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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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Old 01-14-2020, 05:22 AM
SamD SamD is offline
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Insurance Coverage to prevent the SHAFT

After reading through what I call the "Christmas" post from Joe-BMW in Boston, it got me thinking about insurance coverage AGAIN. I carry full coverage on my '01 540i, but I've always known that it's not enough should someone slam into the side of the car, or the car is otherwise damaged beyond what the cheap-arse insurance companies think the car is worth.

With that in mind, I'm opening a discussion to explore other insurance options to protect our investments in these aging cars that ALL of us have put more money into than any insurance adjuster is going to agree they're worth. I've got $5500 in the purchase of my car in late 2015, and I've easily added another $5000 in clutch, suspension, and cooling system work. I've added new headliner material, A/B/C pillar covering, new undercarriage covers, and the list goes on. When I add it up in my head, I come up with something like $13,000 that I have in this car, and what I see happening to Joe is heartbreaking and want to try to find a way to prevent this from happening to the rest of us.

So, what are our options? My parents have some sort of special "collector car" policy on a 1959 Porsche 356 that my grandfather purchased new and had delivered to this country, so I'll find out about that and report back. I'm sure there are some sort of stated value policies out there, but what are our options? Let's work together to find the best policy we can folks...
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:31 AM
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Good thread Sam. Just full disclosure - I definitely had options, but none were appealing to me. I don't want a salvage title car and I am not sure the math would have worked, which means them giving me a value, me buying it back for a value, paying the shop to fix it and walking away in the black or even. My car is certainly fixable to someone resourceful.

None of these options were appealing to me. I still have not received an offer from the insurance company. Haven't heard from them for a week. I will use this thread to post the details as I receive them.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:52 AM
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One can always self-insure. Buy a note of your value of the car.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:54 AM
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Please expand on that thought Doug...
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:57 AM
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Ultm8drvnmchn Ultm8drvnmchn is offline
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There are policies that will do "agreed value". I have one of these policies on my 90 ZR-1 If the car were to be totaled, I get a check for the agreed value on the policy regardless of book value. I imagine that kind of policy might be available for our 5's....
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:20 AM
SamD SamD is offline
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Originally Posted by Ultm8drvnmchn View Post
There are policies that will do "agreed value". I have one of these policies on my 90 ZR-1 If the car were to be totaled, I get a check for the agreed value on the policy regardless of book value. I imagine that kind of policy might be available for our 5's....
What kind of money does it cost you above a normal "full coverage" policy? In other words, if your standard full coverage policy is $750 per year for a car valued at $20,000, but you wish to insure it for $40,000, does the "agreed value" policy cost you $1500?
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:23 AM
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Like in Eminent Domain, who sets the value?

Take the second party out of the equation, and set the value yourself through self-insurance. Determine your value for your property. Go to the bank and buy a CD of that value. You may have to take out a loan. The cost of that loan is effectively your self-insurance payment. It will be expensive because you are not sharing the risk and you are bearing the cost yourself.
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Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

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Old 01-14-2020, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamD View Post
What kind of money does it cost you above a normal "full coverage" policy? In other words, if your standard full coverage policy is $750 per year for a car valued at $20,000, but you wish to insure it for $40,000, does the "agreed value" policy cost you $1500?
There is no agreement in "your wish." Study just a bit of contract law - like what you might find at Wikipedia.

Insurance is like gambling. The house always wins, it's their business. Worse, insurance is like gambling and betting against yourself. You always lose.

Compare the common requirement to post a liability bond. The state sets its minimum value and you put up the bond.
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Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.

Last edited by Doug Huffman; 01-14-2020 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:29 AM
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Book values on these cars is low. In MA, you can have a vehicle appraised and insure for stated value. This is used for collector cars...not sure if the E39 falls into that category. Just know, the money you're putting into your car is for your driving pleasure...you will not be monetarily reimbursed...it comes out in the value of what you do to your car and the pleasure you derive. These cars are not for the budget conscience. Enjoy!
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
There is no agreement in "your wish." Study just a bit of contract law - like what you might find at Wikipedia.
The wish would become the contract if a policy was written for that amount and assuming the figures were agreeable.

