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Head 2 Head - F30 335i Against Audi S4 - Can the BMW Hold Onto its Reign?

46K views 390 replies 58 participants last post by  crazyeyeskilla 
#1 ·
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr3YrHMuLgw&feature=player_embedded#!

On this episode of Head 2 Head, Carlos Lago pits the new 2012 BMW 335i against it's natural rival from Ingolstadt - the 2012 Audi S4. The 3 Series has long enjoyed its reputation as the benchmark of European sports sedans. But does the more powerful S4 finally have what it takes to end BMW's reign?
 
#3 ·
I am not too sure why they always compare the new F30 with all season tires, to other brands with standard performance tires. The tires make significant contribution to the "spreadsheet" results.

Having said that, I wasn't surprised that the S4 in its standard form is a more fun and better driver's car, it was built that way. It should be compared to a 335i with m sport and other performance add-ons.
 
#20 ·
I don't think the tires would have made much difference in the final outcome. The way I read it is that the major contributing factors in winning the contest was (1) steering, and (2) Open vs. Sport Diff.

I don't understand your logic of asking them to compare a factory car to a modded car. While the M-Performance parts are designed and made by BMW, they are not part of the car originally made at the factory. Where do we stop? Let them compete with Dinan parts?

You can't compare an Audi to a BMW. An Audi isn't a luxury car.

BJ
Say what? I've heard all sorts of arguments, but this one takes the cake... :dunno:

Look up "fanboi" and your statement is the definition.

I assume the S4 would beat down the F30 just based on the fact the S4 comes with real tires, not eco-crazy low resistance prius-thin tires like the F30 carries standard.
And don't forget the RFT aspect. However, as I stated above, the tire had little to do with numb steering feel or the hyperactive traction control or the open diff. Even with a proper set of summer tires, I don't think the results would have been different.
 
#10 ·
Ignoring the all season versus summer tire issue (which I feel is a valid issue), I agree with the results.

I think the electric power steering in the 335i removes a lot of the steering feel compared with the S4. When I had a 2012 528i loaner, the steering most of the time wasn't an issue, but when pushed the feel wasn't there. Normally I can feel how fast I'm turning based on feedback in the wheel, but with the electric system, I couldn't feel the speed in the wheel.
 
#12 ·
Personally I don't have an issue with the review, except for braking. 131 feet is waaay out there even with all season tires. In addition, I would have loved for them to test the 335i with the adaptive suspension and variable steering because then you have the sport + and this is what convinced me to get this type of setup, better feel.

BMW really should have upped the HP and torque we all know that the N55 is really not stressed at all with the 9lbs of boost right now. I know they will do it in a year or so but I think they missed out not coming with at least 330HP and 340lbs of torque setup.
 
#11 ·
I completely disagree with BoltjaM3s !!!

AUDI is a premium/luxury brand, as much as Lexus is, as much as Infiniti, as much as Acura ... and Cadillac...

AUDI is a luxury brand, period.

"The X Men" please dont confused one member for the entire group.


In this case, the Audi deserve its stronghold !
Great review by Carlos.
 
#22 ·
I completely disagree with BoltjaM3s !!!

AUDI is a premium/luxury brand, as much as Lexus is, as much as Infiniti, as much as Acura ... and Cadillac...

AUDI is a luxury brand, period.
You see someone pull up to the country club in a BMW, you go "Ooh, that guy has made it, lucky bastard!"

You see someone pull up to the Target in an Audi, you go "I see someone's Volkswagen dealer has upsold him $50 a month to the rebadged Jetta."

BJ
 
#19 · (Edited)
It is hob nob, not hob knob.

We who achieved the status of the hoi polloi, know that.

:thumbup:
+1

BMW drivers are poster children for the hoi polloi.

1 Hoi is the Greek word for the, and the phrase hoi polloi means ***8216;the many.***8217; This has led some traditionalists to insist that hoi polloi should not be used in English with the, since that would be to state the word the twice. But, once established in English, expressions such as hoi polloi are typically treated as fixed units and are subject to the rules and conventions of English. Evidence shows that use with the has now become an accepted part of standard English usage: they kept to themselves, away from the hoi polloi (rather than . . . away from hoi polloi). 2 Hoi polloi is sometimes used incorrectly to mean ***8216;upper class***8217;***8212;that is, the exact opposite of its normal meaning. It seems likely that the confusion arose by association with the similar-sounding but otherwise unrelated word hoity-toity.
 
#21 · (Edited)
I think the S4 is a fine car, and I think its been beat on enough for me to avoid that :), but it should also be noted if the "S-Line" is considered their M/AMG division equivalent, should that really be going up against what I would consider a base sedan? :confused: I mean it would make me feel better that a non-M base car can compete with another's sport division.
 
#36 ·
Interesting video, and result.

What blows my mind is how close-minded some people can be. I'm a big fan of BMW, but I understand there are lots of other very good cars out there. To say your chosen car is the only good car is like saying your poop doesn't stink like everyone elses.

