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Is this really a 3 series ?

35K views 600 replies 67 participants last post by  t335xi 
#1 ·
Have my E70 in for service, I am driving a 2013 Luxury Line 328XI, the last 3 series that I had driven was my wifes's 2002 330xi years ago, I remember a tight driving, planted feel that truly had the BMW " FeeL'", Yes the new 2013 is a world away interior wise but taking the same off ramps compared to my X5, kind of shocked that my X5 feels much more planted and stable even though it is an SUV . I am truly hoping that the next X is not as soft , I guess the car mags were right on this one, hard to believe that that this is being billed as a
" sport sedan " , do not get me wrong, it is a nice vehicle but what truly sets this apart from the other competitors other than the badge ?
 
#2 ·
The standard suspension car(which is exacerbated by the XI) is softer than previous generation non sport suspension 3 series. The sport suspension is equal to or a bit less sporting than the previous sports suspension and to get equal to that, you would need the optional MPerformance suspension.

This has become the cliche of driving a poorly equipped loaner and thinking that is what has become of the 3 series.

To get a proper experience, drive a RWD MSport with summer tires.
 
#20 ·
The standard suspension car(which is exacerbated by the XI) is softer than previous generation non sport suspension 3 series. The sport suspension is equal to or a bit less sporting than the previous sports suspension and to get equal to that, you would need the optional MPerformance suspension.

This has become the cliche of driving a poorly equipped loaner and thinking that is what has become of the 3 series.

To get a proper experience, drive a RWD MSport with summer tires.
Exactly. It's becoming common with previous-model drivers coming onto forums with "WOW I can't believe how soft the new 3/5/etc. feels" after driving loaner cars with Luxury Packages and weighted things like X-Drive.

Fact is, a Luxury Line 3-Series isn't even a base 3-Series.... it's specifically a LUXURY Line. As said by so many here, newer BMW's aren't the "out of the box road warriors" they used to be, now in base form they come much more comfortably and "luxuriously", for better or worse. A Sport Package and some tactful sporty Options are a must if you're going to gauge an F Chassis' sportive merits, as the cars are designed to need them to "wake up" and show capabilities there.
 
#3 ·
To answer the question in your title, "Depends on what a 3-series means to you." For me, "No." My Sport Line is quite composed in triple-digit not-so-perfect straights, and responsive in mountain twisties. An xDrive Luxury Line is an entirely different kettle of fish.
 
#4 ·
F30s are smooth/non-harsh when compared to the previous generations. Not saying that they have as much feel but it is easy to see how some can be conditioned to equate a certain level of smoothness to Camrys, Buicks and boats.

I often warn my overnight guests to never mistake an initial impression of softness for a total lack of sporting ability and intentions.
 
#18 ·
I often warn my overnight guests to never mistake an initial impression of softness for a total lack of sporting ability and intentions.
Agreed. Comfort doesn't mean the car is not doing what it should be doing.

A suspension should never be harsh. The problem with the E9x sport suspension was that it was harsh and had trouble keeping the tires in contact with the road as they would bounce around on bumps and unsettle the car.

For good handling a suspension should be firm with minimal body roll but not harsh.

It seems that BMW went from one extreme to the other. It seems that when they went to low profile RFTs they have had a hard time coming up with a good balance between comfort and handling.

Personally I think you made the right choice. I would probably find the body roll in the F30 annoying but not as annoying as the harshness of the E9x suspension which felt like the car was going to break in half when it hit a pothole.

CA
Having almost a week driving this car with relative speed impunity, up and down twisty roads (take C2C Bear Notch and add some crack to it) I can say the 335 with x-drive handles in such a way that I smiled a lot, and when I was done let out a deep breath of satisfaction. The car really handles well.

Tires are Pirelli Centurino all season

Important correction:

All XDrive suspensions are the same regardless of line. Luxury line, Modern line, No-Line, Sport line, or M-Sport line, if you have an XDrive model, you have the XDrive suspension, identical on all XDrive cars, its the softest suspension available for the F30.

