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  #3926  
Old 03-16-2020, 04:04 PM
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Default being the key term there. Default manufacturer settings are what are used by most organizations, including the EPA, when testing a vehicle. The default setting is called "Standard"; the weak regen setting is called "Low", and Tesla specifically recommends it for use in snow or icy conditions. I don't think too many owners switch into Low for any other reason.
But it makes EPA numbers not comparable. Companies who decide to use lower default regen wlll get lower EPA numbers.
If you look at the EPA city cycle you notice how important regen is. And this test weights 55% in the final results. While highway cycle I shared earlier is weighted at 45%. (but even the highway cycle is slow compared to a road trip) EPA rated range has little to do what a car can reach on a road trip where range matters.


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  #3927  
Old 03-16-2020, 04:14 PM
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But it makes EPA numbers not comparable. Companies who decide to use lower default regen wlll get lower EPA numbers.
If you look at the EPA city cycle you notice how important regen is. And this test weights 55% in the final results. While highway cycle I shared earlier is weighted at 45%. (but even the highway cycle is slow compared to a road trip) EPA rated range has little to do what a car can reach on a road trip where range matters.


What a silly argument. EPA, like Consumer Reports, and most other organizations that test cars, do so in the configuration recommended by the manufacturer. The results are therefore reflective of how the vehicle owners will normally use their cars and that is what the EPA is testing. Other manufacturers are free to set up their cars as they like, Tesla has no advantage or disadvantage in this regard.

As for the EPA's rated range, Teslas and other EVs all have to go with the same standards that are supposed to reflect the overall average usage of cars. If you don't like the EPA's standards, you should talk to them. In any case, Teslas generally do better on the highway than most other EVs due to being more aerodynamic. The base Taycan is the only EV that I know of with a better Cd than the Tesla Model 3 or S, and it's a pretty small difference at .22 to .23. The higher spec Taycan Turbo S has a Cd of .25.
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  #3928  
Old 03-17-2020, 11:16 PM
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An hour ago Tesla factory was deemed non-essential business by Alameda County Public Health and will be shutdown to protect its 10k workers.

This decision went against Musk's intent to keep factory running.
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  #3929  
Old 03-20-2020, 07:07 AM
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I posted a comparison between my E90 and Model 3 on reddit and basically people disagreed with me but I anticipated that since most people didn't have any seat time on both cars.

My main complaint was that the Model 3 wasn't as good as a driver's oriented car as my E90. The main thing was the fuel savings, torque, and tech. But other than those things the Model 3 wasn't polished enough vs my E90.

I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible but it's not possible for Tesla fans who are upset with my review.

I mentioned these things:

- The fake leather seats just doesn't feel high quality enough once you sit on it long enough, cost cutting measure.

- Heated steering wheel should be included to save energy and not rely on electric heater fan. I'm ok driving with just the heated wheel/seats on my E90 during winter, usually warms me up. The Tesla I have to use heat it is so darn cold inside without heat.

- Handling of the car is very tricky, the car can perform but the electronic stability is too intrusive and I never had one car that I had to fight ESP this much. On a Model 3 Performance with track mode, it's too dangerous to drive on regular roads. The amount of torque the car puts down I had the car almost on it's side pulling out of a turn.

- The rear view mirror is too tiny, I know the screen has rear camera but it's difficult to drive without the rear view mirror which is eye level. Having to check the center screen makes you lower your eye. I often just drive with the 3D map which lets me see what cars are around me instead.

I'm not saying it's a bad car, just overall not a good driver's car. It's designed for commuting not for road enthusiast. Comparing to my E90 which lacks the HP but the handling is much more predictable and better turn in than the Model 3 which doesn't like sharp angle turns it will pull you back slows you down even though it has a lot of grip with AWD. I'm constantly fighting the ESP.