How does my buying a CD at the bank really create an insurance policy? Am I not buying the car twice if I use that CD to cover the cost of replacing it say at the point in time where I've spent 3/4 or more of that on insurance payments? Yes, I know we can get into a discussion of "at what point?" and "when does it make sense?" that one way is better than another (i.e. buying a commercial policy or setting aside money to self-insure)...
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:35 AM
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I have reasonable insurance from a very tolerant insurance company - ACUITY. It will hurt to lose my BMW, but I'll just go down and buy another and pray that I am as fortunate with it as with this. Repairs are just the cost of doing business - with BMW. In a few months the note will be retired and the payments will be ear marked for repairs.
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Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:38 AM
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Why not call it a savings account for your next car? See, I think that you are anticipating - PLANNING - on making claims and taking value from where you may not have put it.
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Scepticism and Animal Faith (1923)
Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

Eschew eristical argumentation. I am responsible for what I write, not for your understanding of it.

Last edited by Doug Huffman; 01-14-2020 at 06:40 AM.
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Old 01-14-2020, 06:48 AM
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I'm far from planning on anything, hedging against something I can't control might be a better way to describe it. We're not really speaking the same language here anyway; I'm looking for a discussion regarding commercially available policies for stated value I suppose. I'm not really interested in a philosophical discussion about self-insurance and utility/cost of doing business/where the value is...
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:07 AM
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The answer is Hagerty. Both my cars are covered with agreed to values. And the cost is almost exactly the same as I was paying State Farm for traditional coverage. Call them and see what they say. Grundy is another possibility.

However, I don't have a daily commute and I'm getting old. These help on the insurance front.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:15 AM
SamD SamD is offline
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That's what I'm looking for Edgy; thank you. Hagerty's is where my parents insure that 1959 356 Porsche too... Do they handle all sides of the auto insurance equation (liability, comp, collision)?
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:30 AM
theWalkinator theWalkinator is offline
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I love my 540i but in my opinion, do not become too attached to the car, I dropped full coverage 5 years ago knowing that the car isn't worth much so keeping full coverage make no sense to me, I do all the maintenance and repairs myself and probably have put more than 4K if not closing 5k in all maintenance and repairs, few set of rubbers, wheels in my 9 years of ownership. I just spent over 1k for timing chain guide job a month ago. I bought the car for 6.3k so over 10k total invested, but in the end, a 18 year old bimmer with 150k miles is probably only worth of 2.5k ~ 3k. What I end up doing is buying the another beater, in this case, a 2006 Saab 9-3 Aero V6 turbo with stick shift for cheap, not much wrong with the car, just need to replace brakes and rotors, 2 rear control arms and it is little zippy car, great power, fun to drive and handling great and cheap to insure too, so when one car is down for service/repair, I always have another car to use. This make more sense to me.
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Old 01-14-2020, 07:46 AM
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Hagerty' s is SCCA insurance partner.

In March 1983 I put on, as race chairman, the first National Points race of the season in Savannah, Georgia. I had to abandon the race after an early practice session. I spent the next year fighting with drivers that thought I owed them refunds as though it was individual coverage and not event coverage.
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Scepticism is the chastity of the intellect, and it is shameful to surrender it too soon or to the first comer: there is nobility in preserving it coolly and proudly through long youth, until at last, in the ripeness of instinct and discretion, it can be safely exchanged for fidelity and happiness.
(The Works of George Santayana p. 65)

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Old 01-14-2020, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Do they handle all sides of the auto insurance equation (liability, comp, collision)?
Yes
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamD View Post
What kind of money does it cost you above a normal "full coverage" policy? In other words, if your standard full coverage policy is $750 per year for a car valued at $20,000, but you wish to insure it for $40,000, does the "agreed value" policy cost you $1500?
Well, Im not sure of your age and driving record, so I can only speak for my own situation... In my case my ZR-1 has an agreed value of $25,000. and I think I pay a total of around $300./yr Thats not over and above, thats the annual amount I pay. I have no mileage limits either. It is classified as a 3rd car in the family though, so not sure if that has something to do with it. I also have 3 homes insured with the same company... so there are discounts involved there as well.

