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Is this really a 3 series ?

35K views 600 replies 67 participants last post by  t335xi 
#1 ·
Have my E70 in for service, I am driving a 2013 Luxury Line 328XI, the last 3 series that I had driven was my wifes's 2002 330xi years ago, I remember a tight driving, planted feel that truly had the BMW " FeeL'", Yes the new 2013 is a world away interior wise but taking the same off ramps compared to my X5, kind of shocked that my X5 feels much more planted and stable even though it is an SUV . I am truly hoping that the next X is not as soft , I guess the car mags were right on this one, hard to believe that that this is being billed as a
" sport sedan " , do not get me wrong, it is a nice vehicle but what truly sets this apart from the other competitors other than the badge ?
 
#162 ·
As someone who has driven an E39 and owned an E60, I am not sure how anyone can compare the driving characteristics of those cars to the F30. Yes, they are larger sedans, but they drive nothing like an F30.

The 5-series, up until the F10 was a great car for hitting twisty mountain road with precise steering and taut handling. The F30 is made to be a sporty looking car with Toyota Camry level of isolation and cushy ride, targeted at the non-enthusiast market.
 
#193 · (Edited)
Seems like the issue is with preferences on the driving experience, and whether or not every model in the range has sports as a primary priority (over other traits). Well... the lineup has now expanded to include a wider swath of buyer - of which each represents $ for the company. I see no problem with that.

Choice allows you to retain sporty 'feel' if you choose to do so. Other drivers just don't have high-effort steering as a priority, so if BMW can sell cars that are still more sporty than an average lower-end Lexus sedan, then welcome to the roundel - we're glad to have you!

On an aside, I don't get the whole 'steering sucks! but it's less bad in Sport' thing. Well, if it feels over boosted, just drive it in sport. Further that only changes the perceived steering effort, not steering or road feel. Beyond some EPS quirks, I just don't have anything bad to say about the steering precision or accuracy. I do like a firm rack (giggity), but that's not the defining trait of 'sporty' to me.

A newer build F30 (revised steering tuning) with DHP, or at least the sportline/M-sport is a fine sports sedan (and really, so is a no option, no line F30!). My current F30 performs as well or better than any of the 4 BMWs I've had previously... and while achieves those measured objectives in a different way - it's certainly not akin to BMW losing their way. The IS F-sport winning a comparo doesn't mean the sky is falling, I just take it as BMW having inspired a good company to build an even better car to match up with the 3.
 
#200 ·
I recently took my Sport Line 328i in for its service. I got a base 328i xDrive as a loaner. I think its suspension tuning was designed in Pisa. Significant lean in any sort of corner. And super floaty when going over bumps/humps. I can understand an enthusiast being disappointed in such a car. But then I got back into my 704 M Sport suspension equipped car and all was right with the world. It's the sort of car that's a whole lot of fun in the mountain canyon twisties. And the N20 engine is sweet.
 
#212 ·
Understood and I will not be on the E9x boards stirring the pot as others do here.
 
#214 · (Edited)
Feel free to post in any Bimmerfest Forum. You should be able to provide considerable input, especially since you're still driving an Infiniti and have never owned a BMW before.
 
#217 ·
I have had numerous loaners ( goes with the reliability issue at times )

1. 535 xi
2. X3
3. 328Xi- 18in tires

All vehicles were fairly well equipped with the " comfort " items , all of the vehicles drove
floaty with finger tip type steering, in fact with the direction of Cadillac , will they become the new BMW ????? I was not impressed with the ride of any of the 3 above vehicles, when I drove my X5 it feels like a sports sedan compared to the above ( far from a sports sedan ) ,
In fact I was pretty disappointed, even a BASE BMW SUSPENSION should have decent handling prowess, BMW does not differentiate themselves from the competition with their new " handling philosophy"
 
#218 ·
XI vehicles like the 328 have the softest most un-sporting suspensions, the DHP helps the 328 a lot though.

XI is not something that improves a BMW and should be judged accordingly. XI improves traction, that is all. With it comes weight and softer suspensions. Pass.
 
#235 ·
Random thoughts

1. Ride comfort and handling are not mutually exclusive and any car that is purported to be a "Sports Sedan" should excel at both. The E9x with RFTs and the stock shocks had very poorly engineered suspension and was inexcusably intolerant of pot holes and other road imperfections. As I discovered this was a relatively easy problem to rectify and I would guess that my personal R&D budget was somewhat lower that BMW's. I have limited experience diving F30s but IMO BMW went too far in the other direction with the standard suspension and the car feels too soft for my taste. That being said I think that from a marketing standpoint too soft is going to be less of a turn off to the majority of buyers than too firm.

2. I really don't get the "The E9x steered like a truck" posts.

3. There are a lot of E9x drivers who are leasing and who will be considering an F3x when it is time to replace their cars. They should be able to participate in this forum and voice their opinions without being shouted down because they drive "old used cars" or are living in the past.