If one wants a Sport suspension on any XDrive car, one must get the DHP and it's Adaptive M Suspension, hit the button, put it in Sport mode. As such, a Luxury line XDrive and an M-Sport line XDrive have the identical (soft) suspension and both can be fitted equally with the identical (soft or firm) Adaptive M Suspension.

BJ
This is a big gripe. Paying for M-sport, paying for x-drive but then having to pay for DHP to get what someone would have gotten if they only got m-sport (minus the 4 wheel drive). Personally if buying M-sport + x-drive they should either discount (package price) or give DHP for free.

I can feel the difference in comfort but the car handles well.

What I do miss is the stiffness of the steering wheel...being able to feel every pebble/crack in the 330xi was great.
 
#5 · (Edited)
A major difference that affects the handling and braking performance of the F30 is BMW's switch to low rolling resistance all season tires, such as those that are now standard equipment on xDrive 3ers. Those tires are really terrible and cannot be compared to any tires BMW has used in the past. You can send your thank you letter for this decision directly to the EPA.
 
#6 ·
This. Along with the low dust non M Sport pads have a really terrible effect on braking feel and handling.

I feel like I am averaging .5-1mpg less since putting on my STICKY PSS'.
 
#7 ·
Others have said it already, but I will reiterate:

The legendary BMW handling and feel is still available, it's just no longer standard equipment. BMW is killing two birds with one stone. The vast majority of buyers want a comfortable ride and the last generation was very harsh. Making a smaller subset of consumers pay more for a more expensive suspension setup is a good way to generate additional revenue.

I have no knowledge of the new X5 but logic dictates the same paradigm will exist. When it's time to place your order, make sure you look for the Adaptive M Suspension or the Dynamic Handling Package. Those two options make the F30 what you'd expect it to be.

I myself am one of those who liked the softer suspension, so the RWD and standard suspension suits my needs. That said I wish I had known more and gotten the DHP, only $1000 and allows the car to be harsh when wanted at the push of a button.

BJ
 
#8 · (Edited)
Others have said it already, but I will reiterate:

The legendary BMW handling and feel is still available, it's just no longer standard equipment. BMW is killing two birds with one stone. The vast majority of buyers want a comfortable ride and the last generation was very harsh. Making a smaller subset of consumers pay more for a more expensive suspension setup is a good way to generate additional revenue.

I have no knowledge of the new X5 but logic dictates the same paradigm will exist. When it's time to place your order, make sure you look for the Adaptive M Suspension or the Dynamic Handling Package. Those two options make the F30 what you'd expect it to be.

I myself am one of those who liked the softer suspension, so the RWD and standard suspension suits my needs. That said I wish I had known more and gotten the DHP, only $1000 and allows the car to be harsh when wanted at the push of a button.

BJ
A suspension should never be harsh. The problem with the E9x sport suspension was that it was harsh and had trouble keeping the tires in contact with the road as they would bounce around on bumps and unsettle the car.

For good handling a suspension should be firm with minimal body roll but not harsh.

It seems that BMW went from one extreme to the other. It seems that when they went to low profile RFTs they have had a hard time coming up with a good balance between comfort and handling.

Personally I think you made the right choice. I would probably find the body roll in the F30 annoying but not as annoying as the harshness of the E9x suspension which felt like the car was going to break in half when it hit a pothole.

CA
 
#9 ·
I drive a 2003 E46 with Sports Package as my daily driver; my wife drives a standard (no line) F30 but when I drive her car in sports mode, I find less body roll running the curves about our home. True, there seems to be a dampened feel with the road, but the F30 is much more enjoyable for road trips compared with the E46, not to even mention the acceleration when putting pedal to the metal. :D
 
#16 ·
I drive a 2003 E46 with Sports Package as my daily driver; my wife drives a standard (no line) F30 but when I drive her car in sports mode, I find less body roll running the curves about our home. True, there seems to be a dampened feel with the road, but the F30 is much more enjoyable for road trips compared with the E46, not to even mention the acceleration when putting pedal to the metal. :D
?? Does her car have DHP/Adaptive suspension? Absent that option sport mode has no effect on the suspension.
 
