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  #4001  
Old 06-28-2020, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave 20T View Post
Some of these last 10 posts confirm my suspicions. There is a learning curve for car design like I originally mentioned somewhat. The 3 being better designed than the earlier S.
And a Model Y is a better design than a Model 3. I'd also say that a 2020 BMW M340i is a better design than a 2010 BMW 335i. In fact, I'd say that most, although not all, car designs get better over time. In addition, I would say that Teslas are the best designed electric cars in the world today by a significant margin.
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  #4002  
Old 06-28-2020, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
And a Model Y is a better design than a Model 3. I'd also say that a 2020 BMW M340i is a better design than a 2010 BMW 335i. In fact, I'd say that most, although not all, car designs get better over time. In addition, I would say that Teslas are the best designed electric cars in the world today by a significant margin.
There is no tear down of Model Y yet, so hopefully there will be real data to show that Tesla makes conscious efforts to improve the chassis design glitches from Model 3, e.g. missing bolts, welds, wheel wells made from 9 pieces instead of one.

"In general, Munro’s firm has found that “everything below the floorpan is amazing, everything above it is (problematic),” he tells media here."

https://www.wardsauto.com/technology...3-construction
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  #4003  
Old 06-28-2020, 08:54 PM
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That's strange because tesla cars were rated some of the safest cars on the road in all the tests that I read. You say there are several cars that beat the model 3. How many are several? Several out of thousands of cars sounds like Tesla is awfully close to the top.
And here is a straightforward illustration of lying Elon

2019 Tesla Impact Report https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2019...act-report.pdf

Page 25

They make people believe Volvo S60 is less safe than the Model 3:




When the reality is this:

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  #4004  
Old 06-28-2020, 09:37 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
And a Model Y is a better design than a Model 3. I'd also say that a 2020 BMW M340i is a better design than a 2010 BMW 335i. In fact, I'd say that most, although not all, car designs get better over time. In addition, I would say that Teslas are the best designed electric cars in the world today by a significant margin.
Audi E-Tron is a better and safer design overall. As is the Taycan.
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  #4005  
Old 06-28-2020, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
There is no tear down of Model Y yet, so hopefully there will be real data to show that Tesla makes conscious efforts to improve the chassis design glitches from Model 3, e.g. missing bolts, welds, wheel wells made from 9 pieces instead of one.

"In general, Munro’s firm has found that “everything below the floorpan is amazing, everything above it is (problematic),” he tells media here."

https://www.wardsauto.com/technology...3-construction
Actually, Sandy Munro's company completed a full tear down of a Model Y over a month ago, and what's really cool is that they did a whole series of videos about it. In short, Sandy really liked it. It's a very interesting series. You should check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...5a5Rp1LlET4Wbr
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  #4006  
Old 06-28-2020, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Audi E-Tron is a better and safer design overall. As is the Taycan.
They're both horribly inefficient compared to a Model 3 or Model Y, and I'd like to see your justification that either of them are a "safer design overall".
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  #4007  
Old 06-28-2020, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
And here is a straightforward illustration of lying Elon

2019 Tesla Impact Report https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2019...act-report.pdf

Page 25

They make people believe Volvo S60 is less safe than the Model 3:




When the reality is this:

I actually find the photos of the two cars much more convincing than the Euro NCAP rating. I would much rather be in the Tesla in the event of a side impact than the Volvo. You are welcome to take your chances with the Volvo.
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  #4008  
Old 06-28-2020, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I actually find the photos of the two cars much more convincing than the Euro NCAP rating. I would much rather be in the Tesla in the event of a side impact than the Volvo. You are welcome to take your chances with the Volvo.
Because you don't understand the physics of the crash or the vehicle's structure. And this is what Elon takes unfair advantage on. There is a reason why the Volvo driver suffers less injuries.

You are the perfect example that Elon's BS marketing works.
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  #4009  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
They're both horribly inefficient compared to a Model 3 or Model Y, and I'd like to see your justification that either of them are a "safer design overall".
Just take a look at the battery design. Much safer. But given your conclusion of the S60, I guess it would be wasted time on your side to check it.

Regarding the consumption, the difference on a roadtrip - where it matters - isn't much. Taycan can beat the Model S at 75mph in consumption. E-Tron can beat the Model X on the highway in rain or in cold weather.
Tesla is good in the city and in perfect weather only.
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  #4010  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Audi E-Tron is a better and safer design overall. As is the Taycan.

Pass, I’m not paying 70k for an electric Q5 when I can get the Model Y for less
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  #4011  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Because you don't understand the physics of the crash or the vehicle's structure. And this is what Elon takes unfair advantage on. There is a reason why the Volvo driver suffers less injuries.