4. There are certain characteristics of the 3 Series (i.e. superior driving dynamics) that built the brand. If some people feel that BMW has lost its edge in this regard IMO that is a very legitimate opinion and people that feel that way have a right to express that opinion (without beating a dead horse).

CA
 
#238 · (Edited)
1. Ride comfort and handling are not mutually exclusive and any car that is purported to be a "Sports Sedan" should excel at both. The E9x with RFTs and the stock shocks had very poorly engineered suspension and was inexcusably intolerant of pot holes and other road imperfections. As I discovered this was a relatively easy problem to rectify and I would guess that my personal R&D budget was somewhat lower that BMW's. I have limited experience diving F30s but IMO BMW went too far in the other direction with the standard suspension and the car feels too soft for my taste. That being said I think that from a marketing standpoint too soft is going to be less of a turn off to the majority of buyers than too firm.

2. I really don't get the "The E9x steered like a truck" posts.

3. There are a lot of E9x drivers who are leasing and who will be considering an F3x when it is time to replace their cars. They should be able to participate in this forum and voice their opinions without being shouted down because they drive "old used cars" or are living in the past.

4. There are certain characteristics of the 3 Series (i.e. superior driving dynamics) that built the brand. If some people feel that BMW has lost its edge in this regard IMO that is a very legitimate opinion and people that feel that way have a right to express that opinion (without beating a dead horse).

CA
Well said.
 
#244 ·
It's an old car with strange styling and the misfit between the E46 and F30.
It is actually the quintessence of the 3-series. Never a 3-series was rated so high and so acclaimed by experts.

Of course you are not an expert. :dunno:

I love my strange styling. :p




That's probably a good thing for my wallet that the F30 is not compelling at all. Oh I will get one F30 or F22.... eventually. :)
 
#256 ·
It is actually the quintessence of the 3-series. Never a 3-series was rated so high and so acclaimed by experts.

Of course you are not an expert.

I love my strange styling.

That's probably a good thing for my wallet that the F30 is not compelling at all. Oh I will get one F30 or F22.... eventually.
You seem to forget that every F30 owner you are talking to owned E90's as well, some of us multiple E90's. The E90 was acclaimed in 2006 because it was a good car in (wait for it) 2006.

By today's standards, it's tired, it's old, it's played, and as long as we're being honest- it's the most overrated BMW in history. It is neither as sporty as an E46 or as luxurious as an F30. It suffers from Bad Bangle, looking too bland and too aggressive all at the same time. Very hard to do. The interior is awful, just a plain mess that put way too much emphasis on function and zero emphasis on style. This "legendary" I6 is sluggish and boring compared to the Turbo 4, the auto transmission is jerky, the brake dust is lowbrow, the windshield cracks when you blow on it, the list is endless.

The F30 is the "undo" button on the E90, puts the 3 Series squarely in the niche of the E39, big enough for the family, nimble enough to be fun. Spend the money, you get the suspension and the performance too.

No knock on the E90. I loved mine too. Back in 2009. It's 2014 already.

BJ
 
#269 ·
To pile more fire onto the E90/F30 wars, lots of people who have owned multiple BMW's but don't currently have an E90 or F30 (i.e no agenda) feel the F30's interior is more low-rent than the E90's (cost cutting material quality, etc.). The F10 Forums just had some posts by guys who got F30 loaners and were astonished with the drop in tactile quality.

I myself am "pro-F30" so it's not a dig to make a dig, nor do I think the E90's interior is nicer nor more high quality necessarily (haven't been in an E90 for too long to make that assumption), but I don't think the F30's interior is in line with a lot of what BMW has been putting out lately (too much 1-Series).
 
#270 · (Edited)
F20 and F30 have nearly identical interiors, with the F20 being a bit snug (tried both during a visit to the Welt). F10 is definitely more upscale (and quite different), but it is a significantly bigger car.

From what I have seen, I have no complaints about the F30 interior except that I don't like the restrictions that the lines impose.

The single thing that I think is the problem with the F30 is the handling. It is now almost no different than MB or Audi. I think Michael Schott put it best. The E90/E46 inspired confidence and practically begged you to push the car. The F30 doesn't inspire that confidence, although when pushed, it delivers...but then so do the A4 and the C. BMW still wins over the competition in interior design (which is subjective; and I won't comment on quality of materials 'coz it's hard to tell without owning both cars) and the engines (power, fuel economy).
 
#290 ·
I think people new to the brand expect different things. I think people new to the 3 series expect different things.

BMW made a decision to take the 3 series in a different direction altogether. Whether this was to compete for market share against competition, "keep up" with the marketplace, make room for the 1 series to grow beyond a niche car, whatever.

