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  #1  
Old 05-10-2017, 07:53 PM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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Not insulting (fair) offer on a new M240i?

I live in a pretty small town, only one dealer within 75 miles. Salesman I'm working with is not only a really nice guy, he is nearly my neighbor and we know a lot of people in common. I don't want to just pay MSRP, but this is not a situation where I'm looking to show him a "meet it or I'm going elsewhere" price. So, what's the protocol here? I'm not looking for exact price to offer (haven't figured out all the options yet), just the amount over invoice that will work, and won't leave me trying to avoid this nice guy when I see him around town.

Thanks.
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Old 05-10-2017, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
I live in a pretty small town, only one dealer within 75 miles. Salesman I'm working with is not only a really nice guy, he is nearly my neighbor and we know a lot of people in common. I don't want to just pay MSRP, but this is not a situation where I'm looking to show him a "meet it or I'm going elsewhere" price. So, what's the protocol here? I'm not looking for exact price to offer (haven't figured out all the options yet), just the amount over invoice that will work, and won't leave me trying to avoid this nice guy when I see him around town.

Thanks.
Look on something like truecar and see what the average paid is and decide from there. That probably will meet your stated objective.
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  #3  
Old 05-10-2017, 08:47 PM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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I for one really appreciate your interest in wanting to be a respectful customer. It would be refreshing if more "big city folk" adopted your attitude.

First, as with any car acquisition, do your homework and due diligence. Get your ducks in a row. Know the numbers.

Having done your homework, you will have calculated estimated invoice on the car you want.

Make an appointment, which shows respect for the CA's time.

When you call to make the appointment you can offer to email your CA a copy of your build. And you can say, "I'm considering buying a BMW. Would you like the opportunity to try and put a deal together for me?"

When you meet, and the conversation turns to numbers, it is perfectly appropriate to ask, "Where in relation to invoice do y'all like to sell these M240's?"

Depending on the complexity of your desired deal (trade-in, credit status, lease/buy/finance) the conversation can be a consultation. You can ask, "Do you think it's better if I take my trade-in somewhere else to sell it or would you like the opportunity to evaluate my trade as part of any deal we might put together here?"

And, finally, it's okay to say straight out, "My preference is to stay local and give you the opportunity to sell me a car. Should I shop around or is your dealership in a position to offer me a competitive deal?"

Business is business, and professional car salespeople understand that it is your time and your money. Your CA neighbor would shop hard if he were buying, so why shouldn't you?

As I have said elsewhere, my mantra is I am giving the dealer the opportunity to sell me a car. What the dealer does with that opportunity is up to the dealer and is not my responsibility.

And yes, it's okay and decent to pay a few hundred bucks more to keep your business local. But there is no reason to seriously overpay, just because you're dealing with a 'neighbor.'

I hope this is helpful. You have succeeded in reminding us, once again, that it is always wise to be polite. Thank you.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
I live in a pretty small town, only one dealer within 75 miles. Salesman I'm working with is not only a really nice guy, he is nearly my neighbor and we know a lot of people in common. I don't want to just pay MSRP, but this is not a situation where I'm looking to show him a "meet it or I'm going elsewhere" price. So, what's the protocol here? I'm not looking for exact price to offer (haven't figured out all the options yet), just the amount over invoice that will work, and won't leave me trying to avoid this nice guy when I see him around town.

Thanks.
A few things to think about, 1) the M240i is selling well, 2) I agree on using Truecar, 3) there is a thread on this forum on how to figure out invoice on a car. Get your numbers together, and see what kind of deal you can work out. I for one am not the type that wants to squeeze every penny out of a deal, I always leave money on the table, people need to get paid, but I do want a nice deal.
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Old 05-10-2017, 11:51 PM
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To OP, rural or metro, and regardless what's said on forums, there is usually a prevailing market price per your local market. Truecar can be one way to find out that price, or ask around, or maybe the local library contains records of every single car sales in your town?

Obviously there is some chicken and egg issue here, but the prevailing price is a good starting point.
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:05 AM
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To OP, rural or metro, and regardless what's said on forums, there is usually a prevailing market price per your local market. Truecar can be one way to find out that price, or ask around, or maybe the local library contains records of every single car sales in your town?

Obviously there is some chicken and egg issue here, but the prevailing price is a good starting point.
Really go to the library and research purchase price? Now I have heard everything.
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Old 05-11-2017, 05:46 AM
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Look on something like truecar and see what the average paid is and decide from there. That probably will meet your stated objective.
Let me expand on my recommendation just a bit.. .

First, I want to state that I agree with the other posters. 1968BMW2800 gave you the detailed answer, and I agree with it.

The reason I mentioned " check with truecar " is not because I think thats the absolute best way to shop for a car. I mentioned it because OPs stated objective was to find a "fair" price for the car, as OP was dealing with someone they had respect for and did not want the deal to sour a relationship.

The salesman "should" feel the same (and I agree with 1968 about "fair" "polite" but not getting ripped off as well).

