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  #1  
Old 12-11-2015, 08:04 AM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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Need ideas. Engine won't start but should

How can you tell if the throttle body and the idle control valve are working properly? I am going to take out both if possible and clean them. When I step on the pedal should the throttle body open? If it doesn't what doe that mean?

Update: I got the car up and running by disconnecting the MAF sensor. Now the gentlemen who recommended I try this is saying that means it could be the MAF, or it could be a large vacuum leak in the engine. Does anyone know what that could mean?

UPDATE: I took it in to avoid the hassle of removing the airboot again. They did that, cleaned the ICV , and plugged in a working MAF sensor and sure enough it worked. Now I need to find a cheap MAF sensor.

If you want to know the history of troubleshooting on my car, it is below:
https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=885279

Last edited by gonrico; 12-14-2015 at 12:06 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-11-2015, 08:41 AM
Northof49 Northof49 is offline
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Sorry if I'm not catching the drift of your question, but the fuel injectors control the flow of fuel, and open based on electrical pulses they receive. Once the rail has fuel pressure, the fuel should reach all the injectors along the rail. The pulse can be measured, but it's best measured with an oscilloscope, as its of a short duration and at likely only half the cranking rpms.
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:40 AM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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Originally Posted by Northof49 View Post
Sorry if I'm not catching the drift of your question, but the fuel injectors control the flow of fuel, and open based on electrical pulses they receive. Once the rail has fuel pressure, the fuel should reach all the injectors along the rail. The pulse can be measured, but it's best measured with an oscilloscope, as its of a short duration and at likely only half the cranking rpms.
It seems like more than one injector should fail for the engine to not turn on? If the level lies in the injection then does that leave electrical as the most likely problem?

Another thing I'm considering is whether the idle control valve has seized so I'm going to try cleaning it. When the engine is off will the throttle move the throttle control valve? I was wondering to test it when I open it up. That might have seized as well.
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:48 AM
Northof49 Northof49 is offline
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Is there a safe way to check for spark? Can you pull a plug and see if it has any smell of gasoline? It's not that simple to pull a plug on these engines. I'm surprised there isn't a check engine light coming on if there is some electrical fault.
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Old 12-11-2015, 10:25 AM
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vintage42 vintage42 is offline
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Can we go back to the very beginning? How long ago was the engine last OK, when it started and ran perfectly?
Then what happened? What symptoms made you think fuel pressure was the problem, causing you to replace the pump and filter?
How did you test fuel pressure - with a gauge, screwed into the fitting on the fuel rail?
The readings seemed erratic; might there have been a problem in testing, such that fuel pressure was never the problem?
Z3 fuel filters do not clog, and fuel pumps that run don't fail to start an engine, and you did hear your old pump run.

The idle valve would not likely prevent starting, though clogged injectors might.
Again, it would be helpful to know the history of how the non-starting problem developed, whether it happened gradually or suddenly, whether there were other problems with idling or running.
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Old 12-11-2015, 12:50 PM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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Originally Posted by vintage42 View Post
Can we go back to the very beginning? How long ago was the engine last OK, when it started and ran perfectly?
Then what happened? What symptoms made you think fuel pressure was the problem, causing you to replace the pump and filter?
How did you test fuel pressure - with a gauge, screwed into the fitting on the fuel rail?
The readings seemed erratic; might there have been a problem in testing, such that fuel pressure was never the problem?
Z3 fuel filters do not clog, and fuel pumps that run don't fail to start an engine, and you did hear your old pump run.

The idle valve would not likely prevent starting, though clogged injectors might.
Again, it would be helpful to know the history of how the non-starting problem developed, whether it happened gradually or suddenly, whether there were other problems with idling or running.
The engine was last okay about a month ago. It ran fine and I never noticed any real problems. Come a long trip I return and the car would not start. So to answer your question, it happened suddenly. The car never had problems idling. It had the issue where it would crank, have initial combustion and then die. A mechanic buddy of mine tested the fuel pressure using an actual fuel pressure gauge on actual fuel rail fitting to see if that was the problem. It wasn't reading any fuel pressure... Like not even a fuel pressure of 2 psi. But it would get some pressure into the rail because the engine had SOME fuel for the initial key crank.

