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  #3901  
Old 03-15-2020, 05:30 PM
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EVs are safer in a pandemic. Just plug them in at home and you can still get around. Other cars require you to go to a station to fuel up where other, possibly infected, people have been using the refueling equipment.

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  #3902  
Old 03-15-2020, 06:23 PM
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"Lots of recent EVs match the consumption of Teslas"? Can you please cite the cars in a similar class that match the Teslas, or even come close on a watt hour per mile basis? For that matter, can you cite the EVs of any class that can match a Tesla Model 3? A couple of the Hyundais are the closest, but I wouldn't say that they are a comparable class of car and they're still not quite as efficient as the Teslas. All of the EVs from BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, and Porsche are much, much less efficient.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp

I don't think anyone has a big edge when it comes to battery chemistry, and that includes Tesla, Tesla's advantages are in their battery packaging and management, and their extremely efficient components and designs.
Here for example: constant 75mph test, https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...s-performance/
Taycan Turbo S; 209mi
Model S Perf; 222mi
After compensating for the difference in batteries for the Taycan: 92/84*209 = 229mi

Taycan is more efficient at 75mi even though it has wider tires.
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Old 03-15-2020, 06:29 PM
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Tesla's consumption is low in ok weather only.
One guy who has an X and an E-Tron took both cars at the same time to Tahoe in the winter. They both had the same consumption.



And here, Model 3 barely goes farther even though it has much skinnier tire and smaller frontal area

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Old 03-15-2020, 06:33 PM
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And yes, Hyundai Kona and Kia eNiro 64kWh is in the same league regarding consumption as the lightest Model 3 SR
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Old 03-15-2020, 06:34 PM
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Tesla's advantages are in their battery packaging and management
Again. 80kWh is 80kWh. Battery management can't make it 82kWh.
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  #3906  
Old 03-15-2020, 06:34 PM
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EVs are safer in a pandemic. Just plug them in at home and you can still get around. Other cars require you to go to a station to fuel up where other, possibly infected, people have been using the refueling equipment.
Just went [email protected], only 8 of 24 gas pumps were occupied.

A useful routine is to use hand sanitizer after getting back to car.
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  #3907  
Old 03-16-2020, 10:07 AM
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Recent post from Porsche forum:

"However I do not see big difference in the amount my Taycan and my Tesla Model S recuperate in terms of usable range, assuming if the Tesla is better because it recuperates at all times, it should drive longer - but it doesn't. I drive the Tesla in basically one pedal mode with the highest amount of recuperation, and the maximum it does is 50kw (based on the graphic on the display). The Taycan on the other hand coasts - which is something unique to the EV world if you ask me, and makes it much more like an ICE car in driving too, with the main difference being the Taycan does not slow down at all when coasting compared to an ICE car which actually slows down quite a bit more. However, when you step on the brakes, it recuperates up to 275kw - or 5.5 times what the Tesla does and honestly, in my driving style I dont't see any real life difference in the amount of energy both cars consume. It's around 27.2kw for the Tesla over 8000km and it's 27.1 for the Taycan for 400km. "
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  #3908  
Old 03-16-2020, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Recent post from Porsche forum:

"However I do not see big difference in the amount my Taycan and my Tesla Model S recuperate in terms of usable range, assuming if the Tesla is better because it recuperates at all times, it should drive longer - but it doesn't. I drive the Tesla in basically one pedal mode with the highest amount of recuperation, and the maximum it does is 50kw (based on the graphic on the display). The Taycan on the other hand coasts - which is something unique to the EV world if you ask me, and makes it much more like an ICE car in driving too, with the main difference being the Taycan does not slow down at all when coasting compared to an ICE car which actually slows down quite a bit more. However, when you step on the brakes, it recuperates up to 275kw - or 5.5 times what the Tesla does and honestly, in my driving style I dont't see any real life difference in the amount of energy both cars consume. It's around 27.2kw for the Tesla over 8000km and it's 27.1 for the Taycan for 400km. "
Assuming the 27.1 is kw, that would seem to indicate that the Tesla is 20 times more efficient than the Taycan, obviously not real. I wonder what else is wrong with whatever the guy posted.
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  #3909  
Old 03-16-2020, 12:41 PM
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Assuming the 27.1 is kw, that would seem to indicate that the Tesla is 20 times more efficient than the Taycan, obviously not real. I wonder what else is wrong with whatever the guy posted.
It's Europe. 27.1kWh/100km
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  #3910  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
It's Europe. 27.1kWh/100km
The quote you provided regarding Taycan vs. Model S is pretty useless for determining if the numbers in it mean anything at all. It is totally anecdotal, and being on a Porsche forum, it certainly wouldn't be surprising if the post was very slanted. There are far too many variables that can be introduced to achieve just about any results you want.

