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  #1  
Old 01-22-2017, 02:11 PM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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ZF Transmission Adaptation Values - Tracking / Comparison

I recently replaced the transmission solenoids in my 2006 325xi with 350k miles. The adaptation values have drastically changed from what they were before the solenoids were replaced and appear to be more similar to each other than before.

The adaptations stopped changing around 1500 miles.

I'm curious how my adaptation values compare to others, especially those with low miles, high miles since last service, and recently replaced solenoids. I'm trying to get a *rough* idea of the condition of the clutches. Are new transmission/clutch adaptation values very close to zero, are they positive or negative and slowly drift the other way as the transmission wears? Is there any correlation that can give an idea of remaining clutch life.

On these graphs, the values on the far left are the stable values before replacing the solenoids. The next value is 0 when the adaptation was cleared, and then several readings over the next 2000 miles. I only included A,B,C on the fill times because I've never seen values other than 0 for D and E, even before the solenoid change.



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Last edited by gogglespisano; 02-01-2017 at 11:10 AM. Reason: Updated graphs
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2017, 04:16 PM
smassey321 smassey321 is online now
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Very interesting stuff. What are you using to log the data? I can give you some numbers from my recently serviced 110k 325i. I am in the middle of an adaption now and it is close to perfect. Before I purchased it, I researched ZF 6 speeds (we have 3 BMWs with them) for 100s of hours and I could not find a single clutch failure. The X5 guys from 2004 are changing their solenoids as you have. Solenoids, sleeves and rarely a bushing. That is all that goes wrong.
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Old 01-22-2017, 04:56 PM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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I'm collecting data by hand into a spreadsheet.

If you send me your data i'll start aggregating the data to see if there are trends and update my post with new graphs.

Good data points would be:
  1. Pressure and fill times (obviously)
  2. ZF/BMW model
  3. Total mileage on transmission
  4. Miles since last fluid change
  5. Miles since last solenoid change

To add some history to mine, the fluid was changed at 141k (BMW), 250k (Redline) and 349k (ZF Lifegaurd 6)
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Old 01-25-2017, 07:03 PM
smassey321 smassey321 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gogglespisano View Post
I'm collecting data by hand into a spreadsheet.

If you send me your data i'll start aggregating the data to see if there are trends and update my post with new graphs.

Good data points would be:
  1. Pressure and fill times (obviously)
  2. ZF/BMW model
  3. Total mileage on transmission
  4. Miles since last fluid change
  5. Miles since last solenoid change

To add some history to mine, the fluid was changed at 141k (BMW), 250k (Redline) and 349k (ZF Lifegaurd 6)

What program are you using to capture the data? Testo? ISTA D?
thanks
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Old 01-25-2017, 07:18 PM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smassey321 View Post
what program are you using to capture the data? Testo? Ista d?
Thanks
ista d
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  #6  
Old 02-01-2017, 11:13 AM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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I've updated the graphs with new readings. All of the clutch pressures have stopped moving.

Most stopped around 500 miles. Clutch A started with the highest value and after about 1500 miles it settled in at the lowest value.

In moderate/light driving it's now difficult to feel the shift changes.
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Old 02-04-2017, 02:07 PM
smassey321 smassey321 is online now
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Are these values taken at idle in neutral? I am going to reset adaptions and monitor.
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  #8  
Old 02-04-2017, 02:56 PM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smassey321 View Post
Are these values taken at idle in neutral? I am going to reset adaptions and monitor.
These change very slowly over time. You read them with the car off, just key on like fault codes.
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2017, 10:55 AM
smassey321 smassey321 is online now
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OK I think I found the correct values in ISTA+. Am I on the right track? These are after a reset about 100 miles ago. 06 325i w/ 111,000 miles. Just changed the fluid.
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  #10  
Old 02-05-2017, 12:49 PM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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Interesting values. Your values are quite similar to what mine were before the solenoid change, but mine have changed and are very different from yours now after the solenoid change.

Note how clutch C is the biggest outlier and is very negative for both of us, however my C is now my highest value.

Code:
                Mine    Before   Mine      Now
Clutch  Yours   Before  Diff     Now       Diff
A       244     60      -184     -390      -634
B       48      22      -26      -338      -386
C       -374    -399    -25      -160      214
D       61      58      -3       -284      -345
E       207     300     93       -300      -507
Anyone have their values after a recent solenoid change to compare?

Is the difference because my transmission is much older, or because my solenoids are new?
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  #11  
Old 02-06-2017, 10:06 AM
smassey321 smassey321 is online now
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ZF just replied to my email. Here is what they said regarding the C value.

