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  #1  
Old 11-06-2019, 05:21 AM
billyconforto billyconforto is offline
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Im a terrible negotiator

Guys

Big thanks for help with my other question about my wagon.

Throughout my entire life, I always pay too much for things. Every car Ive ever owned/leased, I always pay too much. It's genetic.

Im looking at a 2020 M340 sticker almost 63000. id like to lease at 12000/year. NYC/NNJ area

The way I look at leases, Im only concerned with total money spent by the end of the lease.

Although I know in general you shouldn't put anything down, Id like to avoid having to manage a high payment each month.

One issue I have is that if I put a lot down and the car gets totaled, do I lose that down payment? Is there anyway to insure that down payment?

And then, what should I expect to pay total for this lease?

I know their is another section for this question but it doesn't seem to get much action.
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2019, 06:40 AM
rounderman rounderman is online now
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okay I sometimes feel the same way. However remember you drive the car not the deal. now on to your question. Only put down what you would have to put down if the car was totaled if you need to manage your payment. By that I mean sales tax , and tags. stuff that won't be covered by the gap insurance built into the lease. Any other cap reduction is gone if you total the car driving it off the lot. If you have the money for a down payment, put in a savings account and transfer 1/36 of it into your checking account each month when you make your lease payment. Now a days this can all be set up to happen automatically so no worries about forgetting. I got a 2019 X2 M35 for invoice minus incentives in May. Invoice is a relatively easy to find out. Incentives are on the BMW USA website for your zip code (dealers zip code to be exact where you live only impacts sales tax). They are regional. I also know some folks got a better deal than me. If found with a little research that out of state deals were hard to come by for an order (wanted to do PCD) but in the end my local dealer was reasonable and I really love my car. remember it is the car not what you paid. As an aside, my CA has mentioned on several occasions sedans are not selling well so a good deal is probably likely. Good luck on the hunt and post pictures of your new ride when you get it
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2019, 07:25 AM
billyconforto billyconforto is offline
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Originally Posted by rounderman View Post
okay I sometimes feel the same way. However remember you drive the car not the deal. now on to your question. Only put down what you would have to put down if the car was totaled if you need to manage your payment. By that I mean sales tax , and tags. stuff that won't be covered by the gap insurance built into the lease. Any other cap reduction is gone if you total the car driving it off the lot. If you have the money for a down payment, put in a savings account and transfer 1/36 of it into your checking account each month when you make your lease payment. Now a days this can all be set up to happen automatically so no worries about forgetting. I got a 2019 X2 M35 for invoice minus incentives in May. Invoice is a relatively easy to find out. Incentives are on the BMW USA website for your zip code (dealers zip code to be exact where you live only impacts sales tax). They are regional. I also know some folks got a better deal than me. If found with a little research that out of state deals were hard to come by for an order (wanted to do PCD) but in the end my local dealer was reasonable and I really love my car. remember it is the car not what you paid. As an aside, my CA has mentioned on several occasions sedans are not selling well so a good deal is probably likely. Good luck on the hunt and post pictures of your new ride when you get it
great point about the down payment. and also, i guess i can just put money in a savings account. im not worried about missing a payment, its just more difficult to manage overall finances with a huge payment every month.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:51 AM
ctorrey ctorrey is offline
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Excellent advice from rounderman about Cap Cost Reductions (aka, lease 'down payment').

Here's what I'm seeing as a strong deal on '20 M340i right now:
- Negotiated Cap Cost (i.e., 'sales price of the car'): Shoot for 10% off MSRP and then add available incentives (I believe there is a $2k lease credit among others)
- Money Factor: 'Buy Rate' (currently .00128, I believe for November) Try to avoid a markup (dealers can go as far as +.0004 or .00168 this month)
- Residual: I believe 12k miles is 60% but this is set by BMWFS and not subject to negotiation
- Extra Credit: Instead of making a down payment, consider using refundable MSDs (multiple security deposits) to lower the effective money factor. Each MSD (lease payment round up to nearest $50 increment) drops your money factor by .0005 and maxes out at 7 MSDs (or .00035 MF discount)

Best piece of advice I can give you is to make sure you understand how leases work. Everything I described above is available on line - in particular, check out the G20 board on https://www.bimmerpost.com/ Tons of deal and lease information there!

Good luck!
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Last edited by ctorrey; 11-06-2019 at 10:52 AM.
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2019, 10:57 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by billyconforto View Post
One issue I have is that if I put a lot down and the car gets totaled, do I lose that down payment? Is there anyway to insure that down payment?

And then, what should I expect to pay total for this lease?
The down payment in lease is prepaid depreciation which gets consumed during the course of lease term.

E.g. down payment of $3600 reduces depreciation paid by $100 a month for a 3-year lease. Every month passes by and $100 is used up.

So if car is totaled in 35th month, only $100 of down payment is lost, while if car is totaled in 1st month, $$3500 of down payment is lost.
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2019, 11:40 AM
billyconforto billyconforto is offline
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Originally Posted by ctorrey View Post
Excellent advice from rounderman about Cap Cost Reductions (aka, lease 'down payment').

