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Goodbye to the f30 - not a luxury vehicle, nor sporty enough

67K views 936 replies 113 participants last post by  BeemerGuy 
#1 ·
Hi all,

I recognize this is an f30 forum and I've spent a couple of years browsing/commenting as I considered and re-considered an f30 - and finally made my decision against it after another week in a loaner. I'm a BMWCCA member, a long-time forum member, and owner of 2 BMW's - I'm not a troll and my intent behind this thread is to bring to BMW's attention what areas they could improve upon to increase sales even more (perhaps in an LCI). Many on here have different priorities than me and have found great satisfaction in the f30 - I respect that.

The thread "Is the f30 a luxury car?" got me thinking about it: I want to love the f30, but the as-built price for me is around $55k. Do I get $55k worth of luxury, and sufficient sportiness? I received a 2013 f30 loaner this past week. I've put about 1,000 miles on F30 loaners - from fully loaded to stripped down XI versions. I've driven n20, n55, 6mt, and 8-speed auto versions. And I finally reached my answer of no....

I'll detail out the whys - my reasons are somewhat different from what you read before from others - but the bottom line is that the 3-series is no longer the best at anything, nor the best "cross-trainer". It's neither the most luxurious in the segment, nor the most sporty. Yet it is the most expensive.

Luxury/Overall Interior Experience

I very carefully went into this most recent loaner with an open mind to re-evaluate. I also had 3 relatives from all different backgrounds get in and without prejudice give me their opinions.

I didn't prime or lead any of these comments:

My father, who is middle income but whose past includes BMW and Porsche, exclaimed how beautiful the exterior was and then after getting inside said "How much does this cost?" and I told him $38k base. He then stated it didn't feel like a $38k car - lot of cheap materials in sight. This was primarily a reflection on the door card and door grab, the dash in front of the passenger, the center console look (this was a black on aluminum model), and the headliner/sun visor.

My brother, who is middle income but always owned cheap cars and drives them into the ground, felt it was nice but not impressive. Nothing stuck out at him as luxurious or very expensive, just overall decent.

My wife, who daily drives an e60 535xit, just felt it was cheap in comparison. She was especially disgusted by the sun visors which I hadn't remembered and when felt were worse than those I've felt in many $20k vehicles.

At the end of this week, my own opinions are similar. I love the layout and design, but the materials are in no way befitting a vehicle with an as-sold price of likely $45-52k for me. There are obvious signs of cheapness (i.e. sun visor).

In addition, wind noise is nicely suppressed until highway speed. It's a bit embarrassing on Bluetooth when cruising at 80. Road noise is more present than I'd like from even low speeds. The e90 was a bit quieter in both areas and found the right balance, BMW moved away here.

Where it is a luxury vehicle is in the driving experience itself. The composure of the f30 is simply phenomenal. It's sporting but isolated enough for luxury. The steering is fine - the different lines offer different steering feel options. It's not heavy for the sake of heavy, nor too light - and it's very responsive with a nice tight ratio.

Engines

The n20 and n55 engines are spectacular. The power and efficiency they offer, as well as rather simple ownership experience in terms of maintenance, is great. I'm glad the n20 is offered by BMW. And it loves to rev.

That being said, after putting about 500 miles on the n20 in an f30 - it's sound is completely unacceptable. Frequently at idle with the windows up and the radio off I could hear almost a diesel clatter type sound. And off idle/low engine speeds, the engine sounds like crap. As the rev it out, the induction sound is poor. And this is windows up - meaning I can't get away from it. I would do as others have done and stick an intake and exhaust on this vehicle just to tune the sound of the engine.

I've owned 2.0 liter and 2.0 liter turbo engines. The only engine that sounded worse was the 2.0 liter turbo engine in a 2002-2005 Subaru WRX. In fact, Subaru's 2.5 liter turbo engine sounded better than this and that engine was agricultural as well.

The N20 is a phenomenal engine that produces a sound I'd find distasteful in a $25k car - let alone in a $38k+ vehicle. The n55 is fitting, but no longer the star engine for this class of vehicles.

Steering

I find it to be perfectly fine and it can be tuned with different lines, wheels/tires, suspension options, and switching off run-flats. This is good solid steering. Cadillac's ATS does it better, but otherwise this is best in class.

