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Old 04-27-2017, 02:55 PM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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"BMW acknowledges it is no longer Ultimate Driving Machine"

bmw is no longer the ultimate dirving machine

This is a fascinating article. The Mod can decide to move/delete if needed(is it duplicated from other existing thread?), but it would seem to be an interesting subject for the lively F30 audience.

Quote:
As vehicle sales growth gradually cools off, BMW has found itself continuing to lose ground to its competitors - but it wasn't always this way. The company spent years as the luxury brand par excellence before seeing the likes of Jaguar, Tesla, and historic rival Mercedes-Benz begin syphoning off its consumer base.
Quote:
"BMW has lost its leadership in innovation," explained Juergen Pieper, an analyst at Bankhaus Metzler in Frankfurt. "It's not brave enough to get into pioneering projects and do something really new."
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...are-employees/

EDIT: Shoutout to Tim for the pro edits!

Last edited by namelessman; 04-28-2017 at 01:29 AM. Reason: Added details
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Old 04-27-2017, 03:06 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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There's no reason to delete this but I will give my thoughts on the article.

1) The title of the article is sensationalist and doesn't jibe with what BMW is doing with the employees.

2) The article is heavily slanted and again sensationalist. All BMW is doing is getting input from their employees about future technologies. Further, it talks about being in the midst of an electric assault. That is old news and BMW themselves has been heavily invested in electric technology for a number of years. The editorial premise of the article is a false narrative.
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Old 04-27-2017, 03:08 PM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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The thread title is clickbait.
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Old 04-27-2017, 03:20 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
The thread title is clickbait.
Agree. It's up to the OP to change it if he likes but it's not fair or honest IMO.
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Old 04-27-2017, 04:28 PM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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The thread title works just fine.

Last edited by namelessman; 04-28-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 04-28-2017, 03:41 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The thread title works just fine.
It's a lie.
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Old 04-28-2017, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It's a lie.
The thread title is clickbait just like I said... and it accomplished its objective which was to get people to click on it and talk about it.

BMW did not "acknowledge" or say anything like what the title said exactly. One can infer whatever they want to... but my initial statement that the title of THIS thread is clickbait stands.
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Old 04-28-2017, 05:01 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
The thread title is clickbait just like I said... and it accomplished its objective which was to get people to click on it and talk about it.

BMW did not "acknowledge" or say anything like what the title said exactly. One can infer whatever they want to... but my initial statement that the title of THIS thread is clickbait stands.
And the OP changed it to a more accurate title then later changed it back. Curious as to his motives here. Or not as they seem blatant.
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Old 04-27-2017, 04:40 PM
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BMWAG has never used the tag line "The Ultimate Driving Machine". That has been BMWNA's tag line. Not surprisingly it was an American who thought it up; Bob Lutz of GM, during the early 70s when he worked for BMW. BMWAG's tag line has been "Sheer Driving Pleasure" for decades.
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Old 04-27-2017, 04:47 PM
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Where in the article did BMW actually "acknowledge" that it is no longer the "ultimate driving machine"? I don't now, and never have, believed this to be anything other than a clever marketing slogan, but I didn't see where BMW has acknowledged much of anything...
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by VCuomo View Post
Where in the article did BMW actually "acknowledge" that it is no longer the "ultimate driving machine"? I don't now, and never have, believed this to be anything other than a clever marketing slogan, but I didn't see where BMW has acknowledged much of anything...
The article title(which is quoted in the thread title) appears to be the author's extrapolation of the original Bloomberg article. Excerpts from bloomberg piece:

""We're in the midst of an electric assault," the presenter intones as the Tesla Inc. chief's photo pops up. "This must be taken very seriously.""

""It's easy to fall into a closed way of thinking," says Jutta Schwerdtle, a session leader who works in market research. "This helps push people out of that.""

From these statements it appears some BMW staff acknowledged that they were seriously behind competitors. Although that is not a direct acknowledgement of not living up to "Ultimate Driving Machine" tagline, it does seem to imply the UDM tagline is no longer relevant.

Last edited by namelessman; 04-28-2017 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 04-28-2017, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The article title(which is quoted in the thread title) appears to be the author's extrapolation of the original Bloomberg article. Excerpts from bloomberg piece:

""We're in the midst of an electric assault," the presenter intones as the Tesla Inc. chief's photo pops up. "This must be taken very seriously.""

""It's easy to fall into a closed way of thinking," says Jutta Schwerdtle, a session leader who works in market research. "This helps push people out of that.""

