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  #3626  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
Let's take an average Model 3 owner who normally charges at home, but decides to take a 3,000 mile road trip. The extra $6 is for only 160 miles. For the entire trip, the extra cost would have been at least 3000/160*6 or $112.50.
Taking a step back, my lowly 3-series can do 600+ miles per tank 16 gallons, so 5 refuels to stretch to 3000 miles, for 3-4 minutes per stop. @$4 is $320, and 20 minutes.

In comparison, Model 3/EV needs 18 [email protected] minutes each, costing $158 and 360 minutes.

Hmm, it may be worth $180 to some to save 320 minutes(5+ hours!), yes/no?
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  #3627  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:07 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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How are you getting 600+ miles per tank in your F30? I can't recall which model you have. Diesel? My 328i occasionally achieved an indicated 35 mpg on highway trips. Far more often more like 29 mpg in mixed driving. That's a range of 450 to 560 miles.
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  #3628  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:38 PM
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How are you getting 600+ miles per tank in your F30? I can't recall which model you have. Diesel? My 328i occasionally achieved an indicated 35 mpg on highway trips. Far more often more like 29 mpg in mixed driving. That's a range of 450 to 560 miles.
It is a 2013 328i N26. A frequent round trip of ours is 76.3 miles 1-way, or 152.6 miles RT with 4 gallons(start and end at gas pump). That is 38.15mpg, and iDrive usually shows 440-450 miles remaining range, so a little over 600 miles.

To be scientific, this page says fuel tank is 60L, or 15.85 US gallons, so 38.15mpg * 15.85G = 604.7 miles of range.

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...edan-328i.html
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  #3629  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
It is a 2013 328i N26. A frequent round trip of ours is 76.3 miles 1-way, or 152.6 miles RT with 4 gallons(start and end at gas pump). That is 38.15mpg, and iDrive usually shows 440-450 miles remaining range, so a little over 600 miles.

To be scientific, this page says fuel tank is 60L, or 15.85 US gallons, so 38.15mpg * 15.85G = 604.7 miles of range.

https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-sp...edan-328i.html
Apply the same bit of absurdity regarding range with the Model 3, which has a 310 mile range, and you're down to 8 stops for 3,000 miles. I was trying to be realistic, but if you don't want to you really shouldn't be making the comparisons you're making as if they're apples to apples when they're not. That's just deceptive and misleading.
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  #3630  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
Apply the same bit of absurdity regarding range with the Model 3, which has a 310 mile range, and you're down to 8 stops for 3,000 miles. I was trying to be realistic, but if you don't want to you really shouldn't be making the comparisons you're making as if they're apples to apples when they're not. That's just deceptive and misleading.
Good question, your case study is on Model 3 charged up every 160 miles, what is rationale to pick 160 miles then? Is that meant to confuse and mislead other festers?

In your post#3615:

"Let's say you want to add about 160 miles of range on a Tesla Model 3 that is down to 15% charge"

So is 160 miles from 100% down to 15%, so 85% for 160 miles? For 188 miles of total range?

Your subsequent post says 15% to 70%, so let's say 55% for 160 miles, so a total range of 290 miles?

If there is a limitation that your case study can only charge 55% at a time, then it is fair play and apple to apple comparison to F30 3-series with no such limitation(last drop of fuel, ok maybe LPHP will burn up).
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  #3631  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Taking a step back, my lowly 3-series can do 600+ miles per tank 16 gallons, so 5 refuels to stretch to 3000 miles, for 3-4 minutes per stop. @$4 is $320, and 20 minutes.

In comparison, Model 3/EV needs 18 [email protected] minutes each, costing $158 and 360 minutes.

Hmm, it may be worth $180 to some to save 320 minutes(5+ hours!), yes/no?
Per fester's objection, let's go with 6 refuels for 500 miles each, so tank still has 100+ miles left, say, 2.5+ gallons left to save LPFP.

Or use Michael's number of 560 miles, so 500 miles per fill up, and 60 miles of range to keep LPFP happy.

That extra fuel stop is extra 3-4 minutes, which is really not that much.