Last edited by Vision33r; 03-20-2020 at 07:12 AM.
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  #3930  
Old 03-20-2020, 07:09 AM
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An hour ago Tesla factory was deemed non-essential business by Alameda County Public Health and will be shutdown to protect its 10k workers.
For a pyramid scheme like Tesla, being deemed a "non-essential business" should be an honor!
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  #3931  
Old 03-22-2020, 02:55 PM
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For a pyramid scheme like Tesla, being deemed a "non-essential business" should be an honor!
Statements like this are what upset people. I have zero problem with Vision33r's comments. He did an honest comparison. Some things I agree with and others I disagree with but the opinions are his. However, calling Tesla a pyramid scheme is a huge stretch. You might disagree with the way the company is run or not like their financials. However, I have a hard time viewing it as a pyramid scheme. Musk is on an aggressive growth plan. It may be too aggressive and the company may not survive but that doesn't make it a pyramid scheme.
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  #3932  
Old 03-22-2020, 09:09 PM
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However, calling Tesla a pyramid scheme is a huge stretch.
By definition a pyramid scheme needs new customers to pay returns/gains to previous customers, so Tesla does not look like a pyramid scheme in the context of retail customers.

From another perspective, Tesla does raise rounds after rounds of money to finance its operations, and Tesla does use money raised in current rounds to repay principal and pay interest from previous rounds, like in a pyramid scheme.

Tesla, and any company that keeps seeking new money to pay off existing obligation, e.g. US govt(?!?), can get into trouble when new investors do not bite.

The chance of that happening to Tesla is a lot higher than US govt.

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  #3933  
Old 03-23-2020, 08:30 AM
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By definition a pyramid scheme needs new customers to pay returns/gains to previous customers, so Tesla does not look like a pyramid scheme in the context of retail customers.

From another perspective, Tesla does raise rounds after rounds of money to finance its operations, and Tesla does use money raised in current rounds to repay principal and pay interest from previous rounds, like in a pyramid scheme.

Tesla, and any company that keeps seeking new money to pay off existing obligation, e.g. US govt(?!?), can get into trouble when new investors do not bite.

The chance of that happening to Tesla is a lot higher than US govt.
Tesla is best viewed as an aggressive growth company with all of the positives and negatives that implies. Tesla could be very profitable if they weren't aggressively growing but they would be run over by other companies later on. They are in a grow or die situation. Their margins are good but they have to grow crazy fast before their advantages erode away. The danger is that this crazy growth strategy leaves them vulnerable to cashflow issues. Both Apple and Google have tried to buy them in the past so I guess that is the downside scenario.
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  #3934  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by SR22pilot View Post
Tesla is best viewed as an aggressive growth company with all of the positives and negatives that implies. Tesla could be very profitable if they weren't aggressively growing but they would be run over by other companies later on. They are in a grow or die situation. Their margins are good but they have to grow crazy fast before their advantages erode away. The danger is that this crazy growth strategy leaves them vulnerable to cashflow issues. Both Apple and Google have tried to buy them in the past so I guess that is the downside scenario.
Tesla's current(depressed?) mkt cap of 80B prices itself out from acquisition. Tesla is priced as a high growth tech stock, and drops more than other tech stocks with huge cash moats.
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  #3935  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:44 AM
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Tesla's current(depressed?) mkt cap of 80B prices itself out from acquisition. Tesla is priced as a high growth tech stock, and drops more than other tech stocks with huge cash moats.
I totally agree. However, if things turned bad the stock would drop. At $100/share it would be well below what has been offered in the past.
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  #3936  
Old 03-23-2020, 10:58 AM
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I totally agree. However, if things turned bad the stock would drop. At $100/share it would be well below what has been offered in the past.
Yes $100 and around $20B should be good price points for acquisition.
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  #3937  
Old 03-24-2020, 05:38 PM
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BMW with its own battery chemistry has pretty good degradation results.



Insideevs guessed 4% degradation for their i3 at 69k mi.
Tesla Bjorn's test shows 10% degradation for a 22kWh i3 after 62k miles.

2014 BMW i3 22kWH
EPA hwy cycle: 102mi

2012 Tesla Model S 85D
EPA hwy cycle: 335mi


62k mi equals to 608 charge cycle based on the EPA hwy cycle above. Cycle number is most likely more since people drive faster than the EPA cycle, but this is a good reference.

608 charge cycle for the Model S based on the EPA hwy cycle ratio above means 608*335 = 204k mi.



