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Old 06-29-2017, 12:34 PM
Argon Argon is offline
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Lightbulb The definition of 'muscle car' has been lost.

Car and driver calls the excellent new Camaro SS 1LE a muscle car. This is in direct contradiction to the actual definition of a muscle car. In fact, the SS 1LE can turn and brake on par with an M4. Muricaaa

We don't call that a muscle car, do we.

Actual muscle cars, based on the definition from their era: A plain family car with a disproportionately powerful engine under the hood.

True muscle cars are good at accelerating, but not turning, or stopping. true muscle cars are also reasonably affordable (sorry Hellcat).

An example of a current muscle car would be the 2017 turbocharged Subaru Forester. It's got a fairly quick 0-60, but good luck tracking it. You'll get an awful lap of it heeling over, right before you get brutalized by brake fade.

Sounds a lot like a sixties muscle car with four wheel drums and soft springs.

Also, remember that the average buyer buys a FWD box of a crossover. Gone are the days of readily available RWD.
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Old 07-12-2017, 09:55 AM
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:07 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Modern cars are more competent in all aspects. The worst modern sedan handles better than any Mustang or Camaro from the late sixties to early seventies. I wold say that in this context a Charger SRT is the modern muscle car.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:24 AM
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Or the Challenger save possibly the Hellcat or whatever it is called as I believe they actually can turn...
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Old 07-17-2017, 03:37 PM
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Words change meaning all the time. Consider all the four-door "coupes" out there. Literally mind-blowing.
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Old 07-18-2017, 05:12 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Don't forget M5's and M6's. They're also muscle cars... really good ones.
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Old 07-19-2017, 07:17 AM
Argon Argon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwsqbm View Post
Words change meaning all the time. Consider all the four-door "coupes" out there. Literally mind-blowing.
But the four door coupes are not coupes.

If you don't believe me, read this scenario:

You own an M6 'gran coupe', it gets stolen while you are in a shop getting coffee. You see the thief driving away. You call the cops. "A guy just stole my car, on main street, a metallic blue BMW ------."

I bet you wouldn't call it a coupe.
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Old 07-25-2017, 03:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argon View Post
But the four door coupes are not coupes.

If you don't believe me, read this scenario:

You own an M6 'gran coupe', it gets stolen while you are in a shop getting coffee. You see the thief driving away. You call the cops. "A guy just stole my car, on main street, a metallic blue BMW ------."

I bet you wouldn't call it a coupe.
Mine would be a two door, so I would call it a coupe.
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Old 07-25-2017, 08:00 PM
MoparJim MoparJim is offline
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The definition has NEVER been completely agreed upon, just like the opinion on what the first musclecar really was. A good argument for the '48 Rocket 88 can be made as well as the 1955 C300. Others think the '64 GTO (talk about poor handling and brakes) was the first. Another argument can be made for my buddy's '35 (I think it's a '35) Ford Roadster with factory aluminum heads on the flathead and manual trans (also once owned by Dennis Wilson). Some folks think my 340 Dart convertible doesn't count because it's a "compact", while some others think that Mustangs and Barracudas don't count because they are "pony" cars.
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Old 07-26-2017, 02:40 PM
Argon Argon is offline
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^^^ What do you think about the deliberate imbalance part?

I know that a GT350 is far from imbalanced. It can stop and corner with the best. You can thrash one for a full tank and still be able to brake.

Compare that to a 65 GTO that is stopped with DRUMS.
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Old 07-26-2017, 04:37 PM
MoparJim MoparJim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Argon View Post
I know that a GT350 is far from imbalanced.
According to Road Test magazine the '66 Barracuda Formula S handled as well as the GT350, but lacked the horsepower (235 to 305) and commented that the ride quality of the Plymouth was considerably better.
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Old 07-26-2017, 08:51 PM
Argon Argon is offline
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^^^I was talking about the new one with the DOHC V8.
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Old 07-27-2017, 01:32 PM
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Actual Definitions from the Web...

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/muscle%20car
Quote:
any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving
http://www.musclecarclub.com/muscle-car-definition/
Quote:
Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:

A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on “regular” production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.
Examples: Buick GS, Chevrolete Chevelle SS, Dodge Charger R/T, Ford Torino/Cobra, Plymouth GTX, Plymouth Road Runner, Oldsmobile 442, Pontiac GTO
By this definition, M5 and E90/92 M3 qualify

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car
Quote:
Muscle car is an American term used to refer to a variety of high-performance automobiles.[1] The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines muscle cars as "any of a group of American-made 2-door sports cars with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving."[2] A large V8 engine is fitted in a 2 or 4 door, rear wheel drive, family-style full-size car designed for four or more passengers. Sold at an affordable price, muscle cars are intended for street use and occasional drag racing.[3][4][5][6]
So this implies that they can't corner, but doesn't prohibit them from being able to corner...

Quote:
...They are distinct from two-seat sports cars and expensive 2+2 GTs intended for high-speed touring and road racing.
Which excludes M6, Z8, Corvette, Viper, etc.

I think the M models in the BMW line are perfect examples of the European interpretation of the muscle car.
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Old 07-27-2017, 04:30 PM
Argon Argon is offline
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^^^ The affordable part though. The M2 is the only one that falls definitively within the muscle car price range, and it's the most balanced M car that's been built in a while.

It has enough tire for its horsepower, and enough brake for its mass. Those are not muscle car characteristics.
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Old 08-04-2017, 01:18 PM
BHi3 BHi3 is offline
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Most cars are built with folded sheet-metal. The sheet-metal floorpan is twirled up on the sides to make rocker panels, a K-frame is bolted on for engine and suspension, and the floorpan is often the primary structure for the suspension on the other end of the car.

A muscle car is a folded-sheet-metal car with a high-performance V8 engine. The number one spark plug is over the front axle line. In fact body-on-frame could be found on some muscle cars. (A stock car takes the frame and throws away the OEM body. Then a roll cage is added to the frame and that makes a universal stock car chassis. For instance a current short track stock car design might be based on a 1967 Chevelle frame and front suspension.)

But both the Corvette and the Evora have a rectangular-tube chassis with lightweight SMC bodywork.

Ferrari, Lamborghini, R8, and others have rectangular-tube chassis with a metal bodywork sub-frame bolted on the chassis.

The Alfa Romeo 4C has a chassis with a structural carbon-fiber mid-section along with a metal frame section for the engine and rear suspension.
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