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  #3851  
Old 01-29-2020, 10:01 PM
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  #3852  
Old 01-30-2020, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
+1
Ironically, the second generation RAV4 EV (see photo below) sourced its AC induction motor and battery pack from Tesla.

RAV4 PHEV will be well received in the marketplace. It wouldn't be surprising if within a year from introduction, RAV4 PHEV outsells the Prius Prime. Prius Prime is currently the best selling plug-in vehicle in the U.S. from a real automaker. The regular non plug-in RAV4 Hybrid is currently the best selling hybrid vehicle in the U.S. and outsold the regular Prius last year.
So Toyota is getting their AC motor and battery from Tesla but Tesla is not a "real" automaker?

OK champ.

Make sure you go read Tesla Q4 earnings results when you want to puff your chest out about how Toyota is doing. (spoiler alert, Tesla handily beat earnings and Toyota missed earnings estimates).
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  #3853  
Old 01-30-2020, 11:04 AM
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acoste acoste is offline
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
So Toyota is getting their AC motor and battery from Tesla but Tesla is not a "real" automaker?

OK champ.

Make sure you go read Tesla Q4 earnings results when you want to puff your chest out about how Toyota is doing. (spoiler alert, Tesla handily beat earnings and Toyota missed earnings estimates).
Toyota haven't reported their earnings yet.
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  #3854  
Old 01-30-2020, 03:58 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
So Toyota is getting their AC motor and battery from Tesla but Tesla is not a "real" automaker?
Tesla is a real tech company, not necessary a real automaker.

The best product from Tesla illustrates this fact very well.
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  #3855  
Old 01-30-2020, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Tesla is a real tech company, not necessary a real automaker.

The best product from Tesla illustrates this fact very well.
When you produce hundreds of thousands of cars a year, you're about as real an automaker as it gets.
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  #3856  
Old 01-30-2020, 05:55 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
When you produce hundreds of thousands of cars a year, you're about as real an automaker as it gets.
My view is that Tesla produces hundreds of thousands of tech toys that its customers crave for, and that is a great receipt for TSLA momentum.
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  #3857  
Old 01-30-2020, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
My view is that Tesla produces hundreds of thousands of tech toys that its customers crave for, and that is a great receipt for TSLA momentum.
I bought my Model 3 for transportation from place to place, and for an enjoyable driving experience. I think that is why most people have bought Teslas, not because they are "tech toys". While Teslas certainly have plenty of tech toys in them, so do most cars today. That said, I will agree that Teslas have more tech toys than most and that some are quite unique compared to all other car manufacturers offerings.
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  #3858  
Old 01-31-2020, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
So Toyota is getting their AC motor and battery from Tesla
No. RAV4 EV production ended in 2014, as did Toyota's use of Tesla as a supplier.
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  #3859  
Old 01-31-2020, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Toyota haven't reported their earnings yet.
Correct. TMC FY2020 3Q financial results will be released February 6.
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  #3860  
Old 01-31-2020, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gkr778 View Post
No. RAV4 EV production ended in 2014, as did Toyota's use of Tesla as a supplier.
With only 2600 2nd gen RAV4 EV built, this car was really a test run.
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  #3861  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:24 AM
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Rented a diesel G20 in Europe this time. No EV can compete with that in terms of road tripping. Did 500 miles on one tank, driving between 80 and 130mph.
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  #3862  
Old 02-09-2020, 04:23 AM
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"Tesla remotely disables Autopilot on used Model S after it was sold

Tesla says the owner can’t use features it says ‘they did not pay for"

.

.

. What the hell! So basically you can buy a used tesla and there's no certainty that you'll have some of the features a while later...

.

. Lol... Tesla


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  #3863  
Old 02-09-2020, 07:38 AM
karzrus karzrus is offline
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Originally Posted by Dio///M View Post
"Tesla remotely disables Autopilot on used Model S after it was sold

Tesla says the owner can’t use features it says ‘they did not pay for"

.

.

. What the hell! So basically you can buy a used tesla and there's no certainty that you'll have some of the features a while later...

.

. Lol... Tesla
So Tesla wants to resell the options on a car they already sold. Why not disable the whole car and make the second owner buy everything off them? Maybe that's the next step?
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  #3864  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Dio///M View Post
"Tesla remotely disables Autopilot on used Model S after it was sold

Tesla says the owner can't use features it says 'they did not pay for"
It is unclear from jalponik article, so did Tesla object to the new owner not paying for these features, or was it the original owner who got FSD/AP without paying?
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  #3865  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
It is unclear from jalponik article, so did Tesla object to the new owner not paying for these features, or was it the original owner who got FSD/AP without paying?
There was a period of time where Tesla added AP to used cars in order move them faster.

