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Old 06-14-2017, 11:48 AM
d2va d2va is offline
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12 X5 35d - SCR / NOX .... my current nightmare ?

So! I posted a thread in the diesel subforum

Please read here: https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...8#post10193148

So, my vehicle has been at BMW since last 06/06 (Tuesday), they did the two recalls, and they told me that NOx sensor needed to be replaced. I gave them the go ahead.

On 06/09 (Friday), they did the test drives and the first test drive did not come back good, so they had to re-calibrate the sensor. The 2nd test drive came back good and the 3rd test drive check engine / codes came up. So, they told me that on 06/12 ( Monday) they are going to remotely from Germany.

So, I guess errors were still coming up on Monday, and then Tuesday... Today I spoke with a Service Manager who told me that false SCR codes of it being to full are coming up. They have a BMW engineer there working on another car, so they are having him look at mine. He explained that they are going to do an irep session, and that will hopefully fix it.

I told both the SA and the SM that the scr is under warranty and it could be just that, but the SM said that its not the tank.

He said its very strange, and this has never happened before.

le sigh, I really miss my car, and I think me having a ford taurus loaner is not making it any better.
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Old 06-14-2017, 11:51 AM
Kostyan Kostyan is offline
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how many miles on your X5, do you have wtty coverage for this?

And why did you accept a Ford loaner from BMW dealership, what kind of service is that.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:05 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by d2va View Post
false SCR codes of it being to full are coming up.
Say what?!?

Sounds like you are hearing wrong or he is speaking wrong...

They are going to want to cover up anything they did, that you will pay for that really wasnt necessary...so lets say they got the OK to pay for NOX, and it turns out the SCR cat was bad and was the root cause of their decsion that the nox sensors needed replacing. The cat may be covered under warranty, but they will claim 'oh, nox was bad too'. Just a possibility

"SCR" isnt a thing. It is part of a name:
SCR catalytic converter
SCR fluid
SCR fluid tank
SCR injection nozzle
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:17 PM
d2va d2va is offline
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Originally Posted by Kostyan View Post
how many miles on your X5, do you have wtty coverage for this?

And why did you accept a Ford loaner from BMW dealership, what kind of service is that.
Under 70k, no warranty.

I accepted the Ford loaner because they said they were all out of bmw loaners and they have enterprise on site. I also thought this would not be a two week job, and I also didnt want to seem like a spoiled brat.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:20 PM
d2va d2va is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
Say what?!?

Sounds like you are hearing wrong or he is speaking wrong...

They are going to want to cover up anything they did, that you will pay for that really wasnt necessary...so lets say they got the OK to pay for NOX, and it turns out the SCR cat was bad and was the root cause of their decsion that the nox sensors needed replacing. The cat may be covered under warranty, but they will claim 'oh, nox was bad too'. Just a possibility

"SCR" isnt a thing. It is part of a name:
SCR catalytic converter
SCR fluid
SCR fluid tank
SCR injection nozzle

I heard him say, false codes. With my own ears! I may have misheard/ misunderstood if he was saying that it was too full, or if it was the incorrect one.

The last error message that I had in the car was " incorrect scr fluid - 150 miles until no start"

They already got me for the nox, but it seems like they replaced the nox and are still having these scr codes.
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:21 PM
d2va d2va is offline
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I wonder if they replaced my nox sensor for no reason now... and the problem was with the scr system the whole time? How would I even go about telling them that?
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Old 06-14-2017, 12:51 PM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
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Was the Test Plan run for the initial DTC error?

I'll bet not, and the "BMW engineer" is the expert system in the box, the computer, and they are covering their tracks.
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:13 PM
d2va d2va is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Was the Test Plan run for the initial DTC error?

I'll bet not, and the "BMW engineer" is the expert system in the box, the computer, and they are covering their tracks.
How would I call them out on this though? I am not there, nor do I really have all the extensive knowledge. I got them down to 1k to replace my nox sensor, and now they are still having the same problems that it had since the beginning. I feel like calling the SM and telling him that my nox was probably not even bad!
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Old 06-14-2017, 01:37 PM
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The SM is milking his cash cow for all that you are worth. He is not your friend!
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Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:10 PM
Badsmerf Badsmerf is offline
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Originally Posted by d2va View Post
Under 70k, no warranty.