Here's what I'm seeing as a strong deal on '20 M340i right now:
- Negotiated Cap Cost (i.e., 'sales price of the car'): Shoot for 10% off MSRP and then add available incentives (I believe there is a $2k lease credit among others)
- Money Factor: 'Buy Rate' (currently .00128, I believe for November) Try to avoid a markup (dealers can go as far as +.0004 or .00168 this month)
- Residual: I believe 12k miles is 60% but this is set by BMWFS and not subject to negotiation
- Extra Credit: Instead of making a down payment, consider using refundable MSDs (multiple security deposits) to lower the effective money factor. Each MSD (lease payment round up to nearest $50 increment) drops your money factor by .0005 and maxes out at 7 MSDs (or .00035 MF discount)

Best piece of advice I can give you is to make sure you understand how leases work. Everything I described above is available on line - in particular, check out the G20 board on https://www.bimmerpost.com/ Tons of deal and lease information there!

Good luck!
Thanks so much

I understand a lot of that

But the only way I can actually wrap my head around the numbers is...

how much did I spend in total at the end of the lease

on a car that is 63000 sticker, Im thinking I should spend around 25000 total but I know they will want to get much more out of me and I always see people quoting great lease deals that end up being around $20000 for cars w/ same type sticker price
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Old 11-06-2019, 11:56 AM
NYNICX5 NYNICX5 is offline
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It depends on what the residual value of the vehicle is... Residual values & MF cannot be negotiated. From what you just stated, you'd also have to take out the tax as you cannot "add" it into the price of the vehicle to see what you paid for the car at the end of the lease, hopefully that makes sense...

What ctorrey said is spot on...

I've leased for the past 19 years & just broke up with leasing last weekend & purchased a 2018 X5....in leasing sometimes the monthly payment while affordable, may not be the best deal... but it also boils down to what you're comfortable paying too ***x1f642;

Last edited by NYNICX5; 11-06-2019 at 12:00 PM.
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  #8  
Old 11-06-2019, 11:56 AM
rounderman rounderman is online now
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never forget and I know this is hard to believe but take what is said on the "great deals" with a grain of salt. Even my deal I also put down the sales tax and DMV fee and the 500 i was getting from BMWCCA. This was done to keep my payment at what I determined was a reasonable level and knowing that if I totaled the car I would have been liable for the sales tax and DMV fee anyway. the extra 500 was a wash but I was willing to risk 500. what I wouldn't have done was put a larger down payment just to keep the monthly lower at a greater risk. so in essence folks tend to exaggerate and people only post the "great deals" not ones where they weren't as good as another one. Other factors are when in the month, how close a particular dealer is to the next dealer bonus and things like that. my advice is stop obsessing on what the deal is compared to someone else. over the course of 3 years 3,000 more in cost is 80 per month (rounded) if that is significant to your cash flow or your psyche think carefully before splurging on an expensive luxury item. Life is short, if you can swing the cash, go enjoy the car and don't obsess over the deal. also read a bunch of posts from 1968BMW2800 very wise and sage person when it comes to buying a luxury car. If we wanted to drive the sensible car it would be a Honda or Toyota or Mazda (for some reason I don't like Nissan) but you get my point. Please post pics of your new ride so we can all enjoy the ride
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:28 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billyconforto View Post
on a car that is 63000 sticker, Im thinking I should spend around 25000 total but I know they will want to get much more out of me and I always see people quoting great lease deals that end up being around $20000 for cars w/ same type sticker price
$20k 3-year lease with 15k miles/per year on $63k MSRP? That can be doable dependent on incentives. Most festers say they are happy with 1% MSRP per month payment, or $630/month all in, or $22680 3 years including tax, drive off, fees, etc etc..

My suggestion is figure out invoice(usually 7-8% of MSRP), and then all applicable incentives, it may be doable to get 15% off MSRP.

Then figure out if 10k miles/year is OK, as that can drop 3% off depreciation paid, or $2k cheaper than 15k miles/year.

So $20k all-in for 3 years is not too far-fetch.
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Old 11-06-2019, 06:27 PM
billyconforto billyconforto is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
$20k 3-year lease with 15k miles/per year on $63k MSRP? That can be doable dependent on incentives. Most festers say they are happy with 1% MSRP per month payment, or $630/month all in, or $22680 3 years including tax, drive off, fees, etc etc..

My suggestion is figure out invoice(usually 7-8% of MSRP), and then all applicable incentives, it may be doable to get 15% off MSRP.

Then figure out if 10k miles/year is OK, as that can drop 3% off depreciation paid, or $2k cheaper than 15k miles/year.

So $20k all-in for 3 years is not too far-fetch.
thanks for this.
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:21 AM
ctorrey ctorrey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYNICX5 View Post
It depends on what the residual value of the vehicle is... Residual values & MF cannot be negotiated. From what you just stated, you'd also have to take out the tax as you cannot "add" it into the price of the vehicle to see what you paid for the car at the end of the lease, hopefully that makes sense...

What ctorrey said is spot on...