From these statements it appears some BMW staff acknowledged that they were seriously behind competitors. Although that is not a direct acknowledgement of not living up to "Ultimate Driving Machine" tagline, it does seem to imply the UDM tagline is no longer relevant.
I know BMW's foray into hydrogen vehicles was years ago and they were technically successful. A primary reason for them to pursue hydrogen was that it retained the internal combustion driving feel. You're using hydrogen instead of gas. Electric cars are a whole new ball game and not for an organization that bills its products as ultimate driving machines, and with the associated IC feel, sound, etc. A real threat to BMW's relatively successful formula.
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Old 04-28-2017, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
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I know BMW's foray into hydrogen vehicles was years ago and they were technically successful. A primary reason for them to pursue hydrogen was that it retained the internal combustion driving feel. You're using hydrogen instead of gas. Electric cars are a whole new ball game and not for an organization that bills its products as ultimate driving machines, and with the associated IC feel, sound, etc. A real threat to BMW's relatively successful formula.
The Hydrogen 7 project was useful as a research effort, but BMW discontinued it after only two years because the bivalent hydrogen-gasoline powertrain had nearly all the disadvantages of traditional gasoline engines, and was also impacted by limited infrastructure for hydrogen fueling.

Cars with fuel cells using hydrogen and oxygen to power electric motors are much more promising by comparison, though once again limited infrastructure for hydrogen fueling is an impediment to widespread adoption.
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Old 04-28-2017, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The article title(which is quoted in the thread title) appears to be the author's extrapolation of the original Bloomberg article. Excerpts from bloomberg piece:

""We're in the midst of an electric assault," the presenter intones as the Tesla Inc. chief's photo pops up. "This must be taken very seriously.""

""It's easy to fall into a closed way of thinking," says Jutta Schwerdtle, a session leader who works in market research. "This helps push people out of that.""

From these statements it appears some BMW staff acknowledged that they were seriously behind competitors. Although that is not a direct acknowledgement of not living up to "Ultimate Driving Machine" tagline, it does seem to imply the UDM tagline is no longer relevant.
I read the Bloomberg article, and I hear 'ya.

BUT - what BMW seems to be saying is that they believe that they are "behind the curve" for electric and/or autonomous vehicles, instead of being ahead of it. This in no way equates to them in some way declaring that they believe they are no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Perhaps a better title would be "BMW acknowledges that they might not be the UDM of the future" because their fear is based on what the future may hold for them if they don't step up their game going forward; it's not based on their thinking about the present-day market. IMHO, of course...
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VCuomo View Post
I read the Bloomberg article, and I hear 'ya.

BUT - what BMW seems to be saying is that they believe that they are "behind the curve" for electric and/or autonomous vehicles, instead of being ahead of it. This in no way equates to them in some way declaring that they believe they are no longer the "Ultimate Driving Machine". Perhaps a better title would be "BMW acknowledges that they might not be the UDM of the future" because their fear is based on what the future may hold for them if they don't step up their game going forward; it's not based on their thinking about the present-day market. IMHO, of course...
Yes "behind the curve" does make sense, esp. for a brand like BMW which prides to be at the forefront of tech, any tech.

Now the acknowledgement of "behind the curve" by itself can as well be BMW's subtle admission of not being UDM, as it is hard to imagine UDM and "behind the curve" are synonymous, right?

And according to the articles, that future is just around the corner, e.g. MB delivering self driving tech by end of this year, and Tesla shipping Model 3 starting sometime this year.

In that context, the thread title probably is right on target, as that really is the sense of urgency, or clear and present danger, permeated by the BMW brass to the BMW staff.

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Old 04-28-2017, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Yes "behind the curve" does make sense, esp. for a brand like BMW which prides to be at the forefront of tech, any tech.

Now the acknowledgement of "behind the curve" by itself can as well be BMW's subtle admission of not being UDM, as it is hard to imagine UDM and "behind the curve" are synonymous, right?

And according to the articles, that future is just around the corner, e.g. MB delivering self driving tech by end of this year, and Tesla shipping Model 3 starting sometime this year.

In that context, the thread title probably is right on target, as that really is the sense of urgency, or clear and present danger, permeated by the BMW brass to the BMW staff.
If you consider tesla "ahead of the curve" in driving experience, yes. I doubt you do though.

Driving experience and "what people want" are different things. BMW is saying that they are behind the curve in producing what millenials (their future customers) want. Nothing about that says they are laking in driving experience.

The public doesnt want "ultimate driving experience", unless someone considered the shift to SUVs an indication that the public wants driving experience over "tech and comfort"?

So, no I dont agree with your thread title or premise, unless you think that a model S drives better (not accelerates quicker, drives better) than a BMW. I think you are in the bay area where teslas are basically almost like toyota camry's so I would imagine you have driven one. I have. Nice car (hate the big A** touch screen though, i much prefer BMWs measured approach to the user experience there). Not that fun a driving experience. It was faster than my 435, monstrous accelleration, but "soulless".