BMW has the advantage of being a privately owned company, and not part of a huge mega-conglomeration (not counting Mini and RR.) This gives them that "brand cachet" BJ is so focused on. However, and I think many would agree here, but BMW has been watering down their vehicles and brand lately in the pursuit of larger market share. Just look at this very comparison: it was stated multiple times how the 335i was more economical! The eco-tires, the efficient dynamics (including electric steering) and so-on. And that's why the 335i lost this comparo.

Just because Audi (and Lexus, Cadillac, etc.) are parts of larger brands does not make them less of a car. Does the fact that MB sells trucks and inexpensive compacts make them less luxury than BMW? Well, in the mind of narrow-sighted consumers it must. Why do you think MB does not sell those models in the US? In fact, I think Audi has an advantage here: They have more technical resources to rely upon, a larger source of funds, and perhaps most importantly, all those Jettas and Golfs to balance the CAFE numbers so they don't have to turn the 335i into a Prius.

I view BMW, MB and Audi on equal terms. Just as I'm sure a huge segment of consumers do. Lexus too, especially with the new GS beating the 5 Series in comparisons. Cadillac has been upping its game since GM realized they need to build good cars. And Acura and Infinity, Jaguar and Porsche and Fisker and some others are all playing in the same pool. Maybe some of those brands have qualities that I would never consider for myself. But they are there and people buy them. Regardless of what others may think (or not think) about them.

Honestly, if Audi didn't just ditch the Avant from the US market, it would be a very tough decision for me between an F31 and an A4 Avant.
 
#44 ·
I think many would agree here, but BMW has been watering down their vehicles and brand lately in the pursuit of larger market share. Just look at this very comparison: it was stated multiple times how the 335i was more economical! The eco-tires, the efficient dynamics (including electric steering) and so-on. And that's why the 335i lost this comparo.
I can somewhat understand BMW's thinking and their new direction. For years, other car companies have been trying to take market share away from BMW by building sportier cars. I must say, a few of those car companies are very close or have succeeded. The market for a ultra sport sedan is a lot smaller than the market for a well compromise luxury sport sedan. Knowing this, BMW is trying to beat their competition at their own game, by building a well compromised design vehicle instead. Sure, they could have gone the other way and design cars that perform better than their competition and become even more hard core, but that will shrink their market even more, instead, they leave the true sport enthusiast with the M-class and some expensive performance options. It's no doubt a win win situation for BMW as the sales numbers indicates.
 
#37 ·
Obsession is spot on....fanboys make me crazy.

BMW owners are pretty annoying....I have had 5 in a row...but man, they wonder why people hate them....usually the stereotype fits :rofl:

BMW is clearly taking things in a different direction, and they cater to a more status oriented buyer, period. Those are facts. They are leaning more towards fuel economy and luxury and moving away from sport.

The last couple models have had numb steering, and the tires are awful. The horrible braking distance has been discussed, and its a real problem. BMW is spending tons of R&D on fuel economy, with start stop (that can stall), sh!tty eco tires, blah blah.

Their sales will continue to go up, they are marketing towards people who want BMWs for status, because they have leather seats etc.

Just recognize they are going in a slightly different direction, that's all.
 
#39 ·
Claiming that because BMW is not part of a larger car company means that they make superior or more presitigious products is simply narrow minded and ignorant. Most truly prestigious marques are part of larger companies including Porsche, Bentley and Lamborghini (Volkswagen), Ferrari (Fiat).
 
#41 ·
I think that the competition between the two companies is great, at least for the consumer. Audi and BMW will continue to produce great cars and each company will only make the other better. BMW has enjoyed its place atop the luxury sedan market for a very long time and Audi is now coming very close to matching BMW. Personally, when I compared the 3 series to the A4, the choice between the two were clear. However, I am happy that there were two viable options for me to select from and truthfully, I would have been happy with either one.
 
#42 ·
I don't like the way this thread has gone. you know why? because we now have BMW owners defending BMW as being the more luxurious and status conscious. Damn it where has the true reason for BMW ownership, driving the best all around sport sedan in the world gone? Out of the window and this is the reason why the F30 was geared more towards those people that like the status and luxury (not that its neither to me) than someone like me that just loves the way the thing can carve up mountain roads.
 
#50 ·
Not to mention the fact that if you boil it down, there is no longer such a thing as a "Luxury Car", "Sports Car", "Family Car", etc. Everything built today by all the manufacturers have some blend of two or more of these "classes".

A modern BMW such as the 3 Series has perhaps a 45/35/20 blend of Luxury/Sports/Family in it. Even classic enthusiast BMWs like the E30 were not 100% of any class. Though perhaps it was more of a 20/60/20 blend.