Last edited by namelessman; 10-09-2019 at 04:45 PM.
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  #3632  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:24 PM
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G20 has got the EuroNCAP crash test results

beats Tesla Model 3 in all categories except the "Safety assist". Looks like lane assist isn't great, everything else is good. Beats Model 3 at AEB. Which I already guessed from http://www.tannistest.com/


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  #3633  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
Apply the same bit of absurdity regarding range with the Model 3, which has a 310 mile range, and you're down to 8 stops for 3,000 miles. I was trying to be realistic, but if you don't want to you really shouldn't be making the comparisons you're making as if they're apples to apples when they're not. That's just deceptive and misleading.
An inquisitive mind pointed out that tesla.com/trips does not agree with 160 miles and 18 stops for 3000 miles(and please confirm with your trip planner in your car).

SFO -> JFK 2976 miles, for 23 stops from 10 minutes to 50 minutes of charge time per stop.

In this route, let's be unrealistic to make a F30 stop every time a Model 3 needs to charge per Tesla, and let's say 5 minutes per refuel. Total time for F30 is 23 * 5 minutes = 115 minutes.

Adding up the charge time per Tesla for this 2976 miles, it is 750 minutes. Maybe some of those 45-55 minutes of charge time can be shortened per even more stops?

So it would be 115 minutes and $320 for F30, versus 750 minutes and $160? That is almost 10 extra hours needed for Model 3 versus F30!!!

San Francisco International Airport (SFO), San Francisco, CA 94128, USA
Rocklin, CA, 10 min charge
Truckee, CA - Donner Pass Road, 30 min charge
Lovelock, NV, 20 min charge
Winnemucca, NV, 35 min charge
Elko, NV, 25 min charge
West Wendover, NV, 25 min charge
Tooele, UT, 25 min charge
Evanston, WY, 25 min charge
Rock Springs, WY, 30 min charge
Rawlins, WY, 25 min charge
Laramie, WY, 35 min charge
Sidney, NE, 40 min charge
Gothenburg, NE, 25 min charge
Grand Island, NE, 45 min charge
Council Bluffs, IA, 35 min charge
West Des Moines, IA. 35 min charge
Coralville, IA, 45 min charge
Peru, IL, 55 min charge
Mishawaka, IN, 40 min charge
Maumee, OH, 35 min charge
Macedonia, OH, 50 min charge
Falls Creek, PA, 40 min charge
Bloomsburg, PA, 50 min charge
John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), Queens, NY 11430, USA
Duration: 58 h (2,978 mi)

Last edited by namelessman; 10-11-2019 at 09:29 AM.
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  #3634  
Old 10-11-2019, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
An inquisitive mind pointed out that tesla.com/trips does not agree with 160 miles and 18 stops for 3000 miles(and please confirm with your trip planner in your car).

SFO -> JFK 2976 miles, for 23 stops from 10 minutes to 50 minutes of charge time per stop.

In this route, let's be unrealistic to make a F30 stop every time a Model 3 needs to charge per Tesla, and let's say 5 minutes per refuel. Total time for F30 is 23 * 5 minutes = 115 minutes.

Adding up the charge time per Tesla for this 2976 miles, it is 750 minutes. Maybe some of those 45-55 minutes of charge time can be shortened per even more stops?

So it would be 115 minutes and $320 for F30, versus 750 minutes and $160? That is almost 10 extra hours needed for Model 3 versus F30!!!

San Francisco International Airport (SFO), San Francisco, CA 94128, USA
Rocklin, CA, 10 min charge
Truckee, CA - Donner Pass Road, 30 min charge
Lovelock, NV, 20 min charge
Winnemucca, NV, 35 min charge
Elko, NV, 25 min charge
West Wendover, NV, 25 min charge
Tooele, UT, 25 min charge
Evanston, WY, 25 min charge
Rock Springs, WY, 30 min charge
Rawlins, WY, 25 min charge
Laramie, WY, 35 min charge
Sidney, NE, 40 min charge
Gothenburg, NE, 25 min charge
Grand Island, NE, 45 min charge
Council Bluffs, IA, 35 min charge
West Des Moines, IA. 35 min charge
Coralville, IA, 45 min charge
Peru, IL, 55 min charge
Mishawaka, IN, 40 min charge
Maumee, OH, 35 min charge
Macedonia, OH, 50 min charge
Falls Creek, PA, 40 min charge
Bloomsburg, PA, 50 min charge
John F. Kennedy International Airport (JFK), Queens, NY 11430, USA
Duration: 58 h (2,978 mi)
You know you're just playing games here, and what you're posting ignores sleeping, eating, and using the bathroom just for starters. Plus the main point I was making was regarding the EA chargers, not whether or not an ICE car could complete a long trip faster. I will agree that an ICE car can cover long distances faster than even the best EVs like the Tesla, if you do a Canonball style run. I just tossed in the ICE care "for comparison's sake" from a financial standpoint. I'm not interested in going down this rabbit hole with you. Have fun.