The pressures look good. The only one that is close to being out of spec is C. Brake C is actually gets pressured 1-2 and then releases 2-1. The best suggestion might be to replace the C pressure regulator. The correct fluid and level along with pressure regulator replacement might do the trick. If it doesn't resolve the issue then you might have a bushing that is worn but the pressures don't suggest that..
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Old 07-02-2018, 02:28 PM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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ZF Transmission Adaptation Update

It's been a while since I posted this, and I've been tracking the adaptation on 2 vehicles that had solenoid valves replaced.

KV09520 had the solenoids replaced at 349k.
KV11930 had the solenoids replaced at 120k.
0km on the graph is when the solenoids were replaced.

On the left of each graph is the values before the transmission service. So far, the values haven't moved back to those sort of values. I'm still waiting to see a trend toward the need for service or EOL.

Both transmissions are working fine. KV11930 may have been used in failsafe mode for a bit before I got it.







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Old 07-03-2018, 05:10 AM
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banglenot banglenot is offline
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Very interesting -- can you reference a training or operations document that discusses the processes that develop these values? I'd like to learn more. Thanks
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Old 07-03-2018, 09:38 AM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banglenot View Post
Very interesting -- can you reference a training or operations document that discusses the processes that develop these values? I'd like to learn more. Thanks
I don't have any documentation on the adaptation process other than the instructions that say to slowly speed up, then slow down repeatedly to have it "learn." I did that process very diligently on a very flat straight road with both these cars, and it does take the bulk of the roughness off.

However, you can see from the graphs that it doesn't really settle in until 2500km or so.

Also, I think I've read that the transmission will adapt to driving style somewhat, so that may account for some of the ongoing variations, though these are daily drivers that get used very consistenly.

Since I've got many thousands of miles on the transmission since the service, I was expecting to see it start to move towards the widely dispersed values before the service was done. Now I'm wondering if it will stay steady and then move quicker later.

ZF also told me they expected the adaptation numbers to be different with different brands of fluid (and age of course). Who knows, but one of the reasons I went with LG6. I do know that KV0950 had Red Line in it before the service, and KV11930 was still factory fluid AFAIK.

I plan to talk to ZF again at some point now that I have much more data to share.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:01 PM
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banglenot banglenot is offline
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Thanks -- good info. Looking forward to more--

I expect that if Carly's new "transmission adaptation reset" feature is the same as the ISTA/INPA one, we'll start hearing about weird transmission issues as they get reset (maybe once a week ) by some folks.....
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:32 PM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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If you don't, or until you do the slow accelerate / decelerate procedure the shifts are quite abrupt.

I had to drive about 20 miles to get the the flat low traffic road where I could go up to 50 and back down slowly over a mile or so. The procedure immediately calms it down over 5-10 passes, but the 20 mile drive beforehand didn't do much. I'm sure if you kept driving moderately it would slowly work in on it's own. this also made me wonder about the values and break in when the car was first delivered.

It may be my imagination, but after constantly feeling the transmission and checking the adaptation, I think the fill times have more of an impact on the smoothness of the shift than the pressure values. I think the pressure is more of an indicator of the oil and clutch age/wear.
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Old 07-10-2018, 06:27 AM
scarface16134 scarface16134 is offline
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So what confuses me is what do the negative values you mean for quick charge pressures are those good or do you want positive pressures?
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:29 AM
gogglespisano gogglespisano is offline
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Originally Posted by scarface16134 View Post
So what confuses me is what do the negative values you mean for quick charge pressures are those good or do you want positive pressures?
Here's my understanding from speaking with ZF. (Part of it seemed inconsistent to me, hence why I'm trying to determine for myself).

The pressure numbers are relative to a nominal baseline of 300 or 400. So, -300 would mean much less pressure needed and +300 would need more pressure needed.

So, in theory the lower negative numbers are better, and as the clutches/fluid/solenoids wear, a higher pressure is needed and the numbers will increase. Based on the values before the service work, that would seem to be the case. I'm still waiting for the current numbers to start a consistent trend upward before I'm convinced.

ZF said that different fluid brands can result in noticeably different pressure values, so that may account for it also. Since I don't have values from only a fluid change yet, I can't determine what portion is from the fluid or the solenoids.
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Old 11-11-2019, 01:56 AM
macfly1202 macfly1202 is offline
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Hi, I found these elements very interesting. I have an E61 with GA6HP26Z.
I reset my adaption value as a test and my gearbox have poor response. After digging on internet I find this process for reseting adapation.

Here the link:
and the detailled blog linked https://blog.fcpeuro.com/how-to-rese...daptations-zf6.

Process for different gearbox software are listed. In my case it was Software P realern procedure.
I didn't take the time to do the whole process yet but it's very interesting to have find this process.
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clutch, fill time, pressure, solenoid, transmission, zf


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