There aren't many capacity tests with 200k mi Teslas so I can't give the exact example but here are some from Bjorn:

Model X P90D 47k mi degradation: 6%
Model X P90D 62k mi degradation: 8%
Model S 85 62k mi degradation: 4%


Adding to the list: https://insideevs.com/news/405885/te...-146000-miles/

Model S 70D 146k mi 5 years (1000 cycle) degradation: 15%
Total lifetime consumption: 59675kWh
That is 59.7kWh/146k mi = 409Wh/mi (includes vampire drain)
Battery efficiency: 59675/63298 = 94.3% (this includes self discharge when parked)
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Last edited by acoste; 03-24-2020 at 05:43 PM.
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  #3938  
Old 03-24-2020, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Vision33r View Post
I posted a comparison between my E90 and Model 3 on reddit and basically people disagreed with me but I anticipated that since most people didn't have any seat time on both cars.

My main complaint was that the Model 3 wasn't as good as a driver's oriented car as my E90. The main thing was the fuel savings, torque, and tech. But other than those things the Model 3 wasn't polished enough vs my E90.

I'm trying to be as unbiased as possible but it's not possible for Tesla fans who are upset with my review.

I mentioned these things:

- The fake leather seats just doesn't feel high quality enough once you sit on it long enough, cost cutting measure.

- Heated steering wheel should be included to save energy and not rely on electric heater fan. I'm ok driving with just the heated wheel/seats on my E90 during winter, usually warms me up. The Tesla I have to use heat it is so darn cold inside without heat.

- Handling of the car is very tricky, the car can perform but the electronic stability is too intrusive and I never had one car that I had to fight ESP this much. On a Model 3 Performance with track mode, it's too dangerous to drive on regular roads. The amount of torque the car puts down I had the car almost on it's side pulling out of a turn.

- The rear view mirror is too tiny, I know the screen has rear camera but it's difficult to drive without the rear view mirror which is eye level. Having to check the center screen makes you lower your eye. I often just drive with the 3D map which lets me see what cars are around me instead.

I'm not saying it's a bad car, just overall not a good driver's car. It's designed for commuting not for road enthusiast. Comparing to my E90 which lacks the HP but the handling is much more predictable and better turn in than the Model 3 which doesn't like sharp angle turns it will pull you back slows you down even though it has a lot of grip with AWD. I'm constantly fighting the ESP.
Lot of people buy it for the mission and for Elon. Since they don't understand technical details and are often not car guys, they believe everything what Elon says. It is impossible to reach them with different opinions. Specially now that the share price is in the sky. This gives them more confidence.
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  #3939  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:36 PM
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Lot of people buy it for the mission and for Elon. Since they don't understand technical details and are often not car guys, they believe everything what Elon says. It is impossible to reach them with different opinions. Specially now that the share price is in the sky. This gives them more confidence.
Absurd. Virtually everyone who came from a BMW and went to a Tesla is a "car guy". Sure, it's not as refined interior wise as a BMW but driver experience? Way better. Handles better. Faster. What more does a "car guy" want?
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  #3940  
Old 03-24-2020, 07:51 PM
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Absurd. Virtually everyone who came from a BMW and went to a Tesla is a "car guy". Sure, it's not as refined interior wise as a BMW but driver experience? Way better. Handles better. Faster. What more does a "car guy" want?
I drove one and don't share your opinion. My stick shift with proper suspension is much more fun.

Consumer Reports results don't support it either. Despite the immediate torque it scores lower in driving experience. People enjoy driving the less powerful and mostly automatic BMWs more.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...postcount=3893
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  #3941  
Old 03-24-2020, 08:44 PM
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Absurd. Virtually everyone who came from a BMW and went to a Tesla is a "car guy". Sure, it's not as refined interior wise as a BMW but driver experience? Way better. Handles better. Faster. What more does a "car guy" want?
I don't think half of the BMW owners I know are car guys (My accountant sure isn't)and I don't even think everyone on this forum who owns a BMW is a car guy based on some of the questions we see for help, further I don't think Elon Musk is a car guy. I think he is a visionary guy, I think he is a Marketer and a Salesman, but not much of a car guy. I do think he has "car guys" working at Tesla.

I also truly doubt that even half of the buyers of Telsa products are car guys either (I know my friend with a model S isn't, although if you ask him he might think he is) and moving from a BMW to a Tesla does not help or change that.

