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Old 01-31-2018, 10:26 PM
COdieselx5 COdieselx5 is offline
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Diesel Exhaust issues possibly getting worse

I have a 2009 E70 x5 35d approaching 90k miles.
It lived in So Cal a little over a year ago, when it went into the BMW dealership for scheduled maintenance and check engine light.
Regarding engine codes, our invoice said "FAULTY ACTIVE TANK, SENSORS SHORT CIRCUITED, CANNOT ACCURATELY METER DEF AMOUNT, CAUSED SCR TO FAIL."
And on another line item, "SECONDARY FAULT FOR DPF, CLOGGED, DUE TO SHORT DISTANCE DRIVING, PERFORMED REGEN" though we all know nothing is short distance in Los Angeles.
To remedy these, they replaced the active tank, exhaust pipe w/ catalytic, and nox sensor (which?) to the tune of $5500.

A month after this service, Jan 2017, the car moved to Colorado, with no check engine light.
A few months went by and the check engine light came on. We brought it to a reputable BMW mechanic 8/17 to check it and for regular maintenance.
Codes:
4A1E (P0676) GLOW PLUG, CYLINDER 6, ACTIVATION
4A6F (P066B)GLOW CONTROL UNIT
4A1F (P067F) GLOW CONTROL UNIT
4B81 (P0402) EXHAUST-GAS RECIRCULATION-RATE CONTROL, CONTROL DEVIATION

They recommended replace all glow plugs and module before winter. Brought it back in Dec for oil change and to replace two bad glow plugs (They said the glow module tested good) and came up with more codes:
4a6f - glow control unit output stage cylinder 1 faulty
4a1f - Glow control unit output stage cylinder 6 faulty
4bf5 - Nox sensor before denox cat signal nitrogen oxide
43e2 - throttle valve actuator activation
4530 - charge air pressure control deviation
480a - particulate filter system
459ch/17820 undocumented code

In addition, the car/computer had begun to indicate "engine malfunction reduced output" message sometimes the first acceleration out of the driveway, and sometimes when trying to maintain cruising speed uphill, usually in cold weather. The engine never actually lost much power but mpg would momentarily spike as the throttle let off slightly. This always goes away after a few seconds.

The local BMW shop now recommends replace nox sensor ($900), replace DPF ($3300), replace glow module and other 4 glow plugs, and they recommended an engine vac for all the soot, which i know is just going to push more junk to the DPF.

What can you guys recommend for me here, esp. AU Pete having been through all this per https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=917033&page=3 ? Replace EGR Thermostat? And glow plug control module? It is fairly cold here in dec and jan. We get a rough idle after very cold start for about 8 seconds.

I feel like DPF regens have not been happening for quite some time. Also seems like mpg is down 2-3 points. Car runs great otherwise. Daily commute is 25 miles each way at 60mph.

The dealership work is under its two year warranty but we live 4 or 5 hours from the nearest dealership.

Can I bypass or eliminate the DPF somehow?

Someone mentioned the scr/active tank work may be under the original warranty. How to get reimbursed?
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2018, 10:28 PM
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Check to see if you're eligible for reimbursement here:

http://www.bmw-rp.com/production/bmw...bmw_portal.nsf
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:34 PM
COdieselx5 COdieselx5 is offline
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Awesome. Thank You hsindogg
Quote:
Originally Posted by hsindogg View Post
Check to see if you're eligible for reimbursement here:

http://www.bmw-rp.com/production/bmw...bmw_portal.nsf
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:40 PM
ard ard is offline
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Once a glow plug goes bad, you should replace the controller. Period.
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

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OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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Old 01-31-2018, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hsindogg View Post
Check to see if you're eligible for reimbursement here:

http://www.bmw-rp.com/production/bmw...bmw_portal.nsf
Does Canada have the same program? Google didn't turn up anything
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  #6  
Old 02-01-2018, 09:46 AM
n1das n1das is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
Once a glow plug goes bad, you should replace the controller. Period.
OP: What is the coolant temperature at? Does it ever get above 60C to allow regenerations to occur? Has the thermostat ever been replaced? The thermostat's design temperature is 88C. The reported coolant temperature should read around 89-91C where it is measured at the outlet from the engine. The thermostat is toast if the reported temperature after a full warmup is around 75C or lower.

A failed thermostat causes the engine to run under-temperature all the time and will lead to the issues you are having. The thermostat gradually fails in the open position and causes the engine to run cooler than it should and will prevent DPF regenerations from happening. It will also lead to premature glowplug failures. The problems basically snowball due to the engine running under-temp all the time.

Good luck.
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Why DIESEL is better: (from wxmanCCM)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home
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Old 02-01-2018, 10:03 AM
ard ard is offline
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+1 on the above.

OP, you need to monitor your engine temp when driving, and report back. Search if you need to see how. (You unlock the OBD display and read it off the dash)

Could be the root cause of much of your issues.....
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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Old 02-01-2018, 12:58 PM
n1das n1das is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ard View Post
+1 on the above.