For anyone who is buying into the hysteria, if you paid for AP and sell your car to someone else Tesla does not deactivate the features. This appears to be one of a handful of "one off" situations in which possibly the AP was never even originally paid for and Tesla caught it in an audit.

Since Tesla advertised to the 3rd party dealer who THEY sold the car to that the car had AP and AP was functional when the transaction was completed, Tesla should do the honorable thing and turn the feature back on.

Your version of events though in which an evil Tesla tries to rip off customers by getting a double dip on paid for features sure plays better with the Tesla hating crowd.
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  #3866  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:50 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
Your version of events though in which an evil Tesla tries to rip off customers by getting a double dip on paid for features sure plays better with the Tesla hating crowd.
My post#3864 said the following, so what specific version of events is your post referring to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
It is unclear from jalponik article, so did Tesla object to the new owner not paying for these features, or was it the original owner who got FSD/AP without paying?
Also in another thread the following question was raised too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The car is supposed to be auctioned, and later sold, as-is, correct? If so it will not make sense Tesla can delete feature OTA.
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  #3867  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:59 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
There was a period of time where Tesla added AP to used cars in order move them faster.
....
Since Tesla advertised to the 3rd party dealer who THEY sold the car to that the car had AP and AP was functional when the transaction was completed, Tesla should do the honorable thing and turn the feature back on.
It is unclear if there are contract clauses that say "free" AP on used cars from Tesla is only for the first used car buyer.

Also it is unclear if the auction listing of the Model S with AP/FSD in question had clear disclosure that AP/FSD will not follow the car after auction.

If either of the above 2 disclosures is not in effect, then Tesla should not just arbitrarily disable those features after the sales are final.
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  #3868  
Old 02-09-2020, 10:04 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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So the jalponik article now has screenshots of window sticker that showed EAP + FSD, as well as signed auction disclosure form that showed no intent to de-content the car after auction.

The used car dealer also commented that in his anecdotal experience(of selling dozens of used Tesla's yearly), this was not the first occasion that Tesla deleted features after sales.

Some Tesla enthusiasts may try to spin this as one-off, and/or make up versions of events that fit their mindsets, but these incidents(if factual) should be strongly objected by Tesla owners to keep Tesla honest.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-...mer-1841472617
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  #3869  
Old 02-10-2020, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
So the jalponik article now has screenshots of window sticker that showed EAP + FSD, as well as signed auction disclosure form that showed no intent to de-content the car after auction.

The used car dealer also commented that in his anecdotal experience(of selling dozens of used Tesla's yearly), this was not the first occasion that Tesla deleted features after sales.

Some Tesla enthusiasts may try to spin this as one-off, and/or make up versions of events that fit their mindsets, but these incidents(if factual) should be strongly objected by Tesla owners to keep Tesla honest.

https://jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-...mer-1841472617
If the purchaser has that type of proof, it's blatant breech of contract, and Tesla won't be able to get away with it. From what I've seen over the years, every manufacturer and dealer out there occasionally does something stupid like this. The difference is that Tesla gets massive publicity for any possible wrong, whereas rare instances like this from other manufacturers and dealers are generally ignored by the media.
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  #3870  
Old 02-10-2020, 10:34 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
If the purchaser has that type of proof, it's blatant breech of contract, and Tesla won't be able to get away with it. From what I've seen over the years, every manufacturer and dealer out there occasionally does something stupid like this. The difference is that Tesla gets massive publicity for any possible wrong, whereas rare instances like this from other manufacturers and dealers are generally ignored by the media.
This specific Telsa mishap is drowned by media covering TSLA shooting up and down., and is mainly discussed(rightfully so) at Tesla forums.

Nonetheless this sets a bad precedence that other manufacturers can follow, and that's bad for everyone.

E.g. imagine someone buys a used F30 328i, and then a dealer visit can strip factory tune to downgrade to 320i(same engine in both 320i and 328i except a software tune).
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  #3871  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This specific Telsa mishap is drowned by media covering TSLA shooting up and down., and is mainly discussed(rightfully so) at Tesla forums.

Nonetheless this sets a bad precedence that other manufacturers can follow, and that's bad for everyone.

E.g. imagine someone buys a used F30 328i, and then a dealer visit can strip factory tune to downgrade to 320i(same engine in both 320i and 328i except a software tune).
This really isn't anything new and there is no precedent being set. Plenty of manufacturers including BMW have put the wrong software on their cars over the years. The bottom line is that assuming the story is true as presented, Tesla is in breech of contract, doesn't have a leg to stand on, and will have to fix it.