I noticed a weird lag between my sharply turning the wheel, suddenly, and the response - but I blame that on very cold weather + all seasons.

Braking

Classic 3-series braking. A bit touchy up top, but otherwise firm, predictable, and easily modulated. This was probably the single best element of this vehicle - besides being touchy in low-speeds, this is simply an outstanding stock braking system.

Chassis/Suspension

The chassis is the star of the f30. It's so solid yet so responsive. It's sporty and luxurious. It is best in class to me and finds the best balance.

Overall Experience

I've driven Infiniti, Lexus, MB C-class, Audi A4, Cadillac ATS, and of course BMW. The 3-series has always previously been the benchmark - the blend of both luxury and sportiness that defined the segment. It wasn't always the fastest, nor the most luxurious, but the common theme of "the sum of its parts" was the most further along in both was the case.

I don't feel that way about the f30 now though. I really enjoy the design, the layout, the space, the features. I WANT to love it. I wanted to lease or buy CPO, perhaps even do European delivery.

But the way I want to build it it would be $55k-ish. And it's just not giving me a $55k experience.

I'm going to stick around for this thread and peruse in the future, maybe check in on some other things, but otherwise I'll be waiting to see what the f80 m3 offers with a full leather interior and other upgrades.

Thanks for reading this and I welcome thoughts and feedback. I don't mind being challenged.
 
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#2 ·
My only real disappointment with the F30 is the interior quality (assembly and materials). We also have a 2013 C250 (6 year old platform!) and the C has a MUCH nicer interior with MB TEX than my Lux Line F30 does with Dakota leather.

Where the BMW shines is the N20 and 8 speed auto. Nothing can compete right now. The C250 feels like a traditional MB - deliberate. solid, and impervious. But also stubborn. The F30 feels so light by comparison. Pros and Cons to that of course.
 
#3 · (Edited)
My father, who is middle income but whose past includes BMW and Porsche, exclaimed how beautiful the exterior was and then after getting inside said "How much does this cost?" and I told him $38k base. He then stated it didn't feel like a $38k car - lot of cheap materials in sight.
He could have said that for each 3-series of the past. Cheap interior is not unusual for a 3-series. Yet the F30 generally improved in that area.

That being said, after putting about 500 miles on the n20 in an f30 - it's sound is completely unacceptable.
It sure is. When you are used to an endearing M54 (or N52 not 328i), this engine reminds a Civic or Camry 4cyl. I have been in a 2014 428i and saw no real improvement. Fortunately there is the N55.

Having said all of this, where do I find a better premium compact vehicle than the F30? :dunno: IS350? ATS? C400? They all have their shortfalls too.

So far my plan A is still to find a F30 335i and customize it ("re-engineer" it lol) again. You are very lucky in the USA to get a 335i for only 43400$. 8K$ more here.

The F80 is another class of vehicle... likely to be 65-70K$
 
#4 · (Edited)
Saintor - I owned a 2.0 liter Honda K20-series engine and it was wonderful sounding at all engine speeds (idle to 8000rpms). They did a very nice job tuning the induction and exhaust sounds. Audi's 2.0t doesn't sound great, but Cadillac's sounds decent. So does Mercedes. I could go on but the point is BMW let this one go - maybe to promote people into the n55 given how sweet the n20 is. IDK.

Btw, I agree about 3-series of the past and my father's comments. I mean, the e46 for it's time was quite good but that's about it. That being said, he recently shopped among Cadillac and Lexus and others and for a $38k base price was disappointed in the interior.

Edit: Oh and PS we'll see about the f80. I agree it's going to be a $65k base price vehicle. I'm expecting a whole different experience for that jump, but we shall see. Nonetheless, the f30 is donating great bones to the f80. If the f80 doesn't cut it, I'm probably going over to Porsche. They are having a great run of reliability and have really done a nice job taking athletic luxury in their road cars to new heights.
 
#7 · (Edited)
The Honda engine was a gem but made zero power down low and had to be revved to it's max to make power. Fine for a small demographic but even Honda thought it was too specialized. Not a good engine for a daily driver for 99% of it's market. Personally I like the sound of the N20 in my 2014. It's throaty and sounds nice. Quite different from the N52 but I have zero complaints.