OP, you need to monitor your engine temp when driving, and report back. Search if you need to see how. (You unlock the OBD display and read it off the dash)

Could be the root cause of much of your issues.....
Sadly, most BMW dealer service departments are simply parts changers and will miss this. They will want to keep throwing parts at it at the customer's expense.
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2012 E70 X5 35d

Why DIESEL is better: (from wxmanCCM)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home

Last edited by n1das; 02-01-2018 at 03:57 PM.
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  #9  
Old 02-03-2018, 11:47 AM
COdieselx5 COdieselx5 is offline
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Replace whole water pump for $70 more?
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Old 02-03-2018, 03:43 PM
COdieselx5 COdieselx5 is offline
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Or are we talking just the EGR thermostat and not the main thermostat??

Last edited by COdieselx5; 02-03-2018 at 03:49 PM. Reason: To be clear
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Old 02-03-2018, 03:50 PM
Michael47 Michael47 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COdieselx5 View Post
Or are we talking just the EGR thermostat?
There's a thermostat on the EGR?

I think the thermostat in question is in the engine coolant hoses. 80-90C is about 200C below EGR temperatures.
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:13 PM
Badsmerf Badsmerf is offline
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Check your temp and report back.
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Old 02-03-2018, 08:35 PM
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.
Do you know how to check your coolant temps?
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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Old 02-03-2018, 10:28 PM
dzlbimmer dzlbimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COdieselx5 View Post
Or are we talking just the EGR thermostat and not the main thermostat??
Water pump, main thermostat, trans heat exchanger thermostat (#17107558267) are the three parts in that system to replace at the same time.
$70 sounds like an aftermarket pump, I would be sure to use highest quality parts in all maint/repairs. Or $70 labor? to do the pump I think sounds fair. Supposedly the gasket is a pain. OEM pump is at least 130 at a few online retailers.

EGR thermostat is for non-US models.

480 (dpf blocked) is a precursor to 481 (dpf heavily blocked). It looks like you may not be able order a regeneration until these codes are gone, and the fix may be to drive at high speed for an extended period until you can order a regeneration(special tool). Searching "BMW M57 480 481" (or 480a 481a) should point you to some good information. Secondary failure is 481a. I would be suspect of your exhaust manifold pressure sensor hose being clogged (metal section) as it is in the same area and affected by soot (though a non issue compared with current situation).

You will go crazy and broke trying to fix this if you are having low coolant temp issue, which is hugely common in this age and mileage. This failure also requires your glow plug system to work overtime to "help get you to operating temp".

Last edited by dzlbimmer; 02-03-2018 at 10:48 PM.
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  #15  
Old 02-04-2018, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by dzlbimmer View Post
EGR thermostat is for non-US models.
Are you sure? I recall having it replaced on my 35d last year, invoice part # is 13-62-7-805-606.
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Old 02-04-2018, 10:33 AM
COdieselx5 COdieselx5 is offline
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Thanks for the help, guys. I think I have figured out how to check coolant temp with the hidden OBD menu. I think it is parameter #7. Question: Do i manipulate this menu while the car is running? The instructions said to not start the car. Am I driving and then checking quickly after shutdown?

I am still confused about EGR thermostat (13-62-7-805-606), the transmission heat exchanger thermostat (17-10-7-558-267) and the main thermostat (11-51-7-805-811). Question: which one has the temp sensor that is telling the CPU to stay in warm up mode?

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/11517805811/

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...l/11517801063/

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/13627805606/

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...t/17107558267/

Last edited by COdieselx5; 02-04-2018 at 12:26 PM. Reason: For clarity
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  #17  
Old 02-04-2018, 11:55 AM
robnitro robnitro is offline
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That link is the egr temp sensor which reports to the dde, not a thermostat. The egr cooler has a bypass valve vac actuated that adjusts whether to cool or not the egr gases. We don't have an egr cooler thermostat on usa/can models.

The coolant temp sensor that the dde uses to determine temperature is somewhere on the block. The main thermostat is what can make it stay too low.

The transmission thermostat opens to cool the trans fluid when it gets too hot. Not sure if they wear out like the main one but i replaced mine while I was doing the main and water pump.

Last edited by robnitro; 02-04-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 02-04-2018, 12:10 PM
edycol edycol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COdieselx5 View Post
Thanks for the help, guys. I think I have figured out how to check coolant temp with the hidden OBD menu. I think it is parameter #7. Question: Do i manipulate this menu while the car is running? The instructions said to not start the car. Am I driving and then checking quickly after shutdown?

I am still confused about EGR thermostat (13-62-7-805-606), the transmission heat exchanger thermostat (17-10-7-558-267) and the main thermostat (11-51-7-805-811). Question: which one has the temp sensor that is telling the CPU to stay in warm up mode?

