On this episode of Head 2 Head, Carlos Lago pits the new 2012 BMW 335i against it's natural rival from Ingolstadt - the 2012 Audi S4. The 3 Series has long enjoyed its reputation as the benchmark of European sports sedans. But does the more powerful S4 finally have what it takes to end BMW's reign?
No dumber than "Joy", "The Four Door Sports Car", "Engineered to Move the Human Spirit", "Grab Life by the Horns", "Standard of the World", "What a Luxury Car SHould Be", or any of the other BS slogans ad agencies have come up with.
Any brand with a worldwide daily production number that includes a comma IS NOT a luxury BRAND (they might have luxurious models/trim lines) but true luxury isn't made in high volume for ANY industry/product I know of...
Rolex is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average wristwatch owner.
Louis Vuitton is perceived to be the most luxurious symbol of status to the average luggage owner.
Chanel for cosmetics. Harry Winston for jewelry. Prada, Dior, Armani, the list goes on. Lots of commas there in weekly production.
"True" luxury? That's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking Bentley or Maybach or Ferrari. We're not talking about what the typical millionaire in Beverly Hills thinks of a 3 Series. That's laughable. What we're talking about is what Mr. & Mrs. Sonata think is a status symbol in an automobile, something that somewhat attainable but is still clearly out of reach. When it comes to cars, that's Mercedes Benz and BMW.
As an E92 owner I felt that BJs posts in the forum (and the subsequent reactions) had become an important part my BMW experience. Therefore I am excited to see that my F32 forum participation will have the same perks.
@BJ I was in my friends Infiniti today and could not stop wondering why he paid so much for a Nissan Maxima.
@Everybody else, Do we think there will be an upgrade for the 335 engine when the coupes come out? I remember the E90 330i getting killed by the new lexus IS (at the time) etc and vala, out came the N54. Thoughts?
Lamborghini made a public statement to its customers that it will not use more that 30% of Audi parts in their vehicles. Audi Group operates as a separate entity even though it is owned by VAG. Since the Audi group owns Lambo, what does that make a Lambo? An Audi or a VW. I just love reading the posts that fanboys make and how they try to discount anything negative about their brand.
Here's a photo of a Lambo trans-axel
As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, BMW parts are no better than Audi or VW because they are simply random part bins. Many parts are actually in common between Audi, BMW, and MB because they use companies like GETRAG, Bosch, etc. to develop transmission, steering, and other components for their specific cars. Premium automakers do not manufacture all their own parts. They engineer and design the car as a whole and outsource its manufacturing to other companies. Chassis and engine are mostly what many automakers still do in-house.
Here is a list of U.S. suppliers for their U.S. plant - They pretty much use the same suppliers as GM, Ford, and Chrysler.
Another thing about Audi that you fanboys do not understand is that it was acquired by VW and not conceived by them unlike Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti. VW is growing through acquisition and using its power and money to successfully grow brands faster than the brands themselves could do independently. Parts will be shared to control cost, but engineering and design are still, for the most part, independent.
Audi
Porsche
Lamborghini
Bugatti
Bentley
Skoda
SEAT, sa
Ducati Motorcycles <-- Recent acquisition
Look past the VW brand and just think about the access to resources that Audi has from its step siblings. These companies are thriving because of VW's deep pockets. BMW is where they are because of its badge and brand recognition. BJ is right, if you were to ask a poor boy in India what his dream car would be, he would say BMW or MB before a Bugatti. The downside is that you have your average joe leasing a BMW for $400/month and he thinks he owns something special.
To respond to BJ's comment on how Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura is not a Luxury brand, here is some objective data to prove him wrong.
Top 50 most search for luxury brands in the U.S.:
A focus on the Luxury Automobile Market
An insight into the most popular segment shows the breakdown of searches by car models. Audi dominates featuring 4 of its models in the top 15 ranking, with the Audi A4 claiming the number spot. The 4th most popular automobile brand Acura, sees its TL model taking 2nd position while the brand leader BMW has its 3 series ranking only in 7th position.