As far as the interior, loaners are generally a terrible way to judge a car. My N20 Sport Line with red leather and anthracite trim is beautiful inside. Nothing cheap at all IMO.
 
#5 ·
But the way I want to build it it would be $55k-ish. And it's just not giving me a $55k experience.

I'm going to stick around for this thread and peruse in the future, maybe check in on some other things, but otherwise I'll be waiting to see what the f80 m3 offers with a full leather interior and other upgrades.

Thanks for reading this and I welcome thoughts and feedback. I don't mind being challenged.
I agree the interior could be nicer for 55k. But when I compare vs my E46 and E36 which were about the same in inflation-adjusted dollars, the quality and materials are roughly the same. The sun visor comment I find puzzling - maybe I've never experienced a true premium sun visor but I don't see any problem with it. I actually like it better than the one in my E46.

Anyway I'm curious as to which car you find better for under 55k? You're waiting for the M3, which will probably be 70-80k loaded with full leather luxo interior, so you're actually looking at the next price bracket up (that's 5-series and Cayman territory). For under 55k I'm not sure there's small sedan that's better than a loaded F30 for luxury, design, and performance.
 
#602 ·
Don't agree about the E46. I had several and I thought they had the nicest interior of any 3 series (and the best styling). The E90 was spartan in comparison and rather ugly. Probably the best 3 series in other respects though (great handling, steering and power).

I find the F30 interior a bit cheap looking and I hate the steering (hate all the F chassis steering). Like the exterior styling though, particularly the wagon.

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#6 ·
For $55k I find the Audi S4 to be a better vehicle in terms of luxury and similar in sport (albeit it's a heavier and heftier vehicle). For $40-45k, the Cadillac ATS is more sporting and offers almost the same level of luxury at $10k less than a similarly equipped 3-series.

For $48-50k, the Lexus IS350 offers a more luxurious experience and similar level of sport as the current f30 335i with 8-speed automatic. - Again, at a $5-8k discount. I don't care for Lexus' exterior design as much, but again, that's subjective and at some point I don't LOVE the f30 exterior design so much that it blinds me to other things.

So bottom line is for less money I can get different flavors that offer a near-interior experience with more sporting chassis/steering (Cadillac), or a near-as-sporting experience with more luxury (Audi, Lexus).

So what am I paying 10-20% more to get in the f30? And, for me at least, the extra $10k to get into the $65k realm is possible and likely if I feel I can get that much more vehicle.

Hope that helps answer your question.
 
#9 ·
For $55k I find the Audi S4 to be a better vehicle in terms of luxury and similar in sport (albeit it's a heavier and heftier vehicle). For $40-45k, the Cadillac ATS is more sporting and offers almost the same level of luxury at $10k less than a similarly equipped 3-series.

For $48-50k, the Lexus IS350 offers a more luxurious experience and similar level of sport as the current f30 335i with 8-speed automatic. - Again, at a $5-8k discount. I don't care for Lexus' exterior design as much, but again, that's subjective and at some point I don't LOVE the f30 exterior design so much that it blinds me to other things.

So bottom line is for less money I can get different flavors that offer a near-interior experience with more sporting chassis/steering (Cadillac), or a near-as-sporting experience with more luxury (Audi, Lexus).
I considered those cars as well, so I understand where you're coming from. I applaud Caddy and Lexus for doggedly pursuing the 3-series for the past 15 years or so. For my dollars they're not quite there yet, but YMMV. I certainly wouldn't put down anybody who chose one of those (or an Audi).
 
#8 ·
Michael - Can't say I disagree or agree with you. The engine made 90% of it's (small) torque from pretty low in the powerband. But, more importantly, it was geared very short - so actual power sent to the wheels was far more than indicated. It was a pretty peppy little motor when tied to a ~2800 pound vehicle. Not fast, but definitely fun.

In terms of the loaner interior, yes, it hurts that I've had stripped down versions. However, I've also had loaners that were fully loaded 328xi's. The base seats in any non-sport version are terrible, the sport seats are better. The trim pieces help. But aside from that, how exactly would the built-up versions give me a better impression of the interior? The grab handles are still hard plastic and vinyl, the sunvisors are still super cheap plastic, etc.