I've leased for the past 19 years & just broke up with leasing last weekend & purchased a 2018 X5....in leasing sometimes the monthly payment while affordable, may not be the best deal... but it also boils down to what you're comfortable paying too ***x1f642;
This is not 100% accurate. One cannot negotiate the money factor below the 'buy rate', but if the dealer marks it up, you absolutely can negotiate it down - hopefully to the buy rate. The only exception are instances where you are not eligible for the buy rate due to credit issues.
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2017 340i xDrive | Mineral Gray | Coral Red Dakota | M-Sport | M Performance Power & Sound | ZCW | ZDA | ZLP | 2PE | 2VF| ZTP | 5DL | 5DP | 6CP
2017 X3 2.8 xDrive | Deep Sea Blue | Saddle Brown Dakota | ZXD | ZW2 | ZDA | ZLP | ZP3 | ZTP | 5DL


Gone, but not forgotten:
14 BMW 335xi F30
11 BMW 335xi E90
08 BMW 335i E90
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01 Audi A6 4.2q
98 Audi A4 2.8q
91 BMW 535i
87 BMW 325e
84 VW Rabbit GTI
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:38 AM
NYNICX5 NYNICX5 is offline
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I never had a lease where the MF was negotiable... interesting though. I have excellent credit, so that would not be a factor for my past leases.

Just multiply the MF by 2,400 to get the actual %, compare it to what current market rates are...

Also check the residual value, that is almost non negotiable & really is what drives the price.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:42 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by NYNICX5 View Post
Also check the residual value, that is almost non negotiable & really is what drives the price.
The RV decides the lease end price, and RV is not negotiable. However, the selling price, or cap cost, is negotiable. The goal is to squeeze down the difference of selling price and RV, such that the depreciation paid is as low as possible.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:08 AM
NYNICX5 NYNICX5 is offline
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Yes and the higher the residual value, the better your lease numbers will looks like...if RV was at 49% I'd walk, well run, away real fast...
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Old 11-07-2019, 03:28 PM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Originally Posted by billyconforto View Post
ts just more difficult to manage overall finances with a huge payment every month.
This is a red flag to me, and I am a huge proponent of leasing. If you think a $600 to $700 payment is huge, you really shouldn't be leasing. Pay cash for a CPO and get on with your life.

For many of us, negotiating the lease terms is half of the fun. I have always done my own calculations, told the dealer what I was willing to pay, and the monthly payment I calculated is usually correct down to the penny, and has never been off by more than 10 cents per month. I derive an high degree of pleasure from controlling the process.

From your multiple threads, it's clear you don't share my affliction. I think you would be best served by employing the use of a lease broker, or a pre-negotiated leasing system like True Car. This whole process is causing you agita instead of joy.
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Old 11-07-2019, 05:17 PM
billyconforto billyconforto is offline
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
This is a red flag to me, and I am a huge proponent of leasing. If you think a $600 to $700 payment is huge, you really shouldn't be leasing. Pay cash for a CPO and get on with your life.

For many of us, negotiating the lease terms is half of the fun. I have always done my own calculations, told the dealer what I was willing to pay, and the monthly payment I calculated is usually correct down to the penny, and has never been off by more than 10 cents per month. I derive an high degree of pleasure from controlling the process.

From your multiple threads, it's clear you don't share my affliction. I think you would be best served by employing the use of a lease broker, or a pre-negotiated leasing system like True Car. This whole process is causing you agita instead of joy.
i knew that statement would be interpreted the wrong way.
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Old 11-15-2019, 11:44 AM
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These Internet forums are a great place for info, but as others have mentioned, not every "great deal" that is posted is totally factual and complete. No one (well, few of us...) want to admit that they didn't get such a great deal. Look at swapalease.com to see what common folk are paying. Now, you can't tell what kind of down payment/cap cost they negotiated, but if you just assume nothing down and look at their payments, you'll see that most people don't do so well. $700/month for a $63K car is actually a pretty good deal, if you can do it. Reality may be higher. Prepare for that.

If you've got enough for a decent down payment, then you've demonstrated enough financial discipline to manage a steep payment. Just budget, move money from your savings as needed, and you should be OK. The great thing about leasing a new BMW is that the only expenses you will have is gas, insurance and property tax. And you will probably need to buy a set of tires near the end.
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Old 11-15-2019, 12:39 PM
billyconforto billyconforto is offline
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Originally Posted by BeemerGuy View Post
These Internet forums are a great place for info, but as others have mentioned, not every "great deal" that is posted is totally factual and complete. No one (well, few of us...) want to admit that they didn't get such a great deal. Look at swapalease.com to see what common folk are paying. Now, you can't tell what kind of down payment/cap cost they negotiated, but if you just assume nothing down and look at their payments, you'll see that most people don't do so well. $700/month for a $63K car is actually a pretty good deal, if you can do it. Reality may be higher. Prepare for that.

If you've got enough for a decent down payment, then you've demonstrated enough financial discipline to manage a steep payment. Just budget, move money from your savings as needed, and you should be OK. The great thing about leasing a new BMW is that the only expenses you will have is gas, insurance and property tax. And you will probably need to buy a set of tires near the end.
good point. I have looked at swapalease and most payments do seem high like you are saying.
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