The fact that the 3 Series outsells the A4 supports the contention that the 3 Series is more exclusive than the A4 and that the 3 Series is out of reach for most people and the A4 is not. :dunno:
For those that are not average, say some of them cut back on everything else just to have several entry level luxury cars, it will be very interesting to see what kind of such cars they tend to buy. This stats may just be perfect to prove or disapprove BJ's theory.
I am not interested in proving/disproving BJ's theory (he is on my ignore list actually).
However, a lot of how exclusive a BMW 3 series car is depends on where you live, the median income, etc.
In California (as has been pointed out) 3 series cars are extremely common, I would go out on a limb and say that in the somewhat more affluent (not wealthy) suburbs of Southern California you are more likely to see a 3 series car than a Honda or Toyota.
If I recall, California is still (even with China emerging as competition) the single biggest market for BMW in the world.
Certainly if you are stuck on an LA area freeway, surrounded by thousands of 3 series cars, any feeling of exclusivity that might exist in other parts of the country is nonexistent. On the other hand, other brands are very possibly apt to get more attention, and even though I've seen more Bentleys in a 1 hour drive in California then I have seen in the rest of my life, I would say that some other luxury auto makers might have more "mystique" in So-Cal than BMW.
If you see a lot of 3ers on the road, assume some of them are driven by those not-so-average persons, who cut back on other expenses just to be able to drive an entry level luxury car, then is it not a subtle way of saying the "poor people" aspire to BMW more so than the other entry level luxury brands, for example the Audi A4?
Most A4 drivers appear older aged with more income, and a lot of 3 drivers appear young and less affluent, so a lot more people stretch themselves to get a 3 or C, than getting an A4.
If nothing else, you really have to appreciate BJ's ability to push debate. Even though sometimes I don't agree with his point of view, I have to admit that for the majority of people in this country (not necessarily BMW enthusiasts) BMW and MB represent some sort of halo car. Everyone knows of the true luxury monikers (Bentley, RR etc) but those cars are out of touch. However, BMW and MB have for a long time been the stretch cars that most people aspire to have (I'm talking being able to afford a 3/5 series or C/E class cars). Audi has been making a big push to get included in this list. I would agree they have a very compelling argument as they've been able to latch onto mass-production techniques at VW and now have access to the engineering/performance powerhouses of Porsche/Lamborghini.
The thing with Audi is that the speed of development of what everyone perceives as BMW/MB level cars is astounding. I think within 5-10 years people will be saying that they aspire to own an Audi. The point is that they can produce these cars at VW level costs + a little more and still sell at BMW prices. With all that profit, I'm thinking that in a few years, Audi will be able to consistently out-sport most BMWs and out-luxury most MBs.
I think within 5-10 years people will be saying that they aspire to own an Audi
If nothing else, you really have to appreciate BJ's ability to push debate. Even though sometimes I don't agree with his point of view, I have to admit that for the majority of people in this country (not necessarily BMW enthusiasts) BMW and MB represent some sort of halo car. Everyone knows of the true luxury monikers (Bentley, RR etc) but those cars are out of touch. However, BMW and MB have for a long time been the stretch cars that most people aspire to have (I'm talking being able to afford a 3/5 series or C/E class cars). Audi has been making a big push to get included in this list.
quoting the average price (MSRP) of a new car is almost completely meaningless. a much better number to know would be the average price PAID for a car (new or used) by everyone in the country for a given year. that captures what people can actually afford to pay. i think we can expect to see that number be a lot lower than the average price for a new 3er.
on top of that, average price paid doesn't capture the number of people who can't afford to buy a car at all, even used. go ride the city bus and ask those people if they think your BMW is a luxury car.