Last edited by GregD; 10-11-2019 at 09:42 AM.
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  #3635  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:15 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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You know you're just playing games here, and what you're posting ignores sleeping, eating, and using the bathroom just for starters.
That's the point most Tesla owners gravitate to, namely, those stops need to be morphed into extended stays, and in that regard, the EA 50-70kW chargers at 2x charge time yet cheaper than supercharger makes perfect sense.

It is not that EA's are all over the map, but the fact is that Superchargers are still not as widely available as gas stations, and typical 3500-lb EVs cannot do 600+ miles per charge, any extra charging infrastructures like EA's help. And that's the rabbit hole that current gen EV owners need to navigate around.
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  #3636  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:31 AM
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It is not that EA's are all over the map, but the fact is that Superchargers are still not as widely available as gas stations, and typical 3500-lb EVs cannot do 600+ miles per charge, any extra charging infrastructures like EA's help. And that's the rabbit hole that current gen EV owners need to navigate around.
As a Tesla owner, I think it's great that there will be more high speed chargers out there, even though they will be more expensive for Tesla owners than the Tesla Supercharger network. They will also be significantly less common than Superchargers, at least for the next 7+ years. It will be interesting to see how many of the EA locations are close to existing Tesla locations; hopefully they will help to fill in some of the gaps or heavy usage areas for Tesla Superchargers. And for Tesla owners, this is all predicated on Tesla making a CCS adapter available as they have in Europe.

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  #3637  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:40 AM
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They will also be significantly less common than Superchargers, at least for the next 7+ years.
wow ...

yeah
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  #3638  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:43 AM
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That's the point most Tesla owners gravitate to, namely, those stops need to be morphed into extended stays, and in that regard, the EA 50-70kW chargers at 2x charge time yet cheaper than supercharger makes perfect sense.
From my experience on a road trip from Colorado to California and back, doubling the time at all charging stops would have added a significant amount of waiting time to my trip.

For about half the stops, doubling the time wouldn't have made a difference, but for the other half, they were typically short stops for a potty break and a snack, call it 15 to 20 minutes, and resulted in little to no time waiting for the charger. If the charging times doubled to 30 to 40 minutes, then I'd be sitting around twiddling my thumbs for an extra 15 to 20 minutes, which would be annoying. Typically, there were 2 of these stops each day.

Also, the longer stops were used to charge the car up to 80%, 90%, or more, which takes a lot longer, 45 minutes to an hour. Tesla typically charges by the kWh, so the time doesn't matter to the cost as the charge rate slows down. This isn't the case with Electrify America, and using EA chargers versus Superchargers would be significantly more expensive over the course of the entire trip.

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  #3639  
Old 10-12-2019, 01:20 AM
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From my experience on a road trip from Colorado to California and back, doubling the time at all charging stops would have added a significant amount of waiting time to my trip.

For about half the stops, doubling the time wouldn't have made a difference, but for the other half, they were typically short stops for a potty break and a snack, call it 15 to 20 minutes, and resulted in little to no time waiting for the charger. If the charging times doubled to 30 to 40 minutes, then I'd be sitting around twiddling my thumbs for an extra 15 to 20 minutes, which would be annoying. Typically, there were 2 of these stops each day.