I actually have personal experience with BMW screwing up the programming on a car. I have a 2003 330i ZHP. The early ones like mine had some issues with the engine programming and when the dealer tried to fix it, they put the regular 330i programming on it. I noticed it fairly quickly since the redline was 300RPM less. I took it back to the dealer and they insisted that it had the right software on it.

What I ended up doing was taking it to a dyno where I videoed it being run up to redline and top speed; the ZHP package also raised the top speed limiter to 155 MPH. When I showed the video to the dealer, they finally admitted that they had put the wrong software on it, but to fix it, they had to send the processor to BMW corporate to get it programmed properly which took about a week with the car down.

Last edited by GregD; 02-10-2020 at 12:47 PM.
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  #3872  
Old 02-10-2020, 02:26 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
This really isn't anything new and there is no precedent being set. Plenty of manufacturers including BMW have put the wrong software on their cars over the years. The bottom line is that assuming the story is true as presented, Tesla is in breech of contract, doesn't have a leg to stand on, and will have to fix it.

I actually have personal experience with BMW screwing up the programming on a car. I have a 2003 330i ZHP. The early ones like mine had some issues with the engine programming and when the dealer tried to fix it, they put the regular 330i programming on it. I noticed it fairly quickly since the redline was 300RPM less. I took it back to the dealer and they insisted that it had the right software on it.

What I ended up doing was taking it to a dyno where I videoed it being run up to redline and top speed; the ZHP package also raised the top speed limiter to 155 MPH. When I showed the video to the dealer, they finally admitted that they had put the wrong software on it, but to fix it, they had to send the processor to BMW corporate to get it programmed properly which took about a week with the car down.
Your experience was incorrect ECU integration level within new car warranty, right?

Your case has up to the end of new car warranty to fix, at all costs, or BMW can lemon/buyback at minimal cost to customers.

Similarly my F30 went through several iterations of alarm HW + SW updates as guinea pigs, there was zero worry on my part that it would work(and it did).

What Tesla did this round is very different from incorrect software update.
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  #3873  
Old 02-11-2020, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Your experience was incorrect ECU integration level within new car warranty, right?

Your case has up to the end of new car warranty to fix, at all costs, or BMW can lemon/buyback at minimal cost to customers.

Similarly my F30 went through several iterations of alarm HW + SW updates as guinea pigs, there was zero worry on my part that it would work(and it did).

What Tesla did this round is very different from incorrect software update.
It is not as different as you state.

AP existing on the car is simply a software switch. The car (not the owner) has the switch set based on whether AP was ever legally purchased. Tesla have over the years occasionally done things like accidentally enabling AP for cars where nobody ever purchased it, they catch this later in an audit and patch it out and the person who never paid for AP loses it.

In this case Tesla indicated to the dealer that the car had AP, then later determined it had never been purchased and turned it off. As Greg said, legally Tesla has no leg to stand on.

Alternatively let's say that you have a Tesla where AP was accidentally turned on by Tesla. You quickly sell the car to a new owner and advertise it has working AP since you can demonstrate it.

Then Tesla catches the error and turns it off. Is the new buyer of the car entitled to the feature that was never actually purchased by anyone?

What Tesla needs to do is add the purchase/contract information about AP to the vehicle information screen so it shows when AP was purchased.... if AP is turned on due to a software error, free trial period, etc., then it should be apparent that it has not yet been purchased.
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  #3874  
Old 02-11-2020, 09:14 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by voip-ninja View Post
It is not as different as you state.
The main difference(even among software updates) is really that Tesla can do OTA to add/delete major features on a sold car, and this incident surely sets a precedence by deploying OTA after final sales of a used car.

Greg's example of botched service visit is in a different class of problems, and the only resemblance to this Tesla's incident is software related(and that covers a lot of things these days).
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  #3875  
Old 02-11-2020, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The main difference(even among software updates) is really that Tesla can do OTA to add/delete major features on a sold car, and this incident surely sets a precedence by deploying OTA after final sales of a used car.

Greg's example of botched service visit is in a different class of problems, and the only resemblance to this Tesla's incident is software related(and that covers a lot of things these days).
The only difference I see between the two is that Teslas can be updated OTA without bringing them to the dealer while my car had to be brought to the dealer. From a legal standpoint, I don't see why it would matter whether the wrong software was installed OTA or at the dealer.
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