At least the EPA has a set of standards that have to be met, so the results should be fairly consistent for comparison purposes. Here is what the EPA shows for kWh per 100 miles for a selection of AWD luxury class EVs.

Porsche Taycan 49kWh
Audi Etron 46kWh
Jaguar iPace 44kWh
Tesla Model X Long Range 35kWh
Tesla Model S Long Range 30kWh
Tesla Model Y Performance 28kWh
Tesla Model 3 Long Range 26kWh

Last edited by GregD; 03-16-2020 at 01:25 PM.
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  #3911  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:27 PM
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Again. 80kWh is 80kWh. Battery management can't make it 82kWh.
Good battery management allows Tesla to use a smaller buffer while protecting the battery resulting in more range for a particular size battery.
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  #3912  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregD View Post
The quote you provided regarding Taycan vs. Model S is pretty useless for determining if the numbers in it mean anything at all. It is totally anecdotal, and being on a Porsche forum, it certainly wouldn't be surprising if the post was very slanted. There are far too many variables that can be introduced to achieve just about any results you want.

At least the EPA has a set of standards that have to be met, so the results should be fairly consistent for comparison purposes. Here is what the EPA shows for kWh per 100 miles for a selection of AWD luxury class EVs.

Porsche Taycan 49kWh
Audi Etron 46kWh
Jaguar iPace 44kWh
Tesla Model X Long Range 35kWh
Tesla Model S Long Range 30kWh
Tesla Model Y Performance 28kWh
Tesla Model 3 Long Range 26kWh

Based on independent tests I showed you you can figure it out by now that EPA is useless.

It can be tricked by setting the standard regen high for example. Tesla also uses overpressurized 41-45psi ECO tires. Additionally EPA results are reported by the manufacturers. Tesla is reporting such high range on dyno that no Tesla owner has ever reached in real life.
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  #3913  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:33 PM
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Good battery management allows Tesla to use a smaller buffer while protecting the battery resulting in more range for a particular size battery.
Nope. Top buffer size is based on how much risk and degradation the car maker is ok with. Tesla does not recommend to charge the batteries to 100%. But they give you the opportunity. That's all.
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  #3914  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:46 PM
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Based on independent tests I showed you you can figure it out by now that EPA is useless.

It can be tricked by setting the standard regen high for example. Tesla also uses overpressurized 41-45psi ECO tires. Additionally EPA results are reported by the manufacturers. Tesla is reporting such high range on dyno that no Tesla owner has ever reached in real life.
Tesla's standard mode is kind of a medium regen that automatically adjusts based on speed. The 41-45PSI ECO tires are the tires that Tesla provides and the pressures that it recommends and are the same tires that get used in regular tests of the cars. For EPA testing, don't you think a car should be tested in the configuration that the manufacturer delivers to the customer and which it recommends?

My LR AWD Model 3 is rated for 310 miles of range. On a warm day and keeping speeds to 65MPH or less on level ground, I have seen a rate of power usage which would work out to 310 miles or more on a number of occasions. I've never driven it more than 290 miles without recharging since I don't want to take a chance of running out of electricity and always leave a buffer. On the day when I drove it 290 miles, it showed I had another 50 miles of range left, but I had dropped 5,000 feet of altitude on the drive, it was a nice day, and speeds were mostly under 65.

Consumer Reports in their test of the Model 3 exceeded the rated range. Do you think that their results are bogus? There have been a number of Youtube videos over the years where Tesla owners have exceeded the rated range on their cars as well. Do you think they're all lying?
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  #3915  
Old 03-16-2020, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Nope. Top buffer size is based on how much risk and degradation the car maker is ok with. Tesla does not recommend to charge the batteries to 100%. But they give you the opportunity. That's all.
My understanding is that all Tesla batteries have a high end buffer even when the car shows 100% charge, but that it is generally less than most other EV manufacturers. Tesla's experience, battery module design, and battery management system allows them to do this while still having good battery durability.

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  #3916  
Old 03-16-2020, 02:00 PM
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Tesla's standard mode is kind of a medium regen that automatically adjusts based on speed. The 41-45PSI ECO tires are the tires that Tesla provides and the pressures that it recommends and are the same tires that get used in regular tests of the cars. For EPA testing, don't you think a car should be tested in the configuration that the manufacturer delivers to the customer and which it recommends?

