Stall when cold and in reverse. 2013 X5d - Page 2 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #26  
Old 03-04-2018, 10:36 AM
deptrai deptrai is offline
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In February, 2016 they added 1/2 quart of tranny fluid and it hasn't stalled since.

I'm still on the original (2013) battery.
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  #27  
Old 03-04-2018, 01:33 PM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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I am the 2nd owner of this vehicle. I purchased it in 02/2016 with 102,xxx miles on it. Current mileage is 131,xxx.

Since purchase, I have unfortunately needed to have a significant # of repairs done to this vehicle.

03/09/2016 @ 103685 - EGR valve replacement (recall)
03/22/2016 @ 104467 - Throttle valve/acuator, injectors 5 and 6, DDE control unit and battery replaced due to the fact that vehicle began stalling while driving with no warning at highway speeds
05/04/2016 @ 106351 - Vehicle begins misfiring again. Injector 4 failed. R/R injectors 1-4 and intake gaskets which had not been replaced by dealer when injectors 5 and 6 were replaced.
07/12/2016 @ 109581 - Vehicle begins misfiring again. Injector 6 failed. R/R injector 6 under warranty and replaced engine cowling. Dealer indicated that water may be getting into engine compartment causing injectors to fail.
04/08/2017 @ 122631 - R/R failed AC compressor
04/19/2017 @ 122xxx - Vehicle begins misfiring again. 4804 and 4BD9 codes. Dealer determined that injector 6 and DEF/SES pump failed. Injector and DEF/SES pump replaced.
12/18/2017 @ 130xxx - Vehicle begins to intermittently misfire / stall in reverse on cold starts
01/31/2018 @ 131111 - Dealer detects EGR fault (no CEL) and reprograms EGR computer. (I personally do not believe that this was related b/c as I understand it, an EGR fault w/o a CEL will typically reset itself)
02/15/2018 @ 131xxx - Dealer replaces Mass Airflow Meter / Sensor (no fault) --> dealers next best guess.

Engine still (today!) intermittently misfires / stalls in reverse on cold starts. The dealer has had the vehicle overnight on 3 separate occasions and have not been able to reproduce the issue however they do not have the ability to simulate the downgrade of my drive. I have recorded the vehicle stalling on 4 separate occasions and presented this info to the dealer.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ykV6QtfeIGRF0oG52

They have indicated that this "may" be due to CBU but I strongly disagree b/c I have no other issues with the vehicle that I would expect to have if there was a CBU issue and I'm not willing to throw more money at this problem without an actual root cause diagnosis.

I love the vehicle but need for this problem to be resolved. What else should I be asking my shop to do? What other testing can I do or what other data can I collect to assist?

Thanks in advance for any assistance or direction that this group is able to provide.
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  #28  
Old 03-04-2018, 01:40 PM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n1das View Post
This sounds like a classic case of fuel starvation due to a leak somewhere and BMW service techs relying totally on the computer to tell them what parts to throw it. A small leak in the fuel system in a diesel vehicle usually won't throw any codes because there's nothing monitored there to throw a code.

I suspect there's a slow leak in the fuel system somewhere allowing air to enter and causing the HPFP to lose prime while the car sits parked overnight. The stall occurs due to the HPFP running almost dry (!) but restarts OK because the system got reprimed during the brief running just before the stall.

The clueless BMW service techs aren't doing you any favors by throwing parts at it according to what the computer tells them.

Any signs of leaks around the fuel filter??

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
I would agree with the fuel starvation diagnosis if it consistently stalled at about the same run time each time. I can leave it run in the garage for 2 mins or 10 mins. Back it out the same way and as long as I'm on the flat portion at the top of the driveway, it runs just fine. As soon as I tip over and head down the hill is normally when it will misfire / stall. Sometimes it will misfire near the top and then stall at the bottom (just as I'm backing into the street). So far, it has not stalled when on a flat / level surface. Thanks for your response.
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  #29  
Old 03-04-2018, 02:07 PM
dzlbimmer dzlbimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmstevensiii View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by n1das View Post
This sounds like a classic case of fuel starvation due to a leak somewhere and BMW service techs relying totally on the computer to tell them what parts to throw it. A small leak in the fuel system in a diesel vehicle usually won't throw any codes because there's nothing monitored there to throw a code.

I suspect there's a slow leak in the fuel system somewhere allowing air to enter and causing the HPFP to lose prime while the car sits parked overnight. The stall occurs due to the HPFP running almost dry (!) but restarts OK because the system got reprimed during the brief running just before the stall.

The clueless BMW service techs aren't doing you any favors by throwing parts at it according to what the computer tells them.

Any signs of leaks around the fuel filter??

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
I would agree with the fuel starvation diagnosis if it consistently stalled at about the same run time each time. I can leave it run in the garage for 2 mins or 10 mins. Back it out the same way and as long as I'm on the flat portion at the top of the driveway, it runs just fine. As soon as I tip over and head down the hill is normally when it will misfire / stall. Sometimes it will misfire near the top and then stall at the bottom (just as I'm backing into the street). So far, it has not stalled when on a flat / level surface. Thanks for your response.
Is your car pooling water somewhere and shorting something when you incline? Garaged?
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  #30  
Old 03-04-2018, 02:59 PM
n1das n1das is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzlbimmer View Post
Is your car pooling water somewhere and shorting something when you incline? Garaged?
I was just thinking the same thing.