Manufacturers will chase the money. And modern consumers seem more interested in throwing their money at luxury and prestige than sport and handling. Even your super and hyper cars have leather seats, doodads, and are drivable without bodily injury or risk of death.
 
#56 ·
Someone earlier made a good point, the fact BMW is not a "rebadged" car makes it not having the cheaper models to absorb the fuel economy requirements, 3ers being the base volume seller naturally have the burden of achieving as high an mpg as possible in order to meet the quota, while still trying to maintain some level of sporty characters.

The upcoming ATS for example, may not have to, because it has the Chevy Cruze/Sonic to take that mpg spread, so Caddy may have more luxury to tune the ATS like an E46.
 
#61 ·
I aspire to own an Audi. I think many people on these forums do. I actually think Audi is more of a luxury brand than BMW. Typically, Audi surpasses BMW with comfort and interior design. While BMW has always been more about driving dynamics. However, based on this comparison between the 335i and S4, it looks as though those attributes have flip-flopped!

In fact, Audi's sales have been outpacing other luxury brands, particularly in the US. I do believe that Audi is gaining because it has all the comfort and luxury of MB and BMW, plus smashing good looks (subjective) and the lack of the pretentiousness of the BMW badge.

BJ, I rarely call anyone out on the boards, because for the most part I'm a tree-hugging non-confrontational dude who wants everybody to get along. And I respect that everyone is going to have their own opinion. But how can you say things like "nobody aspires to owning an Audi" and "Audi (and the other brands) aren't luxury cars"? Have you asked every single US resident and tallied their responses? You're welcome to your opinions and you may despise anything without an Roundel on it, but please refrain from speaking for the entire US/world population. Personally, I don't want you speaking for me, because I don't agree with a single thing you say. Speak for yourself, and we can all be happy.

Oh, and my opinion is that a 3 Series is not a luxury car either. A true luxury car is going to be something like a RR. The 3 may have some luxury qualities, but for the most part it is a sport sedan. (Or.. it should be.)
 
#63 ·
.

Oh, and my opinion is that a 3 Series is not a luxury car either. A true luxury car is going to be something like a RR. The 3 may have some luxury qualities, but for the most part it is a sport sedan. (Or.. it should be.)
I'd say its like a hybrid not quite a lux, not quite a sports sedan :D. I can't get my vented seats or $3500k B&O speakers :mad:

Both make very good cars, you can't go wrong with either.
This
 
#64 ·
It is funny to see such brand loyalty here. Particularly from BJ who probably craps BMW roundels. I have owned both BMW's and Audi's. Audi's are definitely nice vehicles. I happen to like them both as well as other makes and models. I have the ability to appreciate more than 1 brand. I couldn't imagine eating the same thing every day for the rest of my life any more than I could imagine driving the same make and model vehicle.
 
#66 ·
They are luxury cars, though more accurately they are "entry level luxury sporty cars."

BJ's view does have a good representation not only in the US but abroad. In fact I think BMW has made a point of this, by being a more exclusive luxury car maker with emphasis in driving dynamics, there is benefit to its consumer base.

But now we begin to see the downside. BMW could merge with Hyundai, allow them to share technologies, and mpg requirements, so the BMW brand does not have to be so mpg conscious, and BJ can easily gain a lot of new friends.

Not as if he could go somewhere else abroad. Not as if he could even move to the MB brand, the name DaimlerChrysler had left a permanent scar in his heart.
 
#72 ·
BMW losing the occasional comparo is not a bad thing, that kind of feedback (kind of like when C&D gave the performance sedan crown to the S4 a few years ago and the 335i was toppled) is what drives them to do better.

BMW is toeing a fine line, between economy, "luxury" and performance.... and they are eyeing China, where performance is much less of a concern typically, as eventually displacing the US as their biggest market.

If Germany was their biggest market, we would see a very different kind of product I think in the 3 series.
 
#73 ·
After reading this thread, I wondered:

What was BMW's competition for the S4 before the 335i?

If I were a kid, would an R8 be on my list of cars I want.

Who has taken their BMW apart (I have, and not just mine) and noticed that the components are of no better quality than those of an Audi, or VW in some cases.

Who wants to hobnob with folks who "hob-knob?"

;)

This forum actually reminds me of the VW, Audi, Volvo and Saab forums I have belonged to in the past. Very helpful members and very little arrogance. In my experience, Benz forums are full of the latter. Those types seem to have little car knowledge. Still great cars to own though.
 
#80 ·
Just have to make a little comment here about one of Audi's new ads where the folks are climbing out of their Bimmers to climb onto an Audi car carrier as they all move down the road. Love Audi's "tagline", "Today more people than ever are leaving BMW for Audi." Of course, for that to be true only ONE more person than in the "past" has to leave BMW for Audi. Kind of like all the insurance commercials, "People who left XYZ auto insurance company saved an average of $10,000 per month when they switched to ABC auto insurance." And all the people who didn't save didn't switch. And the actual number of people who switched was two.
 
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