Not knocking, genuinely curious as to your thoughts.
 
#39 ·
Michael - Can't say I disagree or agree with you. The engine made 90% of it's (small) torque from pretty low in the powerband. But, more importantly, it was geared very short - so actual power sent to the wheels was far more than indicated. It was a pretty peppy little motor when tied to a ~2800 pound vehicle. Not fast, but definitely fun.

In terms of the loaner interior, yes, it hurts that I've had stripped down versions. However, I've also had loaners that were fully loaded 328xi's. The base seats in any non-sport version are terrible, the sport seats are better. The trim pieces help. But aside from that, how exactly would the built-up versions give me a better impression of the interior? The grab handles are still hard plastic and vinyl, the sunvisors are still super cheap plastic, etc.

Not knocking, genuinely curious as to your thoughts.
I guess we just see these details differently. First of all I think it's extremely important to get a trim other than aluminum. My anthracite trim looks rich and luxurious. There is but a thin strip of aluminum as the finisher. I don't find the visors to be much of an issue and find it odd that this perception carries much weight. The door pulls are substantial and nicely molded. What do you expect them to be made of?

It's all about what you expect. My car retailed for $43K and meets my expectations. Frankly, I see no point in spending $55K on a 3 series unless it's a 435 convertible. All you are adding is technology and toys. This is a car that starts as a 320i at $33k and is built to that price point. It's not a luxury car in the sense that it's richly appointed. You are better off with a 5 series at that price point.

Also, none of it's competitors are better all around cars. The ATS is the sportiest but too small for a true family car. The 3 series family is still the best car in it's class.
 
#11 ·
My last post here, so...

I get the point of not enough luxury, especially on a stripped loaner. I like the interior of my car at the 320 price point or what I paid at $38k, but $50-65k, it's a let down.

But your title of not sporty enough...again, have you spent any real time in a 704/RWD car with proper tires, or you just get to surmise the sporting nature of the car by driving XI/base cars? I am willing to bet you have not put a mile on a 335 MSport 6mt RWD with or without DHP.

So again, famously, this board wants to write off the car when never properly experiencing one.

When I went with money in my hand, I found the dealer with a RWD 6mt Sport. After that experience, driving a variety of poorly equipped loaners was funny, but I had a look at both sides of the F30 experience.

Enjoy your cars guys!
 
#12 ·
My last post here, so...

I get the point of not enough luxury, especially on a stripped loaner. I like the interior of my car at the 320 price point or what I paid at $38k, but $50-65k, it's a let down.

But your title of not sporty enough...again, have you spent any real time in a 704/RWD car with proper tires, or you just get to surmise the sporting nature of the car by driving XI/base cars? I am willing to bet you have not put a mile on a 335 MSport 6mt RWD with or without DHP.

So again, famously, this board wants to write off the car when never properly experiencing one.

When I went with money in my hand, I found the dealer with a RWD 6mt Sport. After that experience, driving a variety of poorly equipped loaners was funny, but I had a look at both sides of the F30 experience.

Enjoy your cars guys!
I thought you said goodbye last year?
 
#22 ·
So I gather that if BMW upgraded the visors and interior door handles the OP would be happy. If those are his two primary complaints were doing pretty good.

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The interior door cards, sun visor, headliner, quality of leather at this price point, plastics around shifter/cupholders, and a bit more noise damping.

In the n20, tune the induction and exhaust sounds.

And for God's sake, put xenons on every model.

Yes, that would do a lot for me with my "luxury" complaints.

For sport, they are sporty - no doubt about it. They aren't class-leading by any means anymore, which means they are sporty in an undifferentiated manner.

Which is why I'm looking forward to the f80 - it's a modified chassis, heavily modified/richened up interior, etc.
 
#18 ·
Interesting thread. A lot comes down to how you spec the car. Our Sport Line with its black leather, red stitching, dark wood trim and pearl gloss finishers certainly doesn't feel "cheap". In fact, the only thing I dislike is the thin Sport steering wheel. That would have been an issue with M Sport, but Mrs. Quack didn't like the body kit.