The video in the post was taken during this time that I had fuel pressure issues.

I replaced the fuel pump and fuel filter after this. The fuel filter was the original from 15 years ago and so was the fuel pump. After this I could clearly hear the pump prime. My mechanic friend tested the fuel pressure again and it read a healthy 50 psi as is necessary.

What's very weird is that now that I have fuel pressure the car start attempts sound the same as before, although there wasn't any fuel pressure. I looked at the airflow boot that connects to the idle control valve and the throttle body and noticed a huge hole. I replaced that rubber part and connected it up again and am having the same issue.


At the moment I believe that the hole has soiled the throttle or ICV to the point where it's not functioning properly so I'm going to remove and clean them. If they were dirty enough without regular use they may have seized from the grime. I will clean those. Additionally I believe the car's Adaptations may have programmed the car to run with a hole so I'm looking at how to clear those. I found this here which I'm wondering if it works for the z3.

http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...anically-stuck

Last edited by gonrico; 12-11-2015 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 12-11-2015, 07:27 PM
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vintage42 vintage42 is offline
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Your first post in the first thread said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonrico View Post
... I initially did the replacement because the fuel pressure was almost nothing... after replacing the... fuel pump... no effect on the fuel pressure...
Then later you said the replacement pump did have pressure.
Is it possible you never did have a fuel pressure or fuel pump problem, and your friend just had trouble reading the gauge?
Because none of what you have done so far has had any effect on the problem, which is that the engine was fine until the day after a long trip, when on the first attempt to start, it cranked and fired a few revolutions and then died. And has been that way ever since.

Neither a filter, pump, air boot, or idle control valve would account for firing a few revolutions and then dying. A few days ago you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonrico View Post
... I took the OBD codes after to get some insight. I read about the two codes coinciding with a possible air boot hole and indeed I found them...
How were you able to get those codes, and what were they? Has the new air boot cleared them? Are there any other codes now appearing as you try to start the engine?

Last edited by vintage42; 12-11-2015 at 07:30 PM.
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Old 12-11-2015, 10:26 PM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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Quote:
Is it possible you never did have a fuel pressure or fuel pump problem, and your friend just had trouble reading the gauge?
Honestly I'm not sure why the pressure took a while to read. It could very well be that it was being read wrong or it wasn't fully seated on the rail. For now at least we know that it is not the problem since the rail gets pressure.

Quote:
Because none of what you have done so far has had any effect on the problem, which is that the engine was fine until the day after a long trip
I want to clarify that the long trip was not in my car. The car had been sitting for a couple of weeks and upon my return I was having the issues.

Quote:
Neither a filter, pump, air boot, or idle control valve would account for firing a few revolutions and then dying. A few days ago you said: How were you able to get those codes, and what were they? Has the new air boot cleared them? Are there any other codes now appearing as you try to start the engine?
The new air boot did not clear the errors. I cleared them after fixing the problem hoping that new errors would be able to tell me something. The previous codes were p1189 and p1250. I believe I had had those errors before, but they would come back and go away intermittently weeks at a time. To be honest I had those errors for probably over a year. For every month they would appear for a couple of days and then self clear. It is frustrating that I have nothing more telling than a pre-existing problem.

A theory that two people proposed elsewhere is that it is the EWS. I didn't even think about that, but it could be since it was rain storming during my absence and it could have ruined it from the car getting soaked?