74% of americans earn less than $50k a year. most of them clearly can't blow a year's salary on a new car. i don't know why some of you insist on using inflated 'averages' to imply that BMWs are really econoboxes. the term 'middle class' is also meaningless as the income difference between the top earners who consider themselves 'middle class' and the bottom is $100k/yr or more.
boltjames is biting stephen colbert, it's hilarious that some people fail to recognize sarcasm. but there is truth in irony.
quoting the average price (MSRP) of a new car is almost completely meaningless. a much better number to know would be the average price PAID for a car (new or used) by everyone in the country for a given year. that captures what people can actually afford to pay. i think we can expect to see that number be a lot lower than the average price for a new 3er.
on top of that, average price paid doesn't capture the number of people who can't afford to buy a car at all, even used. go ride the city bus and ask those people if they think your BMW is a luxury car.
74% of americans earn less than $50k a year. most of them clearly can't blow a year's salary on a new car. i don't know why some of you insist on using inflated 'averages' to imply that BMWs are really econoboxes. the term 'middle class' is also meaningless as the income difference between the top earners who consider themselves 'middle class' and the bottom is $100k/yr or more.
.
The number quoted is the average price paid for a new car and is somewhat moot since a large proportion of cars are leased today and the monthly payment is more signicant than the selling price.
BMWUSA is currently listing a lease deal on a 328i at $399/mo. Honda USA is currently listing a lease deal of $250/mo on an Accord LX (four cylinder). $150/month is not an insignificant amount of money for many people but it is conceivable that by cutting down in some areas they could be driving a BMW instead of a Honda if that is where their priorities are.
Heh, in my area of the country many people dislike German cars altogether and their idea of luxury is a rolling living room, a.k.a, Cadillac Escalade or Lincoln Navigator, both of which can be optioned up (easily) to $60,000 or more.
Statistics say the median salary for a BMW owning household is around $160,000 annually. The difference between 3 series owners ($140,000) and full size luxury 7 series ($260,000) is significant, yet tends to be indicative of luxury brands, with Mercedes owners pulling in $170,000 and Audi lovers at $183,000. It seems luxury is limited to the 100k plus club, yet the 328i couple starts at $37,650, relatively tame in actuality.
not a reputable source (in fact a terrible one), but the only one with summative info that i could find on a cursory search.
when people say 'the average person' what they probably mean is 'the average person around me' or 'the average person i know.' and given the demographics of this forum, i'd guess that not many people are friends with welfare recipients.
and that's really the issue - for all intents and purposes the perception and brand image attributed to the car you drive is fully dependent on the zip code you live in. that's the reason why so many people here insist that BMW isn't all that special. people on the other side of the tracks are a nonconsideration.
Then BoltJames pulls up kicks Todd in the face, and lights his s4 on fire. All while doing a route recalculation (because teleatlas algorithms are s*) to Todd's newly divorced wife, because lets be honest no audi owner is married
I agree with dtc100, however once you add those packages to the 335, the price skyrockets and the S4 becomes the winner again. I've said it before and I'll say it again, BMWs are too expensive.
Not if you are leasing. I think current residual for BMW with 12K miles per year is .64 while Audi is .58 I believe (I could be wrong, but I know its not over .6). that is a huge difference.
I had recently test drove a loaded A4, my impression was, it felt less sporty than the A4 I drove two years ago, the steering was so light it felt off center all the time. The lumbar support was killing my back. Definitely was not more "buttoned down" than the F30.
^^^ this is true. team Audi needs to realize that BJ = Fox News. He's not interested in the truth, he's interested in winning.
Just talk to him like you'd talk to a crazy person with no emotions and you'll be fine.
Tank like solid built is different than solid feel when you drive. The E350 is built literally solid like a tank. One time a salesperson, who was no less than 250 pounds, demonstrated this to me by opening the driver side door, climbing onto the door, pumping his belly a few times while hanging on there.
No. Not unless you wanted to be thrown into space from it's sheer power, and greatness. The doors are hand made from the boosters of advanced spaceships. All those ufos... BMW product testing.
True story, this is the internet you can't lie on it.
:bigpimp:
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