I accepted the Ford loaner because they said they were all out of bmw loaners and they have enterprise on site. I also thought this would not be a two week job, and I also didnt want to seem like a spoiled brat.
Under 70k all emissions related items are covered. They know this. Don't let them make you pay for the Nox sensor either.
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Old 06-14-2017, 02:24 PM
d2va d2va is offline
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Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
Under 70k all emissions related items are covered. They know this. Don't let them make you pay for the Nox sensor either.
They have not mentioned anything about charging me for anything aside for the Nox, but I did call the SM and left a message for him so I can discuss the nox sensor repair. Whos to say now that the error was the nox when the whole time it was showing exhaust errors?
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Old 06-14-2017, 04:20 PM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
Under 70k all emissions related items are covered. They know this. Don't let them make you pay for the Nox sensor either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by d2va View Post
They have not mentioned anything about charging me for anything aside for the Nox, but I did call the SM and left a message for him so I can discuss the nox sensor repair. Whos to say now that the error was the nox when the whole time it was showing exhaust errors?
No, the 7Y/70K California emissions warranty is not valid in FL or IA.

The SCR Catalyst is covered by the Federal Emissions warranty to 8/80k. But the NOx sensors are not, nor is the metering valve (SCR injector) or the DEF tank and lines. The DDE (ECU) is covered, and it's a possibility in this case (since "false" codes are being thrown).

As Doug says: you need someone who really knows the system. It's past time to have the service manager file for a PUMA case to get someone in that can help.
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Old 06-14-2017, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
Under 70k all emissions related items are covered. They know this. Don't let them make you pay for the Nox sensor either.
I just love when people are adamantly confused about emissions warranties....

OP- 'false codes' I believe. but the 'false SCR codes of it being to full' is throwing me. to or too?

'SCR codes' arent a thing, as I explained.


And here, grasshopper, is where you come to understand the world is filled with hungry grasshopper-eating birds....they control all the information- they've just blathered to you with nonsense, and you didnt record it, nor write it down, nor understand it enough to question it. You have no idea if they've been telling you facts, stories, lies, or a mixture. You cannot even evauate the information they dont lie about...

One idea: Tell them you want the old parts they replaced. If they dont have them, perhaps refuse to pay for the repair (check, in some states they are required to ive you these or you waive this). This only applies to paid work, not warranty.

Best approach is to be persistent, and demand everything in writing on the work order: codes, test plans, results, why they are doing what they are doing. You may get lucky- some BMW corp tech/engineerss may- if they find an ugly, messy emissions problem, might authorize more than the dealer or a warranty desk would
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:16 AM
d2va d2va is offline
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@ard thank you! I am learning, Im a car girl, but dont really know too much about the guts! Im trying my best here!!

I spoke with the SM this morning and he told me that they opened whats called a "PUMA" case. The engineer looked at my car yesterday, and the SM said that he saw something with the other nox sensor so he wanted to make sure that everything was good before they do an irap session... So, they changed that free of charge. They are also changing the catalytic converter as well, which is under the warranty.

When I get the call to get the car, I will make sure to have them have all the details, codes, and repairs on the RO.
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Old 06-15-2017, 07:55 AM
Dash Riprock Dash Riprock is offline
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D2VA thank for the post. This is sounding all too familiar to me. Check engine light came on 4 days ago for me and I took it to my INDY, I don't know the fault code but he told me had something to do with the heater for the DEF fluid. He cleared the code to see what would happen, I drove it home with no issues but when I restarted it the check engine light came back on. I am in the process of setting up an appointment for him to fix it, before I send it to BMW to have the Driveshaft replaced in one week. I don't want BMW to get ahold of this issue and relieve me of several thousand dollars.

Please keep me posted on what the true fix is.

Thanks.
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Old 06-15-2017, 10:58 AM
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serge1 serge1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
nor is the metering valve (SCR injector) or the DEF tank and lines.
metering valve and DEF Active tank seem to be covered.

http://www.bmw-rp.com/production/isg...nsf/submit.xsp
Quote:
B ELW 2015 Front Propeller (Drive) Shaft
ELW SCR Supply Module
BMW ELW Footwell Module
BMW SCR Active Tank
But, for hassle-free replacement, these require a specific code. Last week, this code popped up for me:
Quote:
4C7C "DDE: Reducing-agent metering valve, activation"
The technician would follow test plan and do this (copying straight from Rheingold):
Quote:
Action in service
1. Check line and plug connections
2. If lines and plug connections are OK:
Replace the SCR metering module.
If there's no specific code for metering valve, the technician may still be able to convince BMW that it is at fault and to pay. But that requires them going extra mile - who does that these days?
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:15 AM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Originally Posted by serge1 View Post
metering valve and DEF Active tank seem to be covered.

http://www.bmw-rp.com/production/isg...nsf/submit.xsp
We're talking about two different things: in my post I'm referring to what is covered by the Federal 8/80K "specific emissions-control devices". You're referring to the SIB.
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Old 06-15-2017, 11:38 AM
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serge1 serge1 is offline
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
We're talking about two different things: in my post I'm referring to what is covered by the Federal 8/80K "specific emissions-control devices". You're referring to the SIB.
I think I meant "covered elsewhere", in this case SIB.
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Old 06-15-2017, 12:10 PM
Badsmerf Badsmerf is offline
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
No, the 7Y/70K California emissions warranty is not valid in FL or IA.