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  #31  
Old 03-04-2018, 07:55 PM
ard ard is offline
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has the AT Fluid ever been serviced?

Is the AT full and at the proper level???
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  #32  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:55 AM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by n1das View Post
I was just thinking the same thing.


Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
The vehicle is garaged overnight and there are no signs of any leaks.
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  #33  
Old 03-06-2018, 01:13 PM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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Originally Posted by ard View Post
has the AT Fluid ever been serviced?

Is the AT full and at the proper level???
I have not had the transmission serviced.
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  #34  
Old 03-06-2018, 02:35 PM
ard ard is offline
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others have reported AT fluid addressing their issue

Perhaps consider ATF service...you should have done it at 60k. Absolutely per BMW by 100k.
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #35  
Old 03-06-2018, 03:13 PM
smassey321 smassey321 is offline
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You may want to monitor your voltage just before the stall. https://www.amazon.com/TRADERPLUS-Ci...+voltage+meter

Also, believe it or not, a ZF 6 speed can cause the engine to stall when low on fluid. Cold fluid is at a lower level than warmer fluid. Downhill grade could also affect fluid pickup.
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  #36  
Old 03-06-2018, 03:25 PM
smassey321 smassey321 is offline
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I would be surprised if this was CBU. There is a test plan in ISTA that the dealer can run to determine if CBU is an issue.
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  #37  
Old 03-06-2018, 06:08 PM
ard ard is offline
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CBU isnt on my list at all


RM- does it do this no matter which direction you are parked, at start up, on the grade? fore or aft, acts the same?
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #38  
Old 03-07-2018, 08:42 AM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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I did see that the OP's issue was solved by adding fluid to the transmission. My local dealer has not recommended that the transmission be serviced nor is there anything in the manuals that I can find that reference the need for service.

Another 2 points to add to the discussion... when the vehicle stalls on the hill, it can immediately be restarted and shifted back into reverse. If this were a transmission pump pickup issue, would this be possible?

Also, when most vehicles and approaching a stop light/sign, when lifting off of the accelerator to decelerate, most vehicles coast quite easily and you need to brake to slow/stop. Since I've owned this vehicle, when lifting to decelerate, the vehicle slows quite quickly while downshifting and depending on distance, it will nearly come to a stop without the need to brake. This behavior is noticeably different from the BMW loaner X5, and other vehicles that I've owned or driven. I had generally attributed this behavior to the sportier dynamics of the X5, the weight of the vehicle, the wheel/tire combo (staggered 21's), and the adaptive drive learning algorithms. Now I'm not so sure because when I picked up the vehicle from the dealer after the Mass Airflow Meter/sensor replacement, the driving behavior had changed. The vehicle coasted much better and required more brake pressure to stop. The behavior has since reverted back to the way it was prior to the dealer visit. Does this support or contradict a possible low transmission fluid diagnosis?

Thanks in advance for your responses.
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  #39  
Old 03-07-2018, 09:15 AM
ard ard is offline
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Wait, your dealer didn't recommend a fluid change, and you didn't find anything 'in the manuals', so you will blithely never change your AT fluid?


Go for it.

I don't know if your stalling is an AT issue. It probably is NOT only a 'fluid' issue. What I DO know, without a doubt, is that you are way past due on an ATF service.

So while you worry about a 'magic bullet' diagnosis on the stall issue, you are ignoring the service on a $6000 component.

Same stall when pointed uphill and down? How exactly does the car stall? As soon as you shift into gear? When you try to accel?
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #40  
Old 03-07-2018, 10:33 AM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Wait, your dealer didn't recommend a fluid change, and you didn't find anything 'in the manuals', so you will blithely never change your AT fluid?


Go for it.

I don't know if your stalling is an AT issue. It probably is NOT only a 'fluid' issue. What I DO know, without a doubt, is that you are way past due on an ATF service.

So while you worry about a 'magic bullet' diagnosis on the stall issue, you are ignoring the service on a $6000 component.

Same stall when pointed uphill and down? How exactly does the car stall? As soon as you shift into gear? When you try to accel?
I am not against having the transmission service. Was simply not aware that service was required based on the info provided in the manuals and especially by the service department which is typically very eager to upsell additional services at any opportunity.