My LR AWD Model 3 is rated for 310 miles of range. On a warm day and keeping speeds to 65MPH or less on level ground, I have seen a rate of power usage which would work out to 310 miles or more on a number of occasions. I've never driven it more than 290 miles without recharging since I don't want to take a chance of running out of electricity and always leave a buffer. On the day when I drove it 290 miles, it showed I had another 50 miles of range left, but I had dropped 5,000 feet of altitude on the drive, it was a nice day, and speeds were mostly under 65.

Consumer Reports in their test of the Model 3 exceeded the rated range. Do you think that their results are bogus? There have been a number of Youtube videos over the years where Tesla owners have exceeded the rated range on their cars as well. Do you think they're all lying?

Ok, Now sit down a bit bc you won't believe it. Here are the numbers Tesla reached on the dyno

distance reached on the dyno in EPA test HWY cycle:
LongRangeAWD 441.68mi
LongRangeAWDPerformance(18"Wheels) 454.20mi
LongRangeAWDPerformance(19"Wheels) 403.97mi
LongRangeAWDPerformance(20"Wheels) 390.81mi


EPA rated range is calculated by multiplying the average of this range and the city range by 0.7, hence the ~310mi rated range.


Have you ever seen a single person reaching these distances at these speeds?

Hyundai Kona, Porsche Taycan have no problem reaching their dyno results in real driving.



Here is the EPA hwy cycle:





As for the tires: Since Tesla uses inflated ECO tires on their cars, you can't compare consumption numbers 1:1 to other cars. These ECO tires are pretty slippery in rain. Tesla doesn't care about your safety. All they care about marketing. Claiming they have the longest EPA range.
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  #3917  
Old 03-16-2020, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Ok, Now sit down a bit bc you won't believe it. Here are the numbers Tesla reached on the dyno

distance reached on the dyno in EPA test HWY cycle:
LongRangeAWD 441.68mi
LongRangeAWDPerformance(18"Wheels) 454.20mi
LongRangeAWDPerformance(19"Wheels) 403.97mi
LongRangeAWDPerformance(20"Wheels) 390.81mi


EPA rated range is calculated by multiplying the average of this range and the city range by 0.7, hence the ~310mi rated range.


Have you ever seen a single person reaching these distances at these speeds?

Hyundai Kona, Porsche Taycan have no problem reaching their dyno results in real driving.



Here is the EPA hwy cycle:


I've heard that the Taycan may be a little overly conservatively rated, which is good since its official EPA rating is so abysmally poor, but I haven't heard that about any of the other electric cars out there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
As for the tires: Since Tesla uses inflated ECO tires on their cars, you can't compare consumption numbers 1:1 to other cars. These ECO tires are pretty slippery in rain. Tesla doesn't care about your safety. All they care about marketing. Claiming they have the longest EPA range.
Actually, the tires Tesla uses on their cars really aren't ECO specials and they're not slippery in the rain; they're mostly good quality Grand Touring All Season tires with the exception of the performance models which usually have a serious high performance tire like Michelin Pilot PS4s. For instance, the tires that came on my Model 3 AWD, non-performance are Michelin Primacy MXM4s. They're probably at their best in the rain and they're pretty good in the dry, although well below something like a PS4s. Where they're actually at their worst is in snow and ice although they're fine in dry and cold conditions. In any case, the tires that Tesla uses for EPA tests are the same ones their cars are tested with by all the groups that test cars out there the same as most other cars. They are certainly not dangerous as you claim.

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  #3918  
Old 03-16-2020, 03:11 PM
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I've heard that the Taycan may be a little overly conservatively rated, which is good since its official EPA rating is so abysmally poor, but I haven't heard that about any of the other electric cars out there.


Actually, the tires Tesla uses on their cars really aren't ECO specials and they're not slippery in the rain; they're mostly good quality Grand Touring All Season tires with the exception of the performance models which usually have a serious high performance tire like Michelin Pilot PS4s. For instance, the tires that came on my Model 3 AWD, non-performance are Michelin Primacy MXM4s. They're probably at their best in the rain and they're pretty good in the dry, although well below something like a PS4s. Where they're actually at their worst is in snow and ice although they're fine in dry and cold conditions. In any case, the tires that Tesla uses for EPA tests are the same ones their cars are tested with by all the groups that test cars out there the same as most other cars. They are certainly not dangerous as you claim.