You are the perfect example that Elon's BS marketing works.
Sigh.The Euro NCAP assumes a certain set number of parameters to try and match a theoretical typical accident, the same as any testing organization does. For the particular impact type and speed they chose, I can believe that the Volvo tested out better since there was a lot more deformation of the vehicle, thereby reducing the force of the dummy's body hitting the side of the car. Effectively, the Volvo had more crush space. Having more crush space is a good thing until you run out of it.

The Euro NCAP side impact pole test is done at 20MPH. I think if the cars were tested at a little higher speed, say 30MPH, the results would be dramatically different, with the results being much, much worse for the Volvo. It would completely run out of crush space and the resulting impact on the dummy would be massively harder.

Last edited by GregD; 06-28-2020 at 10:37 PM.
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  #4012  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Just take a look at the battery design. Much safer. But given your conclusion of the S60, I guess it would be wasted time on your side to check it.

Regarding the consumption, the difference on a roadtrip - where it matters - isn't much. Taycan can beat the Model S at 75mph in consumption. E-Tron can beat the Model X on the highway in rain or in cold weather.
Tesla is good in the city and in perfect weather only.
This is why it's not worth trying to have a discussion with you. You always move the goal posts and turn the discussion into a game of whack a mole. Plus we've argued the above points before in this thread and I think I proved that you're wrong, but that doesn't stop you from repeating the nonsense.

Your primary goal here seems to be to bash Teslas, and you spin, twist, slant, and cherry pick in order to do so.
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  #4013  
Old 06-28-2020, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I actually find the photos of the two cars much more convincing than the Euro NCAP rating. I would much rather be in the Tesla in the event of a side impact than the Volvo. You are welcome to take your chances with the Volvo.
The NCAP ratings (and the photos) seem to imply that S60 absorbs lateral impact better than Model 3 and S, and results in less injury to the chest and abdomen than Model 3 and S.
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  #4014  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
The Euro NCAP side impact pole test is done at 20MPH. I think if the cars were tested at a little higher speed, say 30MPH, the results would be dramatically different, with the results being much, much worse for the Volvo. It would completely run out of crush space and the resulting impact on the dummy would be massively harder.
Is there 30mph test of S60 versus Model 3/S?
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  #4015  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:08 PM
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Actually, Sandy Munro's company completed a full tear down of a Model Y over a month ago, and what's really cool is that they did a whole series of videos about it. In short, Sandy really liked it. It's a very interesting series. You should check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...5a5Rp1LlET4Wbr
Very cool, Sandy went right to work. The 2nd video in the series Sandy noted several gap issues that did not earn his approval.

[email protected]:50 of 2nd video, it looks like the RHS A pillar still hangs a bit out while meeting top of fender, so it is a design cue now.
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  #4016  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Very cool, Sandy went right to work. The 2nd video in the series Sandy noted several gap issues that did not earn his approval.

[email protected]:50 of 2nd video, it looks like the RHS A pillar still hangs a bit out while meeting top of fender, so it is a design cue now.
There's a few things he didn't like, and which really were subpar, but if you keep watching, he really liked it overall and was quite impressed by it.
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  #4017  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:42 PM
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Pass, I’m not paying 70k for an electric Q5 when I can get the Model Y for less
Yeah, but that's like choosing Toyota instead of a Lexus. It costs less.
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  #4018  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:52 PM
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Sigh.The Euro NCAP assumes a certain set number of parameters to try and match a theoretical typical accident, the same as any testing organization does. For the particular impact type and speed they chose, I can believe that the Volvo tested out better since there was a lot more deformation of the vehicle, thereby reducing the force of the dummy's body hitting the side of the car. Effectively, the Volvo had more crush space. Having more crush space is a good thing until you run out of it.

The Euro NCAP side impact pole test is done at 20MPH. I think if the cars were tested at a little higher speed, say 30MPH, the results would be dramatically different, with the results being much, much worse for the Volvo. It would completely run out of crush space and the resulting impact on the dummy would be massively harder.
At the test both drivers decelerated from 20mph to 0 and both got squeezed to the left side of the car. There is no more crush zone left in both cars. At higher speeds the deceleration numbers of the drivers get closer to each other and the difference disappears. We are getting closer to numbers where there is less chance of a survival, see curves attached. Volvo's hips may get crushed by the center console, but the body deceleration causes magnitudes more injuries. And the Tesla driver faces higher chance of a battery fire additionally.

Now these tests target the driver exactly. What if the pole hits the rear door? Volvo driver's deceleration decreases compared to the test while Model 3 driver's remains elevated.