The BEST way to do all that is what 1968 and others said. Calculate invoice, etc... do some research on what they are selling for in your area, etc.

An "easier" way is to check a service like truecar and see what similar cars are selling for in your area, then look at BMWUSA website for any incentives. That would take OP like 15-20 minutes and likely provide you with a price delta you could shoot for where you could feel like you are not getting ripped off, but still likely leave "meat on the bone" so to speak for your salesperson.

If I were OP I might give the salesperson a chance to sell me the car before I mentioned a price myself... its "possible" the salesperson could get you a slightly better price than you expect for example, depending on how much pull they have at their dealership.

I might make an appointment to see him / her, then say something like "hey john / jane, I am interested in (car). I have done some research online and using truecar, etc but would really like to buy local from you if we can figure this out. What can you do on one of these for me?"

Since OP mentions they live in an area with only 1 dealer, it is "likely" that their best deal will not come from the local dealer, but OP might be able to get a deal within a few hundred dollars of another deal.

Let us know how it comes out.
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Old 05-11-2017, 07:02 AM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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OP, now you have more "good" advice than you ever wanted!

We're all pulling for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
And you can say, "I'm considering buying a BMW. Would you like the opportunity to try and put a deal together for me?"



"Where in relation to invoice do y'all like to sell these M240's?"

"Do you think it's better if I take my trade-in somewhere else to sell it or would you like the opportunity to evaluate my trade as part of any deal we might put together here?"

"My preference is to stay local and give you the opportunity to sell me a car. Should I shop around or is your dealership in a position to offer me a competitive deal?"
My thinking is you are politely setting the stage for the CA to affirm that he wants the opportunity to try and put something together for you. You are laying reasonable parameters by asking for a "competitive deal," which is code for, "I might buy but I won't overpay the current market price." And current market price covers more geography than a single small town, and your CA knows it.

You, then, grant him that opportunity to try to earn your business, without making any commitment to complete the purchase. If you can't get close to competitive numbers, you can walk away by saying, "I'd love to do the deal with you but your dealership's numbers need to be more competitive in order for me to feel good about the price," or, if it goes as it should, your neighbor will be able to get you a friendly enough deal to earn your business.

Hope you get the car, and the deal, you are seeking. Good luck!
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:19 AM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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This is all very helpful, thanks. I spent an hour with the salesman yesterday, and am pretty much ready to move forward...so I think I qualify as a pretty easy customer.

I have looked at TrueCar, but can't seem to investigate pricing on the M240i...seems like it's not in their database. Am I wrong? Would it make sense to look at where something comparable (not sure which BMW that would be, other than perhaps the 230i, but the available options are much different, of course) sells relative to MSRP?

I definitely want to pay something fair...for me and the CA. And given the size of the purchase, I'm okay with a swing in his direction...much prefer to overpay a bit than to drill him for the lowest price.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:35 AM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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This from the BMW site:
Lease financing available on new 2017 BMW M240i Coupe models, from participating BMW Centers through BMW Financial Services through May 31, 2017, to eligible, qualified customers with excellent credit history who meet BMW Financial Services' credit requirements. Monthly lease payments of $519 per month for 36 months is based on an adjusted capitalized cost of $42,272 (MSRP of $47,095, including destination and handling fee of $995, less $3,000 customer down, $0 security deposit, suggested dealer contribution of $1,823). Actual MSRP may vary. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect your actual monthly lease payment. Cash due at signing includes $3,000 down payment, $519 first month's payment, $925 acquisition fee and $0 security deposit. Lessee responsible for insurance during the lease term, excess wear and tear as defined in the lease contract, $0.25/mile over 30,000 miles and a disposition fee of $350 at lease end. Not all customers will qualify for security deposit waiver. Tax, title, license and registration fees are additional fees due at signing. Advertised payment does not include applicable taxes. Purchase option at lease end, excluding tax, title and government fees, is $27,315. Offer and rebates are valid through May 31, 2017...


The suggested "Dealer Contribution" on this deal is $1,823 on a $47,095 MSRP car. So, AT A MINIMUM, 4% off of MSRP is more than reasonable. Festers, of course, generally do much better than that.
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Old 05-11-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
This is all very helpful, thanks. I spent an hour with the salesman yesterday, and am pretty much ready to move forward...so I think I qualify as a pretty easy customer.

I have looked at TrueCar, but can't seem to investigate pricing on the M240i...seems like it's not in their database. Am I wrong? Would it make sense to look at where something comparable (not sure which BMW that would be, other than perhaps the 230i, but the available options are much different, of course) sells relative to MSRP?

I definitely want to pay something fair...for me and the CA. And given the size of the purchase, I'm okay with a swing in his direction...much prefer to overpay a bit than to drill him for the lowest price.
If you want help with the specific numbers you can post them here and I am sure you will get feedback on them. If you dont want to get public feedback, but still want some assistance, I am willing to take a look at them if you send them to me in a PM. I am only 1 person, but am fairly decent with BMW lease numbers.