There is nothing wrong with the F30. BMW felt that the market share they would gain would be more valuable than the market share lost due to enthusiasts moaning over road feel. The brand has changed dramatically. As Lexus and Caddy have spent millions trying to inject a little BMW feel into their cars, BMW has been trying to make their cars appeal to Lexus and Mercedes owners.

They are offering "lines" to try to appeal to each one. Audi owners might like the "modern" line. Mercedes and Lexus owners might like the "luxury" line. Traditional BMW owners might like the "sport" line.

My problem is that every line, for the most part, drives the same as one another! Yes, I know I know. If you order an Msport car and check the right boxes it feels pretty damn nice. But you have to comb the forums to figure that one out. And be willing to spend 55K to get the same steering feel and straight 6 sound you used to be able to buy for 40K sans turbo.
 
#318 ·
Wow, this thread really changed dynamics while I was typing that.:yikes:
 
#371 ·
Group 4: sports coupe drivers who have no need for a family sedan.

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#376 ·
I can't speak for everyone, but the reason this conversation generates so much energy, I think, is because....well I'll speak for myself and see if you agree.

I am on my 5th BMW. All of my BMW's have been new leased 3-series, or vehicles related to a 3 series. I really have felt that I found my car, and I am not motivated to search outside the family because I've grown to feel every 3 years I will have what I had before, only better.

The F30 can feel like a betrayal, because all of a sudden there is a 3 series that is missing some of what I see as the core attributes of "my" car. (My wife's X3 has the same problem, but when I compare it to the Acura and Lexus SUV's she's driven before, relatively speaking, you can still see its essential BMWness. To my wife, who is not an enthusiast, and who has never had any interest in driving my cars, when I finally got her to drive the X3, she said, "Oh my God, now I see what you mean.")

DHP is part of the answer. But let's face it, this generation of EPS just loses something, and DHP doesn't make up for it. I really blame it all on the EPS. I haven't driven other enthusiast cars that have switched from HPS to EPS, but from the reactions I read in reviews of Boxsters, e.g., the issue is the same, perhaps not as extreme.

I find it hard to believe that BMW designers and engineers looked at what they have wrought with the current state of the art EPS and have said "that's fine; we'll just get a different class of customers." I think that it's a combo of the need to lead with the "next big thing" (look at runflats, which is another questionable BMW move from our point of view, but which are slowly becoming less of an issue over time), and the intense pressure on improving fuel efficiency and reducing CO2 emissions. I guess it's kind of like, "well maybe they'll get used to it."

Me, steering feel has always been #1 in priority. I loved my 2005 E46 for it, I love my Miata for it, and I really liked my E90s and now my X1 for it. I don't want to lose that, and the F30 doesn't have it. Yes, my E90s crashed more than I felt befits a BMW, and yes I cursed the runflats, but I still looked forward to driving them every day.

I would hate to think in 3 years I will not be able to get that any more. What will I drive then? Well, from what I read, GM and Lexus are finally starting to learn what BMW my be forgetting.
 
#377 · (Edited)
Beyond passion for the brand, and automobiles in general - I have to believe another reason for the length of this thread is the use of hyperbole or exaggeration to make a point. Its just another day on the internet :dunno: Is the F30 really your father's Oldsmobile disguised as a BMW?

I just don't think there is SUCH a lack of driving feel or enjoyment versus the competition/predecessors that it's going to doom the brand in any way. Sure, things are different, but what car has gone from one generation to the next without making material changes?

The F30, at least the way mine is optioned is fast, well balanced - and very fun to drive. I have no secret, sinister, ulterior motive in saying that. I got rid of 1 F30 335i, had the choice to go in a number of other directions, but ultimately came back. I really like BMWs, but I like good cars above all, and have no qualms about trying something else... I have no ego tied to a car or brand. I'll say it again, my F30 (if not all F30s) is very well balanced and very fun, and carries the 3-series banner well.

The segment is coming out with fine cars, of which the F30 is one. Because the formula has changed doesn't suddenly mean BMW has lost its way. Clearly, the F30 is not as focused as the 3-series once was, but there are worse things than to be really really good at everything. There were things that my e46 and e90 were just bad at - but they were of course well designed and well made cars that enjoyed the solo spotlight - particularly due to the lack of serious competition at the time.

The F30 may no longer be the ultimate steering machine, but for me they still make the best driving sports sedan.
 
#382 ·
Beyond passion for the brand, and automobiles in general - I have to believe another reason for the length of this thread is the use of hyperbole or exaggeration to make a point. Its just another day on the internet :dunno: Is the F30 really your father's Oldsmobile disguised as a BMW?

I just don't think there is SUCH a lack of driving feel or enjoyment versus the competition/predecessors that it's going to doom the brand in any way. Sure, things are different, but what car has gone from one generation to the next without making material changes?