She loves the car, as do my 18 year old twins. More so than our 535 M Sport, or the multiple X5's and other BMW's which preceded it. (Though our M3 was in a different league altogether).

In your pricing analysis, I think you failed to factor in the value of the free maintenance. We did not cross shop Lexus or Caddy, but the delta of maintaining those vs. the F30 needs to be considered.

Would I have been happier in an F11 wagon vs. an F31 wagon? Yes. But the F11 would have cost +/- $80,000 if it had been available, vs. $60,000 for our F31. I honestly don't think I would have been $20,000 happier.

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#24 ·
Where it is a luxury vehicle is in the driving experience itself. The composure of the f30 is simply phenomenal. It's sporting but isolated enough for luxury. The steering is fine - the different lines offer different steering feel options. It's not heavy for the sake of heavy, nor too light - and it's very responsive with a nice tight ratio.
:thumbup:

Hello to the F30. To me (and IMO many others here), our specifically optioned F30 (bought or leased) is sporty and luxurious for daily, twisty or long drives which we'll enjoy for at least 3 years.
 
#38 ·
Love my $55K M Sport although I paid dealer invoice, not sticker. I would agree the 5 Series has a more lux cabin but given the competition I would buy the M Sport again over any other $55K fare. Love the way my car performs, feels, and looks, and the engine rev doesn't bother me in the least.

Different horses for different courses but my M sport makes me smile! :bigpimp:
 
#45 ·
Joe,

Is it possible your 5 series ownership has sort of skewed your expectations of the 3 series? Like you I've had (sold mine) and E39 M5 and I also had an E39 530i. The step up in luxury on the 5 series is significant (probably its defining quality), and when you get back into a 3 it can be jarring. My own E36 M3 is a stark reminder of that!
 
#53 ·
Yes, it's definitely possible. I'm used to extensive leather and nicer materials throughout. However, I am having a hard time reconciling commonly optioned prices of $46-55k for the 3-series with the $33k base price interior and road noise.

My 3rd vehicle is a top-end VW touareg v10 TDI as well, which was/is a truly over-engineered and quite luxurious vehicle. And it's a VW.

Lastly, when I step into a 1-series it is very close to 3-series level. In fact, I'd say the 3 is closer to the 1 than the 5 in terms of interior feel.

Anyway, bottom line, yes you could be right.
 
#47 ·
The 3 Series, and most particularly the more recent 3 Series, has walked the tightrope between being a luxury car and a performance (sporty) car. When you walk that tightrope there are always going to be some that think it is not luxurious enough and there will be some that think it is not sporty enough.

Bottom line is that it has never been either the ultimate luxury car or the ultimate performance car. It has always been a balance between the two and it seems that the F30 has to a certain extent move away from performance compared to earlier iterations. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of personal preference.

You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

CA
 
#51 ·
The 3 Series, and most particularly the more recent 3 Series, has walked the tightrope between being a luxury car and a performance (sporty) car. When you walk that tightrope there are always going to be some that think it is not luxurious enough and there will be some that think it is not sporty enough.

Bottom line is that it has never been either the ultimate luxury car or the ultimate performance car. It has always been a balance between the two and it seems that the F30 has to a certain extent move away from performance compared to earlier iterations. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of personal preference.

You can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time.

CA
Bingo.

The ultimate indicator of whether or not BMW has tipped the scales too far one way vs. the other is Sales. Right now, BMW is setting record numbers and that's in the face of the most severe and significant competition in company history.

So, yeah, I'd say BMW hit the ball out of the park with the F30. Will it turn off enthusiasts? Absolutely. Are there 1000 potential luxury buyers out there for every 1 enthusiast out there? Yup.

BJ
 
#55 ·
BJ,

You are basically saying you put yourself in the same crowd as those who think it's something special to have a coach bag. Even though there are plenty of folks with Coach bags paying with a SNAP card.

The sales of the f30 and BMW as a whole have, for some quite time, been driven by stripper model low lease rates partly subsidized by BMW with at times artificially high residuals. They have moved mass-market. When a luxury brand moves mass market, it doesn't maintain it's same special exclusivity.
 