#10 ·
You do realize that you were driving the "softest" F30 "line" in existence, correct? ;)

I think that you would find/experience what you would expect in a BMW 3 Series if you went for a spirited drive in either a Sport Line or M Sport Line F30 (328i or 335i).

If you wanted an even more aggressive "feel" with respect to the aforementioned lines, one has the ability to opt for either the Dynamic Handling Package (Variable Sport Steering + M Adaptive Suspension) or the M Performance Suspension. :thumbup:
 
#14 ·
You do realize that you were driving the "softest" F30 "line" in existence, correct? ;)
Important correction:

All XDrive suspensions are the same regardless of line. Luxury line, Modern line, No-Line, Sport line, or M-Sport line, if you have an XDrive model, you have the XDrive suspension, identical on all XDrive cars, its the softest suspension available for the F30.

If one wants a Sport suspension on any XDrive car, one must get the DHP and it's Adaptive M Suspension, hit the button, put it in Sport mode. As such, a Luxury line XDrive and an M-Sport line XDrive have the identical (soft) suspension and both can be fitted equally with the identical (soft or firm) Adaptive M Suspension.

BJ
 
#11 · (Edited)
Actually, BMW developed a proper sport suspension on the 335i starting for the 2010-2011 model years. Not harsh in the least, it is compliant and performs very well. I wish posters would not keep including all model year E90 3 Series when discussing harsh suspensions.
 
#22 ·
I disagree with this assertion. LCI models are much better than the pre-LCI models, but the ride can still be harsh. Drive around on the back roads in Vermont and your kidneys will regret it. In addition, the wheels still bounce around and lose contact if you go over a washboard road.
 
#26 ·
I suspect that you had the same awkward feeling that I got when I drove the N20 in many vehicles, including the X1 in early 2011. Bottom line, BMW lost its soul with the 328i 4-cyl. and it is not only about handling.

Both your vehicles expresses what differentiated BMW well in the market; a visceral engine experience. This accounts to me for 50% of the BMW driving experience. Now that nasty N20 sounds like a Civic and that's bad.

Fortunately, FORTUNATELY the N55 is available and you can get a very nice 335i Sport for 45K$, with best-in-class engine. Not an engine that belongs to a 30K$ car.

Better, the upcoming M235i will re-establish BMW's edge in the compact premium market. The 128i/135i should does this too, but the lack of visual appeal is a deal breaker, IMO.



There is hope!
 
#28 ·
LOL-not going to go on and on about the N20 to counter your hate. But even though you hate it, do not refer to the N55 as the best in class engine(ATS 3.6, IS350,C350, S4 etc) at the same time not realizing the N20 has been nearly universally heralded as ALSO best in class(N20 as the base engine compared to the Is250, ATS 2.5+2.0, TSX 2.4,A4,S60, C250 etc)

I will say, the M235 has me interested, if they do some kind of 4dr variant with the N55 as a Grand Coupe and price it under $45k, I may consider it if the F80 M3 is not all it's cracked up to be. I was never in love with the 1 series due to it's proportions, but that M235 looks like a scaled down F32 which is a GOOD thing.
 
#40 ·
The n20 sounds like a diesel, the n55 sounds like a vacuum cleaner, and the Mercedes V6 sounds like a very well damped version of the V6s GM made from 1990-2007.

With BMW, at least, you truly do get amazingly efficient engines that somehow offer best-in-class economy (for their power ratings) and performance.
 
#57 ·
Tturedraider -

Sorry man but the concept that halogen lamps as standard in this segment is acceptable is crap. Acura developed the TSX in 2004 with xenons standard for cars starting in the high 20s. VW did it with the GTI starting in 2006.