Also, the longer stops were used to charge the car up to 80%, 90%, or more, which takes a lot longer, 45 minutes to an hour. Tesla typically charges by the kWh, so the time doesn't matter to the cost as the charge rate slows down. This isn't the case with Electrify America, and using EA chargers versus Superchargers would be significantly more expensive over the course of the entire trip.
My thinking is that the 75kW to 80%/90% is not 2x slower than 125kW, e.g. 125kW can only go up to 50% when charge rate starts to drop off, while 75kW can keep going till, say, 75%, before tampering off.

Parallel networks like EA serve to compliment any existing infrastructure, e.g. while some Superchargers are rationing charge time a nearly EA can relieve some of the congestion.

Realistically, stops more than 20 minutes(assuming no wait) do get annoying without some activities(e.g. dining).
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  #3640  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:33 AM
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My thinking is that the 75kW to 80%/90% is not 2x slower than 125kW, e.g. 125kW can only go up to 50% when charge rate starts to drop off, while 75kW can keep going till, say, 75%, before tampering off.

Parallel networks like EA serve to compliment any existing infrastructure, e.g. while some Superchargers are rationing charge time a nearly EA can relieve some of the congestion.

Realistically, stops more than 20 minutes(assuming no wait) do get annoying without some activities(e.g. dining).
Keep in mind that the Tesla Superchargers are also being upgraded. Most of them are now capable of up to 150kW charge rate. Even back in June, when we did our road trip, about half of the Superchargers would charge the car at over 140kW. And then there are the V3 Superchargers which can charge at up to 250kW. Today, there are only a few, but that is changing.

We didn't run into any situations where we had to wait for a charger on our trip, but I know it does happen sometimes, especially on high travel days like holidays. The rationing is to a certain charge percentage, usually 80, not a charge time, and it can be overridden by the car owner if desired. We did run into the limiting at one charging station, but since I had only planned on charging up to about 65% there, it wasn't an issue. In any case, having more options like the EA system is only a plus from my perspective, but it would be a secondary choice at this point in time.

When we were on the road trip, we'd only charge up enough to get to our next stop if we weren't stopping for a meal or to sleep. On a number of these stops, the car was charged up before we were ready to go.

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  #3641  
Old 10-12-2019, 04:35 PM
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Looks like Tesla is a little far from 'automated driving on city streets'.

The pedestrian detection basically doesn't work at night. And I don't think this can be much improved with the current sensor suite. Then add rain at night scenario, even worse.

I expect the maximum the Model 3 will be able to achieve on city streets is automated driving at daylight in ok weather with driver's attention.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/10/aaa...n-needed-most/

https://vimeo.com/358905147/2f810c8a53
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  #3642  
Old 10-12-2019, 07:28 PM
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Looks like Tesla is a little far from 'automated driving on city streets'.

The pedestrian detection basically doesn't work at night. And I don't think this can be much improved with the current sensor suite. Then add rain at night scenario, even worse.

I expect the maximum the Model 3 will be able to achieve on city streets is automated driving at daylight in ok weather with driver's attention.

https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/10/aaa...n-needed-most/

https://vimeo.com/358905147/2f810c8a53
Yes, I think Elon's pronouncements on when full self driving will actually be functional are rather optimistic, and the cars are currently quite far, in my opinion, from "automated driving on city streets".

That said, I disagree with you regarding how much this can be improved with the current sensor suite. From what I've heard, the current software is still not using any of the version 3 computer capabilities which are supposed to be a couple of orders of magnitude more powerful than the version 2.5 computer capabilities that the software is currently utilizing. When the system starts taking advantage of the increased computing power, interpretation and utilization of the information from the sensor suite should improve substantially.
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  #3643  
Old 10-12-2019, 08:06 PM
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Yes, I think Elon's pronouncements on when full self driving will actually be functional are rather optimistic, and the cars are currently quite far, in my opinion, from "automated driving on city streets".

That said, I disagree with you regarding how much this can be improved with the current sensor suite. From what I've heard, the current software is still not using any of the version 3 computer capabilities which are supposed to be a couple of orders of magnitude more powerful than the version 2.5 computer capabilities that the software is currently utilizing. When the system starts taking advantage of the increased computing power, interpretation and utilization of the information from the sensor suite should improve substantially.
Note that the system failed at night in a situation which it was trained for - by daylight (detecting pedestrians when driving straight. this is a test EuroNCAP does and every car maker trains their cars for this). This was not the weakness of the computing power but the sensor suite. Camera becomes very noisy at night.