Last edited by gonrico; 12-11-2015 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 12-11-2015, 10:38 PM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Northof49 View Post
Is there a safe way to check for spark? Can you pull a plug and see if it has any smell of gasoline? It's not that simple to pull a plug on these engines. I'm surprised there isn't a check engine light coming on if there is some electrical fault.
I imagine you are right about that pulling a code.
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Old 12-12-2015, 04:00 AM
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vintage42 vintage42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonrico View Post
... The car had been sitting for a couple of weeks and upon my return I was having the issues... A theory that two people proposed elsewhere is that it is the EWS... it could be since it was rain storming during my absence and it could have ruined it from the car getting soaked?
Sitting for weeks and a soaked interior sure changes the picture.
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Old 12-12-2015, 09:24 AM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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Originally Posted by vintage42 View Post
Sitting for weeks and a soaked interior sure changes the picture.
I got the car up and running by disconnecting the MAF sensor. Now the gentlemen who recommended I try this is saying that means it could be the MAF, or it could be a large vacuum leak in the engine. Does anyone know what that could mean?
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Old 12-12-2015, 11:55 AM
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vintage42 vintage42 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonrico View Post
I got the car up and running by disconnecting the MAF sensor...
Post that in the other forum and I bet that rf900rkw will have an answer to the problem. Maybe just clean or replace the MAF sensor.

Last edited by vintage42; 12-12-2015 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:07 PM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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Do you guys know which MAF sensor to get? I want to get the orignal and read that the Hyundai equivalent is the same. Which part number is that and where to order it from?
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Old 12-14-2015, 12:24 PM
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vintage42 vintage42 is offline
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I would want an OEM part from the BMW parts system. If I knew your engine, or the last seven of your VIN, I could show you the diagram with the PN, and show you the part on a vendor site.
It is possible that the BMW OEM for MAFs is febi, for instance, who could make the same MAF for sale by auto chain stores, and by BMW, and by Hyundai. In which case the cheapest part would be from NAPA, the next would be from Hyundai, and most expensive would be from BMW.
But how can you be sure that a febi (or whatever) MAF you find at NAPA or Hyundai is the same one sold by BMW? Three different part numbers.
And what if febi (or whoever) is required to a higher level of quality control for the MAF they make for BMW?
For a MAF, I would want the best part that money could buy.

Last edited by vintage42; 12-14-2015 at 01:12 PM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 02:39 PM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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If I knew your engine, or the last seven of your VIN... the best part that money could buy.
I'll be honest I'm confused by what you said (febi?). From my research I found that bmw MAFS and Hyundai MAFS is the same 5WK96050 Siemens part.

Is that right or could there be variations of the same part number as your post seems to imply if I'm reading it right?

http://www.yoyopart.com/oem/75461/hy...ml#interchange

Z3 2000 2,8 roadster
last seven: LF42985

Last edited by gonrico; 12-14-2015 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:27 PM
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vintage42 vintage42 is offline
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I didn't say the mfr was febi, I said febi was a for instance, a whatever.
http://www.febi.com/febius/car-divis...echnology.html

As you found, the actual mfr is Siemens.
You have also found that Siemens 5WK96050 = Hyundai 28164-37100 = BMW 13621432356.

As I found after purchase, that BMW 17111728907 = Behr 376713121
https://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Sit...h/17111728907/

A question is what if Seimens or Behr are required to manufacture and inspect to a higher level of quality control for the parts they make for BMW?
In other words, are the BMW part stickers and bar codes on the Seimens MAF worth the extra cost?

Last edited by vintage42; 12-14-2015 at 05:31 PM.
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:43 PM
gonrico gonrico is offline
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That's a valid question. In my experience in manufacturing it would generally be cheaper to make all sensors higher quality and produce one kind rather than a v.1 v.2 and v.2 for the different requirements. Also I believe different quality requirements would fall under different part numbers for the manufacturers of those parts. I've seen good things from people who have posted about this so I'm opting for the low $130 one given that the bmw is 3x that.
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Old 12-14-2015, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
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... I'm opting for the low $130 one given that the bmw is 3x that.
That's the same price and difference that I found in the Behr radiator and the Behr/BMW radiator.
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