I get that BMW has done it for awhile, but it's one of the little blemishes on them.
 
#58 ·
BTW, one more thing.

I have test driven many BMW models over the years. The "base models" - i.e. those with standard suspensions and thin all-season rubber - as well as lazy throttle calibrations have always been some of the least engaging cars I've ever driven.

This included the e46 325 and 330i, the e39 528i/540i, and the e90 328i.

This speaks to the fact that suspension, tires, good seats, a sporty steering wheel, and good throttle calibration can really transform a car regardless of how good the baseline chassis, engine, and steering system is...
 
#70 ·
Some people just flat out hate the thought of a 4-banger in a 3 series. They will come up with any justification for their dislike of the N20.

And that's fine. If they don't like it, they don't like it. But it is being pretty universally recognized as the best 4-banger in it's class out there by a wide margin. It wins recognition after recognition and award after award.

There are others that like to bag on the F30 because they prefer an audi or other make. Okay, so buy one. Stop trying to justify your decision and just make it. There is no need to bag on what someone else feels is a damn good car/engine/etc other than to make yourself feel better about yourself.

Again, the car wins accolade after accolade for a reason (several in fact).
 
#72 ·
I have driven several ATS of all trim levels and did a test drive of a '13 328i and I never felt the N20 was rough or not suitable for a BMW. In fact I was wowed by it's smoothness and great amount of power in comparison to the 2.0T ATS I had driven a few weeks before. It didn't have the smoothness or sound of my M52TU I6 and nor did I expect it to. I was disappointed in the ATS engines especially the 3.6 in comparison to the 335's engine.
 
#74 · (Edited)
I am not a fan of the F30 suspension, but I find the N20 to be very powerful and smooth in its power delivery. It really is a good engine with nice power. Cannot say anything negative about it. The handling is another matter all together and one that I have voiced my qualms about. The average 3 buyer is probably very happy with a base or sport line 328. It gives all anyone needs. The enthusiast, like most of us, will find the stock 328 lacking. For what it is worth, the 328 was never meant to be an enthusiast car and that is more true with the F30 than earlier versions of the 3 series.


Sent from BimmerApp mobile app
 
#76 ·
For what it is worth, the 328 was never meant to be an enthusiast car and that is more true with the F30 than earlier versions of the 3 series.
Hallelujah.

Not sure why this sporty luxury car is being held to such an irrational standard. In the right configuration, the F30 is fantastic for most enthusiastic drivers, but it's bigger and softer by design. The new 1 Series will answer all the enthusiasts pining for an E30 throwback. They just released the 3 Series and it's bigger proportions first.

BJ
 
#79 ·
I find it funny how a person criticizes the N20 for not being engaging enough, but uses a low 7/10 NVH score (vs the competition's 8/10) to justify that. In my mind, it's the engine with more noise, vibration and harshness that's the more engaging engine. To be honest, I find the N20 too quiet for my taste. I wish it were louder so I could better hear the revs when driving spiritedly. Ever shake the engine by hand when the hood is up? Those engine mounts are SOFT. Do that to an S2000 and the engine barely moves in comparison. I wish BMW had put in some stiffer mounts for the Sport Line. Any engine that comes across as quieter would just be a bore.
 
#81 ·
is good to see BJ is keeping up the "flag" of the F30. Guys I really feel some of you that have come from years past 3-Series BMWs and have issues with how the F30 handles its because of the steering feel and not the suspension. I have the sport line with DHP and the car handles great and its the most comfortable riding 3-series ever. However when it comes to steering feel, no question about it is vague compared to my 2007 328i sport. I would like BMW to continue developing the steering on the F30 because I do think there is room for improvement.
 
#98 ·
But steering precision and feel are an integral part of handling. And IMO as the owner of a base suspension E90 and who had a base F30 for a day as a loaner, the F30 handling in that model was no where near as precise and reassuring as my E90. And I drove the F30 in Sport mode the entire time. I'd like to drive a Sport Line version or one with DHP for comparison. Even if it then handles how I'd like, the steering is still not what I want in a 3 series. Maybe I could get used to it.
 