The F30, at least the way mine is optioned is fast, well balanced - and very fun to drive. I have no secret, sinister, ulterior motive in saying that. I got rid of 1 F30 335i, had the choice to go in a number of other directions, but ultimately came back. I really like BMWs, but I like good cars above all, and have no qualms about trying something else... I have no ego tied to a car or brand. I'll say it again, but my (if not all) F30 is very balanced and very fun, and carries the 3-series banner well.

The segment is coming out with fine cars, of which the F30 is one. Because the formula has changed doesn't suddenly mean BMW has lost its way. Clearly, the F30 is not as focused as the 3-series once was, but there are worse things than to be really really good at everything. There were things that my e46 and e90 were just bad at - but they were of course well designed and well made cars that enjoyed the solo spotlight - particularly due to the lack of serious competition at the time.

The F30 may no longer be the ultimate steering machine, but for me they still make the best driving sports sedan.
:thumbup:
 
#385 ·
I hope you all do realize that there's no particular reason why a 50-year-old woman could not be a an avid car enthusiast who knows exactly what she's driving and why. I wouldn't want anyone happening across this thread to suspect that BMW fanboys were ageist or sexist (not to say misogynist).
 
#388 ·
 
#408 ·
I cannot believe this thread is still going. Geez.

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This one will die off in a day or two, then Monday another thread will be posted questioning the handling or 'road feel' and we'll live it all over again.

It's the circle of life here in F30 world.

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#409 ·
boltjames said:
You are not inferior to 335i's in the eyes of the most important audience: Mr. & Mrs. Camry. These people see "BMW" and just die on the spot in a spontaneous-human-combustion kind of way. In fact, the only time you'll EVER feel inferior to a BMW owner is when you run into someone driving a 7, 6, 5, or the 3 Convertible. Anyone in those vehicles knows that he's in something superior in design and price to a 3 Family Sedan. Just avoid eye contact with them and you'll be okay. You're in New Jersey, so plenty of poor neighborhoods and Salvation Army parking lots to cruise to get your fill of jealous eyes.

BJ
I hate you.

BJ
 
#410 · (Edited)
Bringing the BMW Community Together!



At last you have posted something everyone here can agree on :thumbup:

(Only kidding, Only kidding - but there were some classic "CA vs. BJ" battles back in the day)

CA
 
#419 · (Edited)
Can everyone post their ages? I'm thinking at 28 I'm older than most by at least 14 years.

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#420 ·
Can everyone post their ages? I'm thinking at 28 I'm older than most by at least 14 years.

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I am not ashamed of my age, but age has very little to do with maturity. I have known some who were in their early 20s who were mature, and some who were in their mid 50s and who were not...

(I got you by almost 20 years though...)
 
#425 ·
Every 3 Series generation since 1976 has been softer and more refined than the previous generation car. It's just a fact. For example:



Car and Driver was bitching about the 3 Series being soft and more refined back in '99. Yet the car still continued to sell in great amounts and it's still an award winning car all these years later. I find my E46 to be the perfect ride/handling balance but it's also old and lacks modern technology so I will most likely welcome the F30 upgrade in the future.
 
#426 ·
Every 3 Series generation since 1976 has been softer and more refined than the previous generation car. It's just a fact. For example:

Car and Driver was bitching about the 3 Series being soft and more refined back in '99.

Yet the car still continued to sell in great amounts and it's still an award winning car all these years later. I find my E46 to be the perfect ride/handling balance but it's also old and lacks modern technology so I will most likely welcome the F30 upgrade in the future.
Thank you for that.

The F30 is a great car, and where it is a bit softer in ride it's off-the-charts firmer in interior design, luxury, and technology. I couldn't be happier.

BJ
 
#427 ·
It's hard to find faults (IMO) with the new F30 3 Series. It's a beautiful car; much better looking than the E90 with a nicer interior that is once again angled at the driver slightly to give you that cockpit feel that was more common with older BMW's. I drove a no-line 328i and I came away extremely impressed. Tons of power, comfortable interior, good technology, and comfortable ride. I admit sometimes the E46 suspension is a bit firm but it's never harsh or annoying. At 160k miles it still feels solid and that's what impresses me with BMW's the most. As they get older they become worn, clunkier, and expensive to maintain but they still drive and handle excellently.

In the future a 320i w/ Sport and Lighting packages will be in my future. Still a shame the corona rings aren't standard though. The cars looks silly without it.
 
#436 ·
I would also like to mention that back in '01 when BMW upped the boost on the steering racks all the magazines were outraged with the change and the public even thought the steering was too light so about halfway into the model year they lessened the boost and everybody was happy. So I can guarantee that at some point in the F30's run BMW will change up the steering and it will be fine. As for the N20 it wasn't silky smooth like my M52 but it was quieter and a hell of a lot faster than my car so you win some you loose some.
 
#442 ·
Lovely thread.

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