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Old 12-15-2014, 05:31 PM
pdxbmwx5 pdxbmwx5 is offline
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Brake failure on 2012 diesel X5

I am new to this forum, but I want to see if anyone has any insight on an issue I am dealing with.

I have a 2012 X5 Diesel that started having brake issues last weekend. When I tried to brake, the brake pedal would go in about 80% of the way with no resistance and no braking. When I pushed the brakes in all the way, the car would slowly creep to a stop. It took 100+ feet to slow down from 25mph. When I realized that this made the car completely unsafe, I returned back home. The brakes functioned for a minute on my way back home and then they stopped working again.

I parked the car for the night and tried driving it the next day. The brake issue remained. I then had the car towed to the local BMW dealer when they opened on Monday. The dealer still has not been able to diagnose the problem, nor have they been able to replicate it. They bled the brake lines and preformed various tests, yet still have no answers. A representative from BMW North America even flew all the way out here to Oregon to look at the car and they still do not know what caused the brakes to fail.

Today the dealership had me come in a drive the car with a technician to see if I could replicate the problem. The brakes worked great and the issue seemed gone, however I am worried about driving the car if we don't know what caused the brakes to fail. There is huge liability associated with driving a car that may not brake when needed.

If anyone has any ideas or knowledge about how BMW NA deals with problems like this, I would greatly appreciate hearing it. Do I accept the car back and hope that the brakes don't fail? Or should I ask them to take the car back and eat the lease payments?

Last edited by pdxbmwx5; 12-15-2014 at 06:45 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-15-2014, 07:02 PM
ard ard is offline
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Odd.

I am stunned that they flew someone out to oregon simply on a REPORT. As far as the dealer is concerned, no issues, no problems, all works fine, all tests fine, the only thing is your report 'that they didnt work those two times'...and they flew a tech out? Something isnt computing here.

You can ask for anything..they WILL NOT take it back unless there is a proven defect.

More research yields:

Having said all that, are you aware of this:

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/28/b...-brake-recall/

https://www.bimmerfest.com/news/72459...gerous-brakes/

not your model, but where there is smoke there is fire..usually.

If BMW is aware of a potential design defect in the X5, and they are investigating but not yet issued an action, they may have an SIB out that tells the dealer "any brake issues call PUMA" and they may in fact have a hot team to do this kind of thing...dunno. Time for your SA to be more honest with you.
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  #3  
Old 12-15-2014, 07:15 PM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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I remember reading here about someone who reported his wife had a similar occurrence and we dismissed it as human error.

I can't find the post now but anyone of the habitué remember?

Keep us posted!!!

And to ard post, may very well be related but in my experience when you lose brake assist the pedal is hard and won't move. In this case it appears the pedal travels, but the car simply doesn't brake. That would normally be related to loss of pressure (e.g. failure of the master seals) or air in the system. But just a WAG

In addition, a failure of the vacuum pump would also cause issues to the various components that are controlled by that vacuum such as turbos and EGRs: we have seen small vacuum leaks that are large enough to affect turbos but leave the brake assist unaffected.

I suspect the answer lays elsewhere...
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Last edited by lpcapital; 12-15-2014 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 12-15-2014, 07:25 PM
pdxbmwx5 pdxbmwx5 is offline
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Thanks for the replies. I am aware of the recalls for other models, but none have been issued for mine. The service department has not given me much information, other than "we are waiting to hear back from PUMA". It is quite annoying that they don't have something to tell me after a week of having the car.

Luckily I noticed the problem before I started driving down the hill I live on, it easily could have resulted in an accident had I not noticed it before.