#92 ·
To me a V8 in a 3 Series (i.e. ///M) is more anathema to me than an I4. After all, that's where it all started.

Lo and behold, the new M3 will go back to an I6.
 
#118 ·
Lol @ "Drives like crap". That's quite misleading. That's like someone accustomed to and staunch on Mercedes' having to ride like venerable W126 (80's) S-Classes (incredibly cushy and wafty) saying that a C63 "drives like crap" because it wants to knock your fillings out.

I've driven a 328i, I took it through its paces just weeks before I drove a Ferrari F430 around a race track. Even with that base of comparison I wouldn't say the "F30 drives like crap". In fact, if you wanted to play the preference game, you can find reasons to say that anything "drives like crap".... including the Ferrari. :D
 
#122 · (Edited)
Well, not sure if this helps or hurts, but I agree that you need to check the right option boxes on the F30, and I am almost certain the F32 will be the same way.

My wife has an E90 which we love. It went in for service and we had a new F30 for a week. It was not bad, but there is not doubt that BMW changed the dynamics of the car so heavily that someone who enjoyed the feel of the E90 may not be so happy with the F30. Most car companies try to avoid this.

Since I was car shopping a couple months ago for myself, I drove a very nice F30, 335i m sport loaded to the gills. DHP, 19" tires, etc. Honestly that felt fine. Was it anywhere near, or approaching M3 feel for me. No. Was it the "beast" the salesman warned me of? It was quick, but something raw was missing. Which I can't really fault the car for since many people find the refinement nice to have, and BMW clearly wanted to go in that direction. Other than that the car looked great in the EBII blue.

I guess the best way to sum it up is that I expected one driving feel, and got something completely different. Not bad per say. Different.
 
#126 ·
This reminds me of a conversation I had with a valet a while back that's always stuck in my head. I was dropping off my car and he said, "sweet beemer, does it have the sport package?" When I replied in the affirmative, he said, "it's not a bmw without it, right?"
 
#130 ·
This has been said before and I'll say it here again:

The new 5-series is the old 7 series. The new 3-series is the old 5 series.

The f30 drives like an exceptionally connected e39 5-series. Is it a 3-series of yore? No. It's more powerful, has better fuel economy, is more spacious, is loaded with more luxury and tech options, etc.

If you go into it expecting an e46 ZHP's driving connection, you will be dissapointed. If you go into it expecting an e46's level of trim, space, and appointments...you'll most likely be really quite pleased.

Maybe I'm a curmudgeon, but I don't get the love for the e90. It's not an attractive vehicle from the outside. It's austere - and not in a good way - inside. It's steering was artifically heavy to give it "that german feel". It rode...not great...with sport package and stock tires. It felt underpowered with the NA inline six unless you were ringing it out. The 335i fuel economy in mixed driving was poor. Tech wasn't well executed on it. I could go on.

In 2007, that 335i was a hot car. Other than that, the e90 is the ugly stepchild of the 3-series evolution.
 
#149 ·
I also found the E90 to be the least enticing 3-Series since I can remember. The whole E65/E60/E90 generation will go down as the stylistic odd ducks of the BMW evolution. Every other 3 or 5 Series has been an instant Classic design. I don't think either of the two from that generation of 3/5 will ever go down as such.

Though one thing one must credit to the E90 is that it was far ahead of its time, like all BMW's from that era. It's just that IMO they spawned an unfortunate styling trend of disjointed elements. However, to this day, you see Mercedes and about every Economy Brand scrambling to come up with awkward designs and they end up putting stuff out that bears heavy influence from the E90 generation.

Though I do think the E90 is a much better design that will stand the test of time better than either the E60 or E65, IMO the F30 looks like how the E90 should have looked, taking size out of the equation. Smoothened, refined, more relaxed without losing character or focus, i.e how any Classic BMW should be.
 
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