As far as what car guys want it's hard to speak for everyone and I'll certainly get it wrong, but for me fast and handles well are high on the list, but it must have style, fit and finish, quality of materials, feel and sound or maybe no sound?

I remember back(early eighties) when I worked on my first Japanese car a first generation Honda Accord. after messing with loads of North American cars I was not looking forward to pulling apart the drive train of a rusty FWD car. But I was pleasantly surprised how simple and accessible it all was to work on, like the engineers had considered how the machine would go together and come apart for repairs. Now I think I value good engineering and good quality as much as anything.

Tesla has come along way in a short time, but for me I think Tesla still has some maturing to do.
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  #3942  
Old 03-24-2020, 11:35 PM
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I drove one and don't share your opinion. My stick shift with proper suspension is much more fun.

Consumer Reports results don't support it either. Despite the immediate torque it scores lower in driving experience. People enjoy driving the less powerful and mostly automatic BMWs more.

https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sh...postcount=3893
Different people value different aspects of the driving experience as more or less fun. For me, a car's responsiveness is the primary determinant of how much I enjoy the driving experience. That responsiveness is a combination of steering, suspension, throttle, braking on any car. In the case of an ICE car, the responsiveness of the transmission, and if equipped with a manual, the shifter and clutch figure in as well.

When it comes to the overall steering, suspension, and throttle response, I like the Model 3 better than any BMW I've driven, including M3s of any generation. I also find the brakes to be more responsive on the Model 3 than most BMWs, although some are comparable. The Model 3 has no transmission, but that's a positive since transmissions only serve to make a car less responsive to driver input. Doing away with a transmission like the Teslas have done, provides better throttle response than any ICE car can even hope to achieve.

You say that Consumer Reports scores the Model 3 lower than the BMW in "driving experience", but Consumer Reports doesn't do a driver experience score. Consumer Reports does a "road test" score that also has factors such as ride smoothness, quietness, and comfort given a high priority. Those aren't factors that I generally consider important to the driving experience, but perhaps they are to you.
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  #3943  
Old 04-13-2020, 11:19 AM
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I don't think half of the BMW owners I know are car guys (My accountant sure isn't)and I don't even think everyone on this forum who owns a BMW is a car guy based on some of the questions we see for help, further I don't think Elon Musk is a car guy. I think he is a visionary guy, I think he is a Marketer and a Salesman, but not much of a car guy. I do think he has "car guys" working at Tesla.

I also truly doubt that even half of the buyers of Telsa products are car guys either (I know my friend with a model S isn't, although if you ask him he might think he is) and moving from a BMW to a Tesla does not help or change that.

As far as what car guys want it's hard to speak for everyone and I'll certainly get it wrong, but for me fast and handles well are high on the list, but it must have style, fit and finish, quality of materials, feel and sound or maybe no sound?

I remember back(early eighties) when I worked on my first Japanese car a first generation Honda Accord. after messing with loads of North American cars I was not looking forward to pulling apart the drive train of a rusty FWD car. But I was pleasantly surprised how simple and accessible it all was to work on, like the engineers had considered how the machine would go together and come apart for repairs. Now I think I value good engineering and good quality as much as anything.

Tesla has come along way in a short time, but for me I think Tesla still has some maturing to do.
https://www.businessinsider.com/elon...e-wreck-2017-6

Elon bought a McLaren F1 as his first "big" purchase after he sold his first company and got millions. He bought the F1 before he even bought a real house.

Yeah, sure he's not a car guy.

It can be pointed out that he eventually wrecked the F1. You don't wreck it by driving it like grandma. Even more proof he's a car guy.
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  #3944  
Old 04-13-2020, 11:55 PM
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https://www.businessinsider.com/elon...e-wreck-2017-6

Elon bought a McLaren F1 as his first "big" purchase after he sold his first company and got millions. He bought the F1 before he even bought a real house.

Yeah, sure he's not a car guy.

It can be pointed out that he eventually wrecked the F1. You don't wreck it by driving it like grandma. Even more proof he's a car guy.
Nope he's not, that was bought for ego and status and wrecked for the same reason(stunting). Show me he spent time repairing or better yet modifying any of his cars or took performance driving lessons or truly raced any of his cars at the track and I'll agree with you.