At this point, I don't feel safe driving the car again until I get some answers from them. I'll let y'all know if they give me any updates.
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Old 12-15-2014, 08:20 PM
ard ard is offline
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https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...ccident+brakes

Good memory
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #6  
Old 12-15-2014, 10:26 PM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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Don't forget that you can also use the parking brake as back-up in these situations. It's mandated by law, it's mechanical, and it will function to some degree even if you lose hydraulic braking. More info starting on page 16 of the E70 Longitudinal Dynamics System pdf attached.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 04d_E70 Longitudinal Dynamics Systems.pdf (795.0 KB, 196 views)

Last edited by HT417; 12-15-2014 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 12-16-2014, 10:24 AM
Michael47 Michael47 is offline
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Wow, certainly don't want to drive a car with such a problem. Intermittants are horrible to find and fix, but this one does demand a fix. I've no insight to offer, but I hope answers are forthcoming soon. The behavior you cited does suggest a hydraulic issue, but while a flush and bleed might clear the lines, it leaves the issue of why. Good luck and when they do give you the car back, let us know what they find.
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Old 12-16-2014, 11:24 AM
bill13070 bill13070 is offline
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Pad position

Shoot me down if you must but what if it is a piston stuck/sticking in ? and releasing ? that would account for the travel without resistance. ? Not sure if it is possible
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Old 12-17-2014, 02:05 PM
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serge1 serge1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT417 View Post
Don't forget that you can also use the parking brake as back-up in these situations. It's mandated by law, it's mechanical, and it will function to some degree even if you lose hydraulic braking. More info starting on page 16 of the E70 Longitudinal Dynamics System pdf attached.
Won't do much to help you. Engaging the parking brake while moving only slightly jerks the car and then releases.
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Old 12-17-2014, 02:12 PM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serge1 View Post
Won't do much to help you. Engaging the parking brake while moving only slightly jerks the car and then releases.
I have a difference experience: are you holding the switch up?

From the E70 Logitudinal Dynamics white paper:

"The parking brake (EMF) has two different functions, depending on the operating status of the vehicle.

• Parking brake mode
– When the engine is running or the vehicle is rolling, the parking brake acts on the service brake with the aid of the DSC hydraulics. This means the brake units on the front and rear axle are active.
– If the engine is not running and the vehicle is stationary, the electromechanical actuator and its cable assembly ensure the parking brake acts on the duo-servo drum brake on the rear axle. In this case, the vehicle is braked as defined in the control unit.

• Dynamic braking

Defined retardation is triggered via the DSC system if the parking brake button is pulled up while driving. The retardation or deceleration is monitored by the DSC control functions and takes place for as long as the parking brake button is pulled."
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Old 12-17-2014, 02:56 PM
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HT417 HT417 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serge1 View Post
Won't do much to help you. Engaging the parking brake while moving only slightly jerks the car and then releases.
If you continue reading further from where lp quotes Dynamic Braking near the bottom of page 18 you can see that it's a mandated by law, direct replacement for the old hand or foot parking brake and even gives deceleration specs of 3 m/s2 ramping to and holding at 5 m/s2 for as long as the button is held. I'm no physics major so I can't get my head around what that would feel like but it's most likely an improvement over a soft pedal. The brake lights will be activated to warn following drivers and "The more effective braking solution is used if the parking brake deceleration request is overlapped by the brake pedal being depressed. The DSC control unit decides which deceleration request is to be carried out."

Seems like a well thought out process.

Last edited by HT417; 12-17-2014 at 02:57 PM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 03:04 PM
lpcapital lpcapital is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT417 View Post
If you continue reading further from where lp quotes Dynamic Braking near the bottom of page 18 you can see that it's a mandated by law, direct replacement for the old hand or foot parking brake and even gives deceleration specs of 3 m/s2 ramping to and holding at 5 m/s2 for as long as the button is held. I'm no physics major so I can't get my head around what that would feel like but it's most likely an improvement over a soft pedal. The brake lights will be activated to warn following drivers and "The more effective braking solution is used if the parking brake deceleration request is overlapped by the brake pedal being depressed. The DSC control unit decides which deceleration request is to be carried out."

Seems like a well thought out process.
60mph is roughly 100 km/h which is 27.7m/s. At a deceleration of 5 m/s^2 it takes 5.5 seconds to come to a complete stop. As far as distance goes that calculates out to roughly 225 feet.