#58 ·
BJ,

You are basically saying you put yourself in the same crowd as those who think it's something special to have a coach bag. Even though there are plenty of folks with Coach bags paying with a SNAP card.

The sales of the f30 and BMW as a whole have, for some quite time, been driven by stripper model low lease rates partly subsidized by BMW with at times artificially high residuals. They have moved mass-market. When a luxury brand moves mass market, it doesn't maintain it's same special exclusivity.
But it's been decades since BMW and any of it's competitors have been exclusive.
 
#64 ·
I had a 1998 Celica for many years. Its dash and door penal material look and feel many times more luxurious than the BMW material. The BMW dash material, though soft touch, look like black molded rubber. The Celica dash and door panels look like they're wrapped in midnight blue leather.

I think all "luxury" cars should at least have vinyl dash.
 
#68 ·
I am in the same shoes as the OP. Was planning on buying an F30 until spending 1,000 miles in a loaner 328.

I challenge anybody to point out a piece of the interior that is higher quality than the E90. I'm not talking about design, I'm talking about the quality of materials and construction. Every single piece of the F30 interior has been cheapened and hollowed out.

My garage door opener slid under the seat of my loaner, and when I looked under there to find it, I was shocked at how thin and cheaply made the seat was. The entire bottom was hollowed out.

The F30 to me just does not feel like a solid car. It seems like they made it lighter by hollowing out the interior and removing sound dampening rather than making it lighter through use of lightweight metals like MB is doing with the new C-Class. As the OP said, the F30 is LOUD at highway speeds. Road noise is ridiculous in this class of car. I even confirmed this with a decibel meter to confirm I wasn't going crazy.

In the past, I've understood the premium pricing of a BMW when others could not. But there's just nothing about the F30 that makes this car worth the sticker price relative to the competition. It is just not the quality car it once was.

Also consider that the A4 and C-class are a generation behind the F30. I expect these cars are going to crap all over the F30 when they are released. God knows they'll have exponentially better interiors, and it won't be hard to match or exceed the F30's driving dynamics. So then why buy the BMW?
 
#72 ·
I challenge anybody to point out a piece of the interior that is higher quality than the E90. I'm not talking about design, I'm talking about the quality of materials and construction. Every single piece of the F30 interior has been cheapened and hollowed out.
No, other way around.

I challenge you to point out a piece of the interior that is lower quality than the E90. And I don't mean your perception, I mean in fact. Get a micrometer, get a decibel meter, post some actual facts, then we'll see if your point is valid. Plastic is thinner you say? Carpet is looser you say? Wood, aluminum, seat belts, screws, clips, lightbulbs, get the data, prove you are correct.

As someone with over 100K miles in E9X and F30 platforms I can tell you quite authoritatively that both cars use the same caliber materials and the F30 has a quieter cabin. I will also tell you that BMW wouldn't add $3,000 worth of E90 options as standard equipment like iDrive, premium audio, split folding seats, HomeLink, Bluetooth, iPod, and turn around and shave $0.05 cents worth of plastic from a door panel and $0.02 cents worth of sound foam from an A pillar. You have no concept of how little money these things cost, especially to a mass producer and consumer of these raw materials to a scale that BMW commands.

The stuff you E9X folks make up to justify your cars is pretty funny. "So what if you get iDrive for free, your door panels are thinner! Ha ha ha! We win!" Nope.

BJ
 
#71 · (Edited)
Whether Audi plays in the same league as BMW is a matter of perception. In US Audi will always be a glorified VW that sometimes accelerates on its own. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Its actually very funny, I remember when I used to pull up in my A6 or later in the B8 S4 and folks did not even know what these cars were. Now, when they see a BMW roundel (regardless how old the car is) it spells money and success to them. This perception nonsense is just too funny....

Same story with engines, here in US average Joe will preach how he hates cafe requirements and how a luxury vehicle should have at least 6 pots and 5.0 displacement. Some brave souls would even claim that small engines do not belong in BMWs.

Before we throw a blank statement about Audi or small displacement engines we need to understand that US is not the only car market. In Europe, BMW sold small engines for decades and in public view Audi does compete with BMW (even more so on Asian markets).