Thats what people want now, though (an appliance, at multiple price levels like cheap cloth couches, cheap leather couches and expensive couches.. all still a couch / appliance for sitting).
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Old 04-27-2017, 05:04 PM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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The referenced Bloomberg article is an interesting read too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-to-electrics
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Old 04-27-2017, 05:24 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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The referenced Bloomberg article is an interesting read too.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...t-to-electrics
That is a much more balanced and coherent article. However if the stockholders are right and BMW does what's best to compete in the future, driving dynamics are not part of the equation. To be fair, the picture drawn in that article applies to all luxury car companies and paints a grim future for the enthusiast.

I guess millennials favor tech over driving pleasure. The trend is towards autonomous cars and safety features like lane assist.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:17 PM
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It's too bad BMW didn't come out with an electric with "BMW driving dynamics" and a sexy, sporty exterior. Instead they introduced the i3 - a horrible looking mediocre performing electric.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:24 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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It's too bad BMW didn't come out with an electric with "BMW driving dynamics" and a sexy, sporty exterior. Instead they introduced the i3 - a horrible looking mediocre performing electric.
The i3 was designed as a city car not a 3 series type car.
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Old 04-27-2017, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
That is a much more balanced and coherent article. However if the stockholders are right and BMW does what's best to compete in the future, driving dynamics are not part of the equation. To be fair, the picture drawn in that article applies to all luxury car companies and paints a grim future for the enthusiast.

I guess millennials favor tech over driving pleasure. The trend is towards autonomous cars and safety features like lane assist.
Is there anything good that millennials favor? Man, I'm getting older and more crotchety by the minute.
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:30 PM
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Personally, I just wish BMW would build their cars to be more reliable like the old NA I6 motors. All this talk I always see about motors popping isn't good.

As for tech, yes they need more of it.. and not just in the 5 and up.. When a $20K car can have collision avoidance that works with blindside detection and what not, why doesn't all BMWs have these features? Sure Park Assist is nice, but I'd much rather have a Driver Assist + that stops the vehicle versus prime the brakes. Oh.. and Dynamic Cruise Control... what's that? Why not just put in Adaptive cruise like Toyota, Subaru and all the other non-luxury brands seem to be doing?
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Old 04-27-2017, 07:56 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by crabu2 View Post
Personally, I just wish BMW would build their cars to be more reliable like the old NA I6 motors. All this talk I always see about motors popping isn't good.

As for tech, yes they need more of it.. and not just in the 5 and up.. When a $20K car can have collision avoidance that works with blindside detection and what not, why doesn't all BMWs have these features? Sure Park Assist is nice, but I'd much rather have a Driver Assist + that stops the vehicle versus prime the brakes. Oh.. and Dynamic Cruise Control... what's that? Why not just put in Adaptive cruise like Toyota, Subaru and all the other non-luxury brands seem to be doing?
Please don't get sucked into talk here that the motors are unreliable. It's all BS with no science behind it. It's basically 2 posters with some sort of agenda.
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:13 PM
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Please don't get sucked into talk here that the motors are unreliable. It's all BS with no science behind it. It's basically 2 posters with some sort of agenda.
You have to remember... I'm new to BMW. I still don't own one, but I have one on order. But I can tell you this.. Most of my friends that use to purchase BMWs don't any longer. They lease because they say the cars are NOT reliable like they were and they don't want to get stuck with large repair bills after the cars are out of warranty.

As for the N20... I've seen multiple posts on different sites about the chains popping and taking out the motor. BMW even has come out with a revised chain. Another thing I remember is the carbon problem when BMW started using DI and BMW's fix was to walnut shell the engine. I'm assuming BMW has re-engineered their motors so they won't need to be walnut shell blasted. But I remember thinking... How did BMW not catch this when they were in the testing phase? How come GM got it right and BMW didn't?
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Old 04-27-2017, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by crabu2 View Post
You have to remember... I'm new to BMW. I still don't own one, but I have one on order. But I can tell you this.. Most of my friends that use to purchase BMWs don't any longer. They lease because they say the cars are NOT reliable like they were and they don't want to get stuck with large repair bills after the cars are out of warranty.

As for the N20... I've seen multiple posts on different sites about the chains popping and taking out the motor. BMW even has come out with a revised chain. Another thing I remember is the carbon problem when BMW started using DI and BMW's fix was to walnut shell the engine. I'm assuming BMW has re-engineered their motors so they won't need to be walnut shell blasted. But I remember thinking... How did BMW not catch this when they were in the testing phase? How come GM got it right and BMW didn't?
What is really disappointing is that something like timing chain is a known possible point of failure. The science behind sturdy timing chain and durable chain guides(plastic or otherwise) is well known, given BMW has been using similar setups for many generations of engines, why is it difficult to make timing chain right in the first try, and last 200k-300k miles for early N20/N26?

My fear is that BMW forgets/ignores durable and reliable engine design, because their customers mostly lease BMW's and do not need to worry about reliability, availability, and serviceability past 50k to 65k ....
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