Lots of people with money buy really nice cars, but they aren't car guys, the cars are status symbols. I still think Musk is one of those.

Last edited by karzrus; 04-14-2020 at 12:17 AM.
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  #3945  
Old 04-14-2020, 06:39 AM
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Nope he's not, that was bought for ego and status and wrecked for the same reason(stunting). Show me he spent time repairing or better yet modifying any of his cars or took performance driving lessons or truly raced any of his cars at the track and I'll agree with you.

Lots of people with money buy really nice cars, but they aren't car guys, the cars are status symbols. I still think Musk is one of those.
Quote:
The very first car Musk owned and liked was a gas car too — a 1978 BMW 320i, for which he paid $1,400 in 1994 and fixed it up himself, according to Forbes.
You were saying?

Just take the L because you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
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  #3946  
Old 04-14-2020, 09:15 AM
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Nope he's not, that was bought for ego and status and wrecked for the same reason(stunting).
Exactly. The sooner Elon Musk heads up to his Mars colony and stays there, the better. Hopefully, he'll be joined by Cher, Elton John, and a legion of Tesla driving Musk acolytes.

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  #3947  
Old 04-14-2020, 11:01 AM
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You were saying?

Just take the L because you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
The full text says this. A car guy would not have let a wheel fell off.

And the McLaren account fit what karzrus mentioned as rich guy buying status symbol.

"The very first car Musk owned and liked was a gas car too - a 1978 BMW 320i, for which he paid $1,400 in 1994 and fixed it up himself, according to Forbes. He had the car for two years and then a wheel fell off when he lent the car to an intern. "I scrapped the car at that point," Musk says.

He's also had a McLaren F1, a sports car he wrecked in 2000 when driving with PayPal co-founder Peter Thiel.

"Peter said, 'So what can this do?' and like probably No. 1 on the list of famous last words, I said, 'Watch this.' So I floored it and did a lane change on Sand Hill," says Musk, referring to the famous Silicon Valley road, during an interview with PandoDaily. "We hit an embankment, like a 45-degree embankment on Sand Hill, which tossed the car into the air like a discus and it kept rotating with about three foot of air clearance.""
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Old 04-14-2020, 02:47 PM
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Funny how the discussion turned out about whether Elon is a car guy. To me that matters exactly zero. His company makes amazing cars nobody can match - is all I care about.

To the guy that says he likes his BMW better than the Tesla - you are clearly the minority. Sure - the Tesla is not nearly as polished as a BMW, but overall it's a much better car. The acceleration is insane, and complaining about Model 3 handling is just hilarious. BMWs may be "planted" but Tesla Model 3 is like glued on the road. You can complain about not having heated steering wheel - I'm with you there but that's like way down compared to the important stuff. I can add to that list - cabin noise sucks (though apparently they improved in 2020), no HUD sucks and so on and so forth. Still blows BMW out of the water, despite that I miss those other things.
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Old 04-14-2020, 07:21 PM
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Good point and might as well get back on track.

I think this comparison is kind of like comparing the top Corvette in any given year past from the mid eighties onward to last year, to the V8 Ferraris of that same year. The Vette out performed the Ferrari but the quality just wasn't there.

Tesla's going to catch up on those other fronts eventually, if or as they focus on some of those things. But some of the other car manufacturers may catch Tesla on its strength first. Porsche might have done it already regarding the S model.
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Old 04-15-2020, 10:50 AM
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I'm impressed with the Taycan. What I like most is that it is a real Porsche. Efficiency (EPA wise) is low but, in true good engineering fashion, it is optimized for what it is. The two speed transmission means it does well at high speeds. EPA ratings are great for ICE cars. However, even a Leaf has plenty of range for most daily uses. Where range matters in an EV is cruising at 80 on an Interstate. I am a Tesla fan but I was happy to see Porsche's effort be a good one. I don't think the Taycan competes directly with the S. There is a large price difference but it is the best comparison one can make. There aren't a lot of similar vehicles out there. Heck, people were comparing the iPace to the X. The iPace is much closer to the Y.
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