Regarding the soft pedal I guess it depends what the failure point is: is there's a problem with the master cylinder then maybe, but if the problem lays elsewhere then you may be SOL... It's a well thought out process as long as it works as intended...
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Last edited by lpcapital; 12-17-2014 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 12-17-2014, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lpcapital View Post
60mph is roughly 100 km/h which is 27.7m/s. At a deceleration of 5 m/s^2 it takes 5.5 seconds to come to a complete stop. As far as distance goes that calculates out to roughly 225 feet.

Regarding the soft pedal I guess it depends what the failure point is: is there's a problem with the master cylinder then maybe, but if the problem lays elsewhere then you may be SOL... It's a well thought out process as long as it works as intended...
Roughly twice the normal stopping distance with an emergency brake; not too shabby.
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Old 12-17-2014, 10:18 PM
txagbmw txagbmw is offline
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haven't had the loss brake pedal issue. But at times the brakes just grab. Have
had passengers go why are you slamming on the brakes. Go not, just the
way they act sometimes.

BMW at the last SES on the diesel, bled the brakes. Thought was
maybe corrected till yesterday and happened again. Its stops but
if another car is right on your tail in traffic, might get bumped. Your
foot pressure is the same, so hard to know when will happen.
Intermittent problems are hard to explain
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Old 12-18-2014, 06:40 PM
Diesel Don Diesel Don is offline
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Brake failure on 2012 diesel X5

Sounds like someone wants you dead! In all seriousness like LP said, I've tried holding up the parking brake before and it's a great alternative if needed. Try it out to get used to it.

Last edited by Diesel Don; 12-18-2014 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 12-18-2014, 07:37 PM
PAX5 PAX5 is offline
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OP's car is a 2012: did it have a recent brake flush done as part of the free maintenance?

I'm leaning towards air in the system ... How did the air get in? Perhaps the brake reservoir did not get topped off the way it was suppose to and air got trapped ... Once the car was picked up by the tow truck, it needed to be moved at an angle to be put on the flat bed ... air pocket/bubble(s) dislodged. The next day the car brakes work fine when the dealer tests it. Of course they also bled the brakes (correctly, this time) ...
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Old 09-20-2018, 05:36 PM
Novan4me Novan4me is offline
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did you find out what the problem was?

I am having a similar problem and it's very scary! Wondering if you found out what the issue was?



Quote:
Originally Posted by pdxbmwx5 View Post
I am new to this forum, but I want to see if anyone has any insight on an issue I am dealing with.

I have a 2012 X5 Diesel that started having brake issues last weekend. When I tried to brake, the brake pedal would go in about 80% of the way with no resistance and no braking. When I pushed the brakes in all the way, the car would slowly creep to a stop. It took 100+ feet to slow down from 25mph. When I realized that this made the car completely unsafe, I returned back home. The brakes functioned for a minute on my way back home and then they stopped working again.

I parked the car for the night and tried driving it the next day. The brake issue remained. I then had the car towed to the local BMW dealer when they opened on Monday. The dealer still has not been able to diagnose the problem, nor have they been able to replicate it. They bled the brake lines and preformed various tests, yet still have no answers. A representative from BMW North America even flew all the way out here to Oregon to look at the car and they still do not know what caused the brakes to fail.

Today the dealership had me come in a drive the car with a technician to see if I could replicate the problem. The brakes worked great and the issue seemed gone, however I am worried about driving the car if we don't know what caused the brakes to fail. There is huge liability associated with driving a car that may not brake when needed.

If anyone has any ideas or knowledge about how BMW NA deals with problems like this, I would greatly appreciate hearing it. Do I accept the car back and hope that the brakes don't fail? Or should I ask them to take the car back and eat the lease payments?
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  #18  
Old 11-06-2019, 01:07 AM
smikep smikep is offline
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Same problem on a 2014 X5 30d

I have had exactly the same problem on my 2014 X5 (30d engine).

It has been repaired twice and has failed a third time.

I was very lucky the third time that there wasn't serious injury.

In the instance of the first repair the dealer replaced the brake servo and the vacuum pipe. There was some close consultation with BMW after the second failure but it turns out that didn't help much.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to the root cause?
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