What if the pole comes from the right side? Model 3 driver has a higher chance of a broken spine/hips.
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Old 06-28-2020, 11:52 PM
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There's a few things he didn't like, and which really were subpar, but if you keep watching, he really liked it overall and was quite impressed by it.
He also said he never recommended the Model 3 to anyone.
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  #4020  
Old 06-28-2020, 11:55 PM
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This is why it's not worth trying to have a discussion with you. You always move the goal posts and turn the discussion into a game of whack a mole. Plus we've argued the above points before in this thread and I think I proved that you're wrong, but that doesn't stop you from repeating the nonsense.

Your primary goal here seems to be to bash Teslas, and you spin, twist, slant, and cherry pick in order to do so.
I responded to safety and consumption. Didn't move anything.

I bash Teslas in areas where Elon lies about them. I just provide the truth.
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  #4021  
Old 06-29-2020, 09:18 AM
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Second problem is that I am very wary of a touch screen. Heating, AC, radio, lights should all be large manual switches. I fault BMW for having a decent but not great design. I could change my mind about the touch screen problem if I actually try it out on a Tesla. Most likely, I would partly change my mind but still have some reservations.
I'm not in either camp. I love ICE cars, but see nothing wrong with electrics. I couldn't imagine driving a car with horrific fit and finish, when even cheap Korean cars are damn near perfect, but if that's your cup of tea/kombucha, go for it. I would prefer an iPace or Taycan over a Tesla, even an eTron if the styling wasn't bizarro, Maybe even a Mustang Mach-e, which I think looks SO much better than the Type Y or eTron.

But the display screen question is a good one. What happens if the display fails? If your kiddo spills a Big Gulp on it? If it gets whacked when you decide to carry a heavy object in the car,? or if it just plain goes Tango Uniform to spite you?

With so much controlled by the touch screen, is your ride effectively bricked?
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  #4022  
Old 06-29-2020, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
But the display screen question is a good one. What happens if the display fails? If your kiddo spills a Big Gulp on it? If it gets whacked when you decide to carry a heavy object in the car,? or if it just plain goes Tango Uniform to spite you?

With so much controlled by the touch screen, is your ride effectively bricked?
I'm pretty sure that the car will still operate even if the display fails. You can actually do a reset of the screen while the car is being driven, the screen blanks out for about 30 seconds, then it starts rebooting, and after about another 30 seconds it's done except for the cellular internet connection which takes about another minute to come back. The car drives fine while this is occurring.

Last edited by GregD; 06-29-2020 at 09:55 AM.
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  #4023  
Old 06-29-2020, 12:25 PM
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At the test both drivers decelerated from 20mph to 0 and both got squeezed to the left side of the car. There is no more crush zone left in both cars. At higher speeds the deceleration numbers of the drivers get closer to each other and the difference disappears. We are getting closer to numbers where there is less chance of a survival, see curves attached. Volvo's hips may get crushed by the center console, but the body deceleration causes magnitudes more injuries. And the Tesla driver faces higher chance of a battery fire additionally.

Now these tests target the driver exactly. What if the pole hits the rear door? Volvo driver's deceleration decreases compared to the test while Model 3 driver's remains elevated.

What if the pole comes from the right side? Model 3 driver has a higher chance of a broken spine/hips.
Is there any link to g-force/time graphs for right side hit of Model 3? And any link to similar left and right g-force/time graphs of S60 and other cars?

These are quite interesting data, esp. Model 3 driver's head still encounters loads of g-force even with 20-0, let alone 30-0.

In other words, "safest" seems to be an oxymoron when actual impact occurs, right?
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Old 06-29-2020, 01:08 PM
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Is there any link to g-force/time graphs for right side hit of Model 3? And any link to similar left and right g-force/time graphs of S60 and other cars?

These are quite interesting data, esp. Model 3 driver's head still encounters loads of g-force even with 20-0, let alone 30-0.

In other words, "safest" seems to be an oxymoron when actual impact occurs, right?

Yeah, safer means higher chance of survival. 30g can be deadly for the elderly while a teenager can tolerate it.

I don't know anyone who does lateral right side crash tests. It was big news when IIHS started the frontal small right overlap tests.
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  #4025  
Old 06-29-2020, 01:12 PM
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Yeah, safer means higher chance of survival. 30g can be deadly for the elderly while a teenager can tolerate it.

I don't know anyone who does lateral right side crash tests. It was big news when IIHS started the frontal small right overlap tests.
The attached [email protected]#4018 are for Model 3, driver side pole impact, is there a link to the same set of graphs for S60, or F30, or other cars?
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