Face recognition has less accuracy on dark skin than on lighter colors. (this is about tech not racism)
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  #3644  
Old 10-12-2019, 09:18 PM
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You know you're just playing games here, and what you're posting ignores sleeping, eating, and using the bathroom just for starters.
Many road trips do not need sleeping nor eating/dining, while bathroom breaks can easily fit into a 5-minute(at most 10-minute) stop at gas station.

E.g. past experience going between SFO and SEA takes around 12+ hours(800+ miles), 2 drivers can comfortably rotate 2 shifts of 3 hours each within a day with 3 fuel stops of 5-10 minutes to switch hands, for a total of 15-30 minutes(more like 20-25 minutes total). Or the 2 drivers can change hand once in the middle to refuel, for 5-10 minutes!

Light lunch and snacks can be self served in the car, sandwiched between a big breakfast in the morning and a cozy dinner in the evening.

In contrast tesla.com/trips says such a route needs 5 stops, for a total charge time of 165 minutes.

So ICE can easily save 2-2.5 hours on this trip over Model 3, and that is not trivial.
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  #3645  
Old 10-12-2019, 10:47 PM
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Note that the system failed at night in a situation which it was trained for - by daylight (detecting pedestrians when driving straight. this is a test EuroNCAP does and every car maker trains their cars for this). This was not the weakness of the computing power but the sensor suite. Camera becomes very noisy at night.

Face recognition has less accuracy on dark skin than on lighter colors. (this is about tech not racism)
Teslas have both radar and cameras for longer ranges. Improving the computer power, and the algorithms that computer uses, will improve the results from the sensor suite. That is a fact. How much, neither you or I know. Tesla's engineers seem to think it will be sufficient; time will whether they are right or wrong.
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Old 10-12-2019, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Many road trips do not need sleeping nor eating/dining, while bathroom breaks can easily fit into a 5-minute(at most 10-minute) stop at gas station.

E.g. past experience going between SFO and SEA takes around 12+ hours(800+ miles), 2 drivers can comfortably rotate 2 shifts of 3 hours each within a day with 3 fuel stops of 5-10 minutes to switch hands, for a total of 15-30 minutes(more like 20-25 minutes total). Or the 2 drivers can change hand once in the middle to refuel, for 5-10 minutes!

Light lunch and snacks can be self served in the car, sandwiched between a big breakfast in the morning and a cozy dinner in the evening.

In contrast tesla.com/trips says such a route needs 5 stops, for a total charge time of 165 minutes.

So ICE can easily save 2-2.5 hours on this trip over Model 3, and that is not trivial.
As I have posted at least a couple of times previously in this thread, a Model 3 is NOT an optimal choice for covering long distances as quickly as possible. I've referred to this type of trip as a "Cannonball run". If that is your goal on a trip of 500 miles or more, why take a car at all? A plane is much speedier for long distance travel than any car. For a trip of 500 miles, the model 3 would take about 25 minutes longer than a comparable ICE car, assuming you only need to stop once in the minimum 6 hours such a trip would require. When is the last time you took a 6+ hour drive in your car, where an extra 25 minutes would have really made a difference?

Last edited by GregD; 10-12-2019 at 11:01 PM.
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  #3647  
Old 10-12-2019, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Many road trips do not need sleeping nor eating/dining, while bathroom breaks can easily fit into a 5-minute(at most 10-minute) stop at gas station.

E.g. past experience going between SFO and SEA takes around 12+ hours(800+ miles), 2 drivers can comfortably rotate 2 shifts of 3 hours each within a day with 3 fuel stops of 5-10 minutes to switch hands, for a total of 15-30 minutes(more like 20-25 minutes total). Or the 2 drivers can change hand once in the middle to refuel, for 5-10 minutes!

Light lunch and snacks can be self served in the car, sandwiched between a big breakfast in the morning and a cozy dinner in the evening.

In contrast tesla.com/trips says such a route needs 5 stops, for a total charge time of 165 minutes.