Regarding your question on how does it stall. It misfires/stalls when transitioning from a flat surface to a downhill grade in reverse and/or as I am backing down the hill. It sometimes appears to correlate to a modulation in brake pressure but sometimes not. It sometimes misfires without stalling and sometimes it misfires and stalls. The misfire is both felt and visible on the tachometer. So far, this has only happened while in reverse on a downhill grade.
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  #41  
Old 03-07-2018, 10:44 AM
FredoinSF FredoinSF is offline
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I did not go back and read everything but are we arguing about whether the transmission should be serviced at a reasonable interval? Short answer is yes.
BMW went to a 100k mile transmission service recommendation sometime during the 2012 model year. While owner's manual will not have that documented on car delivered prior to that, this is a soft admission by BMW that lifetime fluid was marketing fairy dust and not conducive to long term durability.
ZF, the manufacturer of that transmission, has a lower recommended service interval of 50-75k mile range depending on service demands. They recommend using their fluid designed for the transmission and only that fluid. That's the recommendation I went with.
Dealers won't do a fluid replacement on a transmission that already exhibits issues or one with high miles because they want zero chance of someone coming back to claim the fluid service caused the transmission to fail.
Incidentally, Toyota / Lexus has 30k mile service intervals for the transmission and 5k engine oil the last time I looked at their service manual. One wonders why those cars are known to last forever.
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  #42  
Old 03-07-2018, 11:03 AM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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Thank you for the additional info. I was not aware of the ZF recommended service interval. I will schedule the service appointment.
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  #43  
Old 03-07-2018, 11:14 AM
dzlbimmer dzlbimmer is offline
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If you are getting drag on deceleration and it's related, it is starting (continuing?) to seem like you may have lubrication issue in the transmission. Does the car ever stall nose down or only nose up?
whats your fuel economy like?
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  #44  
Old 03-07-2018, 04:17 PM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dzlbimmer View Post
If you are getting drag on deceleration and it's related, it is starting (continuing?) to seem like you may have lubrication issue in the transmission. Does the car ever stall nose down or only nose up?
whats your fuel economy like?
The vehicle has never stalled nose down. Only stalls intermittently when idling it out of the garage and down driveway (hill) in reverse on cold start.

The BMW onboard computer says that I'm getting 20.2, down from 20.7 when purchased. By my calculations, I'm getting 17.2 mpg on avg for 2018, down from 21 mpg in 2016.
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  #45  
Old 03-07-2018, 04:22 PM
35dx5 35dx5 is offline
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I think I read in a past post that an abs sensor wire can cause an issue like this, the sensor pick up was to close to its sensor ring, but that thread was having codes set.
I agree to do more voltage checks. Maybe a small piece of soldier floating around inside of an ecu.
Sure been a lot of parts thrown at this.
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  #46  
Old 03-07-2018, 10:46 PM
deptrai deptrai is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmstevensiii View Post
I did see that the OP's issue was solved by adding fluid to the transmission. My local dealer has not recommended that the transmission be serviced nor is there anything in the manuals that I can find that reference the need for service.

Another 2 points to add to the discussion... when the vehicle stalls on the hill, it can immediately be restarted and shifted back into reverse. If this were a transmission pump pickup issue, would this be possible?
My local dealer never recommended that my transmission be serviced. Only after opening a PUMA case did the BMW Engineers in Germany recommend adding a half quart of fluid.

Every time my X5 stalled backing out of my driveway I was able to immediately restart it and continue backing down my driveway.
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  #47  
Old 03-07-2018, 11:04 PM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deptrai View Post
My local dealer never recommended that my transmission be serviced. Only after opening a PUMA case did the BMW Engineers in Germany recommend adding a half quart of fluid.

Every time my X5 stalled backing out of my driveway I was able to immediately restart it and continue backing down my driveway.
1. I was speaking about 'transmission service' as a standard service action, not specifically to fix the stalling issue.

2. i did see you posted this as a resolution quite some time ago.

3. I asked about service to get an idea of 'did someone not fully fill it' as well as 'how full is it right now'

4. BMW recommends ATF fluid service very 100k. I have no doubt that few (or no) BMW dealers recommend ATF service.... its all downside for them. By the time they have waited 100k, bad things start happening to transmissions that have been neglected- so if they change fluid, owners blame them when it fails 10k later. So they recommend "best to not do anything"
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #48  
Old 03-25-2018, 04:26 PM
rmstevensiii rmstevensiii is offline
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Update:

After the recommendation that I check the transmission fluid level, I did some additional research on the differences between the official BMW service recommendations and the recommendations of the members of the forum. After reviewing the info from ZF, the "Lifetime Maintenance Schedule" post by Mike Miller, and discussing the situation with a local mechanic who specializes in European auto repair, I fully agree with the recommendations that were provided here.

I had the transmission service performed on 03/13 and so far there have been no additional stalls on cold starts. If there are no additional stutter/stalling issues for the next 2-3 weeks, I will consider this issue resolved.

Thanks for the advice!
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  #49  
Old 01-21-2019, 12:28 PM
dtrambitas dtrambitas is offline
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Stalled after cold start

Hi

I have experienced the same symptom,it was the first time tough...This morning,was very cold, about 10 degrees Fahrenheit the car started and ran for 10 Sec then stalled on the driveway with the "Engine malfunction" message.I restarted and drove it to work,about 15 miles with no problems.The battery was replaced a year ago and never showed this issue.Anybody find the real cause?
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  #50  
Old 01-21-2019, 02:31 PM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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"Engine Malfunction" set a Diagnostic Trouble Code that we need to know.
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