Besides ignorance, perhaps a desire of exclusivity has something to do with this blind glorification of BMW. I hate to burst anyone's bubble but a BMW is just another put put on the road just like Audi. I see more bimmers in NYC than chevys.

Lambo or Rolls will get you exclusivity, but definitely not a BMW.
 
#73 ·
Whether Audi plays in the same league as BMW is a matter of perception. In US Audi will always be a glorified VW

Its actually very funny, I remember when I used to pull up in my A6 or later in the B8 S4 and folks did not even know what these cars were. Now, when they see a BMW roundel (regardless how old the car is) it spells money and success to them. This perception nonsense is just too funny....
The 'perception nonsense' isn't funny. It's BMW's business model.

Millions of people for dozens of years have knowingly traded features for badges countless times, eschewed the fully-loaded Acura they could have owned for the same money as the stripped BMW simply because it had less prestige and made them look weaker in the executive parking lot.

And we can extend that to any element of the BMW ownerbase we like. Soccer moms give up spacious 8 passenger minivan seating and power doors to get into a crammed X5. Enthusiasts pass on driving cutting-edge performance modded Subaru's and Mitsubishi's to get into a bloated and conflicted M3.

There is nothing wrong with this, by the way. Except denying that it exists.

BJ
 
#85 · (Edited)
And it looks like I am too old to drive a BMW. Guess I need to go get a Cadillac.:cry:
[/QUOTE]

Now that I look at that chart more closely I see that I am too old, too poor and too uneducated to drive any of them.
I'm sorry I posted the damn list!
 
#80 · (Edited)
OP- I'm also on the fence about the F30. But the current crop of competitors all have worse fatal flaws. Perhaps the new C class and next-gen A4/S4 will be true game changers. Still, it is hard to resist the appeal of BMW's subsidized leases and additional discounts available with BMWCCA and ED. Despite its age, only the S4 tempts me. But I'm not willling to pay the Audi lease premium for one, nor am i willing to buy one outright. Nonetheless, its more a feeling of "win by default" rather than "gotta have it".

Interesting that you thought Cadillac's 2.0T sounded better. They seem to get singled out for criticism in that department w/ their 4. And their V6 isn't much liked either. I still think BMW is winning the powertrain wars when you take into account power, smoothness and efficiency. And I'm sure the F30 LCI will bring a 325/330/340 with commensurate power bumps to maintain their lead over the competition.

Like you, I'd love a Porsche. Have been impressed with every recent Porsche I've driven or sat in. Would be great if they came out with a sub-Panamera sedan similar to the Pajun's position relative to the Cayenne. Now that they are part of the VW family this is entirely possibly. At the very least, they could lend Audi some chassis tuning help which could make the next-gen Audi's clearly superior.

I do think the F80 M3 will be spectacular. BUt if you were looking at 55k 3 series, odds are you wn't be happy with a base 65k M3. Knowing BMW, it will lack many of the things you'd find in even a 50k 3 series unless you add another 10k on. Expect items like extended leather to be costly extras as well. IF that's still in your budget, great.
 
#114 ·
OP- I'm also on the fence about the F30. But the current crop of competitors all have worse fatal flaws. Perhaps the new C class and next-gen A4/S4 will be true game changers. Still, it is hard to resist the appeal of BMW's subsidized leases and additional discounts available with BMWCCA and ED. Despite its age, only the S4 tempts me. But I'm not willling to pay the Audi lease premium for one, nor am i willing to buy one outright. Nonetheless, its more a feeling of "win by default" rather than "gotta have it".
This is EXACTLY how I feel about the F30. It wins its class by default but without the "gotta have it" factor. I've had my E90 335i for 7 years now and I'm starting to get the itch but when I line it up against a new F30, there's nothing about the newer car that screams "get it!"

If they can up the horsepower in the IS350 to give that car the same straight line speed as a 335i (whether it be E90 or F30), that will be my winner butfor now, it's impossible for me to swap my current car for something slower. The N54 spoiled me.
 
#84 ·
I will say that in 2008, BMW really stepped up the LCI of the e60 5-series and improved the interior materials and design - particularly the door card as a whole.

The f30 is off my list right now, but I will watch closely both the f80 and the 2015 f30, when I'm expecting a mid-cycle refresh and upgrades.
 
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