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/11517805811/
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...l/11517801063/
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...r/13627805606/
https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-...t/17107558267/


Fallow these steps:

If your temperature drops below 80 on hwy it is time to change main thermostat.
Forget everything else.




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  #19  
Old 02-04-2018, 12:41 PM
COdieselx5 COdieselx5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robnitro View Post
That link...
There were four links - two thermostats, a sensor and the pump.

I think I will try to change the main thermostat myself asap. I only have 2 indy bmw mechanics near me and they were unaware of this common issue. They hate when you talk about forums and self-troubleshooting. I am a mechanic (inboard/outboard) and I think I can pull this off. Then I will have them quote me for jobs requiring special tools after we see what clears up.

I will get you guys temp numbers in the next couple days. Only driving it if we have to, until we get a thermostat.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:38 PM
dzlbimmer dzlbimmer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COdieselx5 View Post
There were four links - two thermostats, a sensor and the pump.

I think I will try to change the main thermostat myself asap. I only have 2 indy bmw mechanics near me and they were unaware of this common issue. They hate when you talk about forums and self-troubleshooting. I am a mechanic (inboard/outboard) and I think I can pull this off. Then I will have them quote me for jobs requiring special tools after we see what clears up.

I will get you guys temp numbers in the next couple days. Only driving it if we have to, until we get a thermostat.
You'll want to add an OBD reading app to your smartphone, Carly will allow you to request regenerations. Lots of people have lots of preferences and there are many threads related to that. Do some quick reading, find one thats best, and break free from your indies except the stuff you want to pay them for.

Thermostat is not super difficult, note: fan flap, egr bolts, torque sequence EGR cooler, AC belt.

Hidden menu for coolant ends at #7. You can set this anytime after starting car and it should stay up until you touch it or shut the car off.

The warm up mode request is ultimately from a value of the coolant temperature sensor operating under 75*.
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Old 02-04-2018, 01:39 PM
ard ard is offline
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why not find out if you have a problem first?

read the temps, THEN order the parts

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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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Old 02-04-2018, 02:15 PM
edycol edycol is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COdieselx5 View Post
There were four links - two thermostats, a sensor and the pump.

I think I will try to change the main thermostat myself asap. I only have 2 indy bmw mechanics near me and they were unaware of this common issue. They hate when you talk about forums and self-troubleshooting. I am a mechanic (inboard/outboard) and I think I can pull this off. Then I will have them quote me for jobs requiring special tools after we see what clears up.

I will get you guys temp numbers in the next couple days. Only driving it if we have to, until we get a thermostat.
First of all, get carly for BMW. That will allow you to monitor bunch of parameters and do regens etc.
Second, check your temperature before ordering parts, like ARD said.
BMW indy not aware of thermostat issues on diesels? That means that they do not have proper knowledge. I have Indy guy here and he went to maintenance course specifically for BMW diesels. He does that for other cars. He went once I bought X5 as he figured more people with diesels will be showing up. They explained them there all issues with M57 engine, from cracked EGR cooler, SCR issues to thermostat failures and glow plug controller, partition issues and injector number 5 failures.
So, those Indy guys are thinking they know it all and not keeping up with their education. That would be like finishing medical school and not reading medical journals to acquire new knowledge.
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  #23  
Old 02-04-2018, 03:13 PM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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Originally Posted by edycol View Post
So, those Indy guys are thinking they know it all and not keeping up with their education. That would be like finishing medical school and not reading medical journals to acquire new knowledge.
In the US, physician licensing requires CME peer reviewed and accredited. I read medical journals in the fields in which I have interest.
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Old 02-04-2018, 05:28 PM
dzlbimmer dzlbimmer is offline
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Reading between the lines from ard and edycol, order the parts ahead of time mail order. Dont expect your local parts house to carry these parts same day, some parts not at all. The grudging drive or call to your nearest dealer left me in no better scenario.

If you are having concerns about the car and are considering dumping it based on your soon to have knowledge, just swap the main thermostat. If you are relatively committed I would do all 3 cooling parts while you are in there.

Assuming you will find you are running at low temp, I would get fixed and up to temp, then get regenerating immediately. Throttle valve fault is likely a victim of running cool, but could/will block regeneration. After regenerating, then intake off for glow plugs, module, and possibly CBU cleaning if the car has 481'd once and 480'd again after that. Consider replacing MAP sensor and checking exhaust pressure tube.

Last edited by dzlbimmer; 02-04-2018 at 06:00 PM. Reason: throttle valve info
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Old 02-05-2018, 09:04 AM
COdieselx5 COdieselx5 is offline
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OK wife drove it to town today (20 miles @ 60mph) Coolant temp never got above 67.

I am going to order the thermostat today. I didn't see any belts that had to be removed for thermostat change in any of the videos I watched. What is the AC belt? I wasn't going to do the water pump myself because I thought it required special tool to get one of the pulleys loose.
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