The SCR Catalyst is covered by the Federal Emissions warranty to 8/80k. But the NOx sensors are not, nor is the metering valve (SCR injector) or the DEF tank and lines. The DDE (ECU) is covered, and it's a possibility in this case (since "false" codes are being thrown).

As Doug says: you need someone who really knows the system. It's past time to have the service manager file for a PUMA case to get someone in that can help.
California extended it to 80K, Federal is 70k. Some items, like the SCR injector, are actually further. Where did you get this information from? I just had to have my SCR catalyst replaced, so I researched pretty thoroughly before. The dealer did mine, but that was before I had ISTA+ up and running. And they wouldn't give me the part after. SM gave me a BS excuse about it having a core. I should have pushed harder since it is worth some good money even if it is not operational.
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:23 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
California extended it to 80K, Federal is 70k. Some items, like the SCR injector, are actually further. Where did you get this information from? I just had to have my SCR catalyst replaced, so I researched pretty thoroughly before. The dealer did mine, but that was before I had ISTA+ up and running. And they wouldn't give me the part after. SM gave me a BS excuse about it having a core. I should have pushed harder since it is worth some good money even if it is not operational.
You are utterly wrong about the emissions warranty, in many different ways... Posting this is a disservice to member, time for you to read up.. So:

1. Calif is 7/70, federal is 8/80

2. The California warranty covers SOME parts- NOT THE 'ENTIRE SYSTEM'. There are quite a few parts specified. This is in the mainteance and warranty booklet, in every car and available on Google. ANd posted here ad nauseum.

3. If a state is not under California warranty, there is ONLY the federal coverage...and that federal is very few parts...however the SCR cat is one of them. (DDE or 'OBD computer' is anther one)

4. You are also incorrect about getting the part back- the person paying for the repair gets the part
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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Old 06-15-2017, 01:30 PM
Badsmerf Badsmerf is offline
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My apologies about that. My understanding is the California warranty extends to more parts, and longer for certain parts. This warranty is in addition to the Federal, not either/or. In my case, I didn't feel like fighting for the part.
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Old 06-15-2017, 02:33 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by Badsmerf View Post
My apologies about that. My understanding is the California warranty extends to more parts, and longer for certain parts. This warranty is in addition to the Federal, not either/or. In my case, I didn't feel like fighting for the part.
Not to harp on it, but the CA warranty has one single list of parts that are covered, and this is in the manual.

BMW **also** has a nationwide extended warranty on some parts.

I am unaware of any 'CA specific' parts that fall under some longer term.












Also, for the OP's info...see this:
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...highlight=4d16

seems that the go to fix for puma is 'new nox, new SCR cat'..perhaps?
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #23  
Old 06-15-2017, 03:38 PM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Just so everyone knows (many 2nd owners never get or print out the Warranty & Service manual), here are the pages that detail California and the Federal 8/80K Specific Control Devices.

Please note that these pages are from my 2010 booklet: I understand that BMW replaced the list of California items with a blanket "call BMW to see if a repair is covered" later in the 335d/X5d manuals (I believe that 2011 cars have that wording.) Also, note on the first page of this PDF the states that are the valid California states - outside those and you're on your own (IMO, the non-CA states have made a big mistake in not joining: think of the cycles and $$$ we've spent worrying about the SCR system.)

335d 3 pages warranty.pdf

As mentioned, BMW's SIB (01 23 16) detailing the extension of the DEF tank to 10Y/120K is entirely separate from the original warranty.

Last edited by floydarogers; 06-15-2017 at 03:42 PM. Reason: add note regarding states, and opinion
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Old 07-03-2017, 07:59 AM
d2va d2va is offline
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Hello everyone! Im sure everyone knows that the NOx is now under warranty! BUT aside from that I wanted to share the invoice with all the deetz on the repairs that were done on my car!















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Old 07-03-2017, 09:19 AM
ard ard is offline
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All too familiar....

Assuming you did not actually pay that $4k+?

Personally I would NOT post the names of the individuals at the dealership- your SA and the tech. You blanked your name, why not offer them the same courtesy? Just my opinion...

One tidbit from that repair order is that if you drive to 0 miles, you can run a test plan that gives you another 50 miles.... not sure if I saw that before.
__________________
Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM

Last edited by ard; 07-03-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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