker. Bulletin says only June 2018 is affected.
https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/20...53849-9999.pdf
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  #3845  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:30 AM
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This RAV4 hybrid ([email protected]$30k) can be a worthy competitor to Model Y(and X3 PHEV too).

It seems to me Tesla will run into more competition with Toyota than with the German permium brands.

https://www.kbb.com/articles/car-new...-rav4-plug-in/
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  #3846  
Old 01-28-2020, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This RAV4 hybrid ([email protected]$30k) can be a worthy competitor to Model Y(and X3 PHEV too).

It seems to me Tesla will run into more competition with Toyota than with the German permium brands.

https://www.kbb.com/articles/car-new...-rav4-plug-in/
No it can't.

Despite your bizarre obsession with hybrids and hydrogen cars very few people interested in a full BEV would settle for a hybrid or weirdo mobile that runs on hydrogen.
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Old 01-28-2020, 09:30 PM
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No it can't.

Despite your bizarre obsession with hybrids and hydrogen cars very few people interested in a full BEV would settle for a hybrid or weirdo mobile that runs on hydrogen.
I have a bizarre obsession with this hybrid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918_Spyder
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  #3848  
Old 01-29-2020, 09:11 AM
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No it can't.

Despite your bizarre obsession with hybrids and hydrogen cars very few people interested in a full BEV would settle for a hybrid or weirdo mobile that runs on hydrogen.
The obsession(and spinning?) is all relative.

Nonetheless manufacturers like to shoot themselves, e.g. BMW G20 hybrid is $3500+ more expensive than non-hybrid, maybe BMWNA will have extra incentive for that, or else it will create a price barrier.
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  #3849  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This RAV4 hybrid ([email protected]$30k) can be a worthy competitor to Model Y(and X3 PHEV too).

It seems to me Tesla will run into more competition with Toyota than with the German permium brands.

https://www.kbb.com/articles/car-new...-rav4-plug-in/
+1
Ironically, the second generation RAV4 EV (see photo below) sourced its AC induction motor and battery pack from Tesla.

RAV4 PHEV will be well received in the marketplace. It wouldn't be surprising if within a year from introduction, RAV4 PHEV outsells the Prius Prime. Prius Prime is currently the best selling plug-in vehicle in the U.S. from a real automaker. The regular non plug-in RAV4 Hybrid is currently the best selling hybrid vehicle in the U.S. and outsold the regular Prius last year.

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  #3850  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:10 PM
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+1
Ironically, the second generation RAV4 EV (see photo below) sourced its AC induction motor and battery pack from Tesla.

I do agree with you that the RAV4 PHEV will be well received in the marketplace. It wouldn't be surprising if within a year from introduction, RAV4 PHEV outsells the Prius Prime. Prius Prime is currently the best selling plug-in vehicle in the U.S. from a real automaker.
Yes 2nd gen RAV4 EV(2012-2014) was limited production, like less than 3000 units?

This latest RAV4 PHEV is more practical than Prius Prime, and price(projected) is also good.

If my F30 TC blows up and BMWNA refuses to fix, then this RAV4 PHEV will be a good candidate to consider.
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