So ICE can easily save 2-2.5 hours on this trip over Model 3, and that is not trivial.
I was curious, and you were doing an obvious apples and oranges comparison here by comparing a standardized trip planner versus your personal speedy experience. To be fair, we should compare the trip in both an ICE and EV car with typical standard trip planners for both. I'll use Google maps for the ICE car and abetterrouteplanner.com for the Model 3.

For the ICE car, Google maps shows 12 hours, 34 minutes of actual driving time. Let's assume that the two drivers have iron bladders, the car has excellent range, and that only one pit stop will be required. The stop will probably be a bit longer than the individual stops would be if 3 stops were made, so let's just go with your high end estimate of 10 minutes for a stop. This gives a total trip time of 12 hours, 44 minutes.

For the Model 3, using abetterrouteplanner and assuming that the car is fully charged at the beginning of the trip, and that the optimal charging routine is followed, it shows the trip as being completed in 14 hours, 31 minutes, or 1 hour, 47 minutes longer than the ICE banzai run. This includes 3 stops at Superchargers for 25, 27, and 23 minutes respectively.

Both route planners came up with routes that were the exact same distance at 811 miles, and appear to be identical. I don't think an extra 1 hour, 47 minutes tacked on to a 12 1/2 hour trip is too bad, and the drivers will be far less fatigued at the end of the run than they would be with the banzai ICE run. As an FYI, Tesla's trip planner is not the best; I've found abetterrouteplanner to be much better.

Last edited by GregD; 10-12-2019 at 11:32 PM. Reason: Stupid error made in initial version. :)
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  #3648  
Old 10-13-2019, 12:03 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
For the Model 3, using abetterrouteplanner and assuming that the car is fully charged at the beginning of the trip, and that the optimal charging routine is followed, it shows the trip as being completed in 14 hours, 31 minutes, or 1 hour, 47 minutes longer than the ICE banzai run. This includes 3 stops at Superchargers for 25, 27, and 23 minutes respectively.
It is unclear what is the difference of your trip planner versus Tesla's own planner, which gives the attached route below, with 5 stops, and charge times of 30, 25, 35, 20, 45 minutes respectively. So Tesla's own estimate is a total of 16 hours

Maybe you can plug this itinerary into your car and see what it says?

Your 12.5 hours for 814 miles in an ICE is with constant 65mph, even adding 30 minutes for 3 stops(and 10 minutes per stop to refuel and bathroom breaks) is only 12.5 + 0.5 = 13 hours, or the Model 3 still takes extra 3 hours.

(With Model 3 LR)
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), San Francisco, CA 94128, USA
Corning, CA, 30 min charge
Mount Shasta, CA - 111 Morgan Way, 25 min charge
Grants Pass, OR, 35 min charge
Springfield, OR - Kruse Way, 30 min charge
Vancouver, WA, 45 min charge
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), 17801 International Blvd, Seattle, WA 98158, USA
Duration: 16 h (814 mi)
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  #3649  
Old 10-13-2019, 12:07 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
If that is your goal on a trip of 500 miles or more, why take a car at all?
Have u experience kids going to college with lots of stuff to transport? BTW the 3000-mile trip on a EV was first proposed by you!

Last edited by namelessman; 10-13-2019 at 12:19 AM.
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  #3650  
Old 10-13-2019, 12:27 AM
namelessman namelessman is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
(With Model 3 LR)
San Francisco International Airport (SFO), San Francisco, CA 94128, USA
Corning, CA, 30 min charge
Mount Shasta, CA - 111 Morgan Way, 25 min charge
Grants Pass, OR, 35 min charge
Springfield, OR - Kruse Way, 30 min charge
Vancouver, WA, 45 min charge
Seattle-Tacoma International Airport (SEA), 17801 International Blvd, Seattle, WA 98158, USA
Duration: 16 h (814 mi)
The same route on abetterouteplanner gives the same route as Tesla's, all 5 stops! But abetterouteplanner's trip time of 14:43 and 1:14 of charge time is more optimistic than Tesla's own estimate.

https://abetterrouteplanner.com/?pla...1-4c601950c09b
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