Lots of owners disagree with you about the MXM4s' performance in rain, just read the comments: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...-fault.186794/

Insideevs reported several "hydroplanings":
https://insideevs.com/news/393218/vi...model-3-crash/
https://insideevs.com/news/385183/vi...roplane-crash/




Hyundai Kona well over its EPA range and the trip includes vampire current plus multiple trips (which means additional HVAC use) : https://insideevs.com/reviews/404013...-miles-charge/
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Old 03-16-2020, 03:14 PM
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Old 03-16-2020, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Lots of owners disagree with you about the MXM4s' performance in rain, just read the comments: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...-fault.186794/

Insideevs reported several "hydroplanings":
https://insideevs.com/news/393218/vi...model-3-crash/
https://insideevs.com/news/385183/vi...roplane-crash/




Hyundai Kona well over its EPA range and the trip includes vampire current plus multiple trips (which means additional HVAC use) : https://insideevs.com/reviews/404013...-miles-charge/
Again, you're going with anecdotal info. In the right circumstances, any tire will hydroplane and any EV can get over its rated mileage given the right circumstances. Like you, I could find anecdotal information showing just about anything I want, but that doesn't make it right or meaningful.

Tirerack's ratings show the Michelin Primacy MXM4 as roughly in the middle of the Grand Touring All-Season category with its wet performance somewhat above the middle of the range. At least this is an average of a whole bunch of anecdotal opinions.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surve...&type=GTAS&VT=

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Old 03-16-2020, 03:40 PM
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I've driven a Model 3 with the 19s, and it doesn't surprise me that they handle and stop a little bit better in the dry than the 18s. I've heard they're pretty good in the wet but not so good in the snow and ice, but that is again anecdotal. In any case, a set of PS4s tires will just kill them in the dry.


In any case, your contention that "Tesla uses inflated ECO tires on their cars, you can't compare consumption numbers 1:1 to other cars. These ECO tires are pretty slippery in rain. Tesla doesn't care about your safety. All they care about marketing." is obviously false.

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Old 03-16-2020, 03:46 PM
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Again, you're going with anecdotal info. In the right circumstances, any tire will hydroplane and any EV can get over its rated mileage given the right circumstances. Like you, I could find anecdotal information showing just about anything I want, but that doesn't make it right or meaningful.

Tirerack's ratings show the Michelin Primacy MXM4 as roughly in the middle of the Grand Touring All-Season category with its wet performance somewhat above the middle of the range. At least this is an average of a whole bunch of anecdotal opinions.
https://www.tirerack.com/tires/surve...&type=GTAS&VT=
Note that none of the other cars hydroplaned in that section.

You also ignored how many owners blame these tires on TMC in that thread

Additionally tirerack uses correct tire pressures
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Old 03-16-2020, 03:48 PM
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Tesla's standard mode is kind of a medium regen that automatically adjusts based on speed. The 41-45PSI ECO tires are the tires that Tesla provides and the pressures that it recommends and are the same tires that get used in regular tests of the cars. For EPA testing, don't you think a car should be tested in the configuration that the manufacturer delivers to the customer and which it recommends?

My LR AWD Model 3 is rated for 310 miles of range. On a warm day and keeping speeds to 65MPH or less on level ground, I have seen a rate of power usage which would work out to 310 miles or more on a number of occasions. I've never driven it more than 290 miles without recharging since I don't want to take a chance of running out of electricity and always leave a buffer. On the day when I drove it 290 miles, it showed I had another 50 miles of range left, but I had dropped 5,000 feet of altitude on the drive, it was a nice day, and speeds were mostly under 65.

Consumer Reports in their test of the Model 3 exceeded the rated range. Do you think that their results are bogus? There have been a number of Youtube videos over the years where Tesla owners have exceeded the rated range on their cars as well. Do you think they're all lying?
I want to add here that consumer reports reached 350mi with default regen setting and 310mi with weak regen setting.
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Old 03-16-2020, 03:58 PM
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I want to add here that consumer reports reached 350mi with default regen setting and 310mi with weak regen setting.
Default being the key term there. Default manufacturer settings are what are used by most organizations, including the EPA, when testing a vehicle. The default setting is called "Standard"; the weak regen setting is called "Low", and Tesla specifically recommends it for use in snow or icy conditions. I don't think too many owners switch into Low for any other reason.
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Old 03-16-2020, 04:00 PM
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Note that none of the other cars hydroplaned in that section.

You also ignored how many owners blame these tires on TMC in that thread

Additionally tirerack uses correct tire pressures
I've proven you to be factually incorrect when you stated, "Tesla uses inflated ECO tires on their cars, you can't compare consumption numbers 1:1 to other cars. These ECO tires are pretty slippery in rain. Tesla doesn't care about your safety. All they care about marketing." If you want to keep beating that dead horse, have fun, but I'm done.
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