You do not need a specialty insurance outfit. Your regular agent can and should be able to handle it for you.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:59 AM
CSMBlack-540i CSMBlack-540i is offline
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in my viewpoint, it would depend on the cost of the added cost of agreed value over book value over the course of having the car.

I mean if the difference between agreed value and book value keeps increasing as the car depreciates, doesn't the premium go up yearly?

After all, you need to take into account the added premium. If it costs an extra $250/yr for the agreed value and nothing happens after 4 yrs, you've paid $1000 more which would offset any lower book value.

And those living in major metro areas will have insurance premiums much higher than those in the boonies.

Plus most financial gurus don't recommend carrying comp/collision on 20+ yr old cars. It all comes down to the numbers involved.

Last edited by CSMBlack-540i; 01-14-2020 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 01-14-2020, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
I mean if the difference between agreed value and book value keeps increasing as the car depreciates, doesn't the premium go up yearly?
Good points, but values for clean M cars are increasing, as documented regularly by Hagerty. So for me it's a no-brainer.

Quote:
You do not need a specialty insurance outfit. Your regular agent can and should be able to handle it for you.
Not in my case. I tried for agreed value with State Farm and they refused, after wasting a good bit of my time.
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Old 01-14-2020, 05:02 PM
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If anyone actually is able to get agreed value insurance on an E39 please let us know! I have been wondering about this and would love to explore this possibility.
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Old 01-14-2020, 08:14 PM
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Couldn't you get your car appraised by the insurance company?

I have Progressive direct I remember when submitting the details an option to list 'aftermarket' parts.

If you still have receipts im sure you could pass any of that additional work you had done as aftermarket.
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Old 01-14-2020, 09:05 PM
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Collector vehicle policies with "agreed value" are typically for "pleasure driving" cars, used on weekends, or for taking to car club events. These policies generally are not for "daily drivers" and will have statements that do not permit the car to be used in that manner. That is why the prices are pretty reasonable for the amount of coverage given. I have always used "agreed value" policies on Ferraris I have owned and have found Hagerty (at least in the Seattle market) to be about double what Grundy Worldwide charges. Most do NOT require any appraisal, as the rate is determined based on your market and what value you want. Collector policies typically require a garage, proof of a daily driver, and usually some photos of the car and garage. Sometimes there is a mileage limit. But every company has different requirements, so not always the case. For example, Grundy Worldwide has no mileage exclusion.

To the OP, definitely check around. Most regular insurance companies offer "agreed value" policies for a daily driver, but charge an arm and a leg. Again, you will have to do a lot of calling and checking to find a decent rate, as every company has different rates in different markets. Obviously Edgy36-39 is getting a good deal on Hagerty where he lives, yet they are super expensive where I live.
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Old 01-15-2020, 12:22 AM
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Nfs021 Nfs021 is offline
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After Joe's unfortunate incident and me getting into an accident while driving my mother's car back in November (which actually would've been my car had it been running at the time). I have started to wonder about this stuff with my M5. I mean it's no garage queen at almost 104k miles. But I'd hate to imagine how low-balled I'd get by insurance if it were to get wrecked. Like 540 M-Sport I also live in a large city. Even though Portland is not quite as big as Seattle, accidents and insurance rates are just as high as opposed to those out in or near the boondocks. I'm paying full coverage with a $500 deductible on it right now and it is my daily driver. Luckily though I have friends and family that let me use any of their other cars if the beast is out of order.

My sister has a 2004 xterra that she uses for going to the mountain and camping trips etc. She is also through state farm and I know she is limited to I believe 5k miles a year because it's not her daily. Any more and she'll get hit with a higher rate. Once I get everything on the M5 sorted (which will be a long time at the rate things keep popping up lol), I plan to get some cheap beater car and take the M off daily duties. But when I do, I'd like to find a policy that would still cover it for this kind of stuff but won't have a mileage limit. Would hagerty cover something like this, even though the car will have much higher mileage by the time I get to it?

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