In order to provide you with the best possible feedback (again keeping in mind your stated objectives), I would still need to see the following so I dont have to re create the wheel:

Lease or Purchase?
MSRP of the car you are looking at
Sales price of the car offered by your salesperson (verify if this is before or after any incentives are applied)
Any incentives you might qualify for (corporate fleet, AARP, etc)
Money factor / interest rate used in the quote
LEASE: Whether your state taxes entire sales price up front, or charges tax on each payment
Fees charged by the dealership (both official and unofficial fees like doc fees etc).
LEASE : Residual percentage they used / Miles per year.
Proposed monthly payment
Cap cost reduction included in quote (down payment / cap cost reduction)
Total Drive offs needed (the money you have to give them to leave with the car)


You dont NEED all this but to fully evaluate it, the more of it you have the better. Specifically, sales price of car, interest rate used/ money factor, fees charged, Monthly payment.

I did say before that I was "kinda out of the deal evaluation on bimmerfest" business... but I am a sucker for a good story, and I really like the fact that you are also trying to "do right" for both yourself and the salesperson.
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:48 AM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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Again, appreciate the thoughts, info, etc.

Using .92 factor for base MSRP, .93 for options, $500 MACO fee, $995 D&H, and $180 training fee, I'm calculating invoice price of $47,417. The dealer charges a $579 fee.

Purchasing (not leasing), w/o any dealer financing.

Not sure if this is enough info to hone in on the "right" price that I'm looking for (I don't see any incentives on the BMW website), but perhaps it's a start. thx
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Old 05-11-2017, 10:55 AM
1968BMW2800 1968BMW2800 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
Again, appreciate the thoughts, info, etc.

Using .92 factor for base MSRP, .93 for options, $500 MACO fee, $995 D&H, and $180 training fee, I'm calculating invoice price of $47,417. The dealer charges a $579 fee.

Purchasing (not leasing), w/o any dealer financing.

Not sure if this is enough info to hone in on the "right" price that I'm looking for (I don't see any incentives on the BMW website), but perhaps it's a start. thx
Right. Might be hidden 'trunk $." No way to know unless you ask or test the bottom -- which is clearly not the dynamic you want to put in play for this deal.

But you know that there is a national offer on M240's showing a "dealer contribution," which is a discount coming from somewhere, so that's a start.

The thing to remember about lease offers is, wading past the 'customer cash' and all the rest, one looks to see if the manufacturer or dealer is kicking something in -- and in your case, somebody is kicking in about 4%, so you have a basis to ask for a discount without offending anyone. Doesn't matter if you're buying or leasing, you know the cars are being offered on a national deal, with a dealer discount.

Last edited by 1968BMW2800; 05-11-2017 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:05 AM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1968BMW2800 View Post
The thing to remember about lease offers is, wading past the 'customer cash' and all the rest, one looks to see if the manufacturer or dealer is kicking something in -- and in your case, somebody is kicking in about 4%, so you have a basis to ask for a discount without offending anyone. Doesn't matter if you're buying or leasing, you know the cars are being offered on a national deal, with a dealer discount.
Hmm. If dealers are kicking in $1,800 on lease deals, wouldn't paying invoice be sort of equivalent to paying invoice plus the $1,800? Guess I'm not sure where/how to factor in the $1,800 dealer give.

Is there a simple, "offer $x over invoice+dealer fee" that comprises a solid deal on both sides (understanding that the first question should be to figure out where they'd offer the car)?
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:42 AM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
Again, appreciate the thoughts, info, etc.

Using .92 factor for base MSRP, .93 for options, $500 MACO fee, $995 D&H, and $180 training fee, I'm calculating invoice price of $47,417. The dealer charges a $579 fee.

Purchasing (not leasing), w/o any dealer financing.

Not sure if this is enough info to hone in on the "right" price that I'm looking for (I don't see any incentives on the BMW website), but perhaps it's a start. thx
I think you have the MSRP calculation backwards... its:

===================

BMW Invoice Pricing calculation
Base vehicle US MSRP (from pricing sheets below) multiplied by 0.93
+ MACO fee $500.00 (flat rate applied to all dealers)
= Base vehicle US BMW invoice price

To figure the invoice price of your BMW as configured add -
+ Option and packages (anything you can add to the vehicle) multiplied by 0.92
+ Training fee of $180.00
+ Destination and handling charge - Currently $995
= Total vehicle invoice price +/- $10.00


=================

You typed it the other way around, which will give you an invoice price that is too low. The lease offer "dealer contribution" numbers are normally from MSRP (which is why many people will recommend that you can always do better than the specific lease offers.. especially as they tend to be on low optioned vehicles.

If you offer invoice +1k minus any incentives you qualify for, you would actually be offering invoice + 1579 (that dealer fee is profit). That would be very fair (very) to them in my estimation since you are looking at specific numbers. You still wont know if there is trunk money etc, but thats why I suggested letting them offer you first.

The 1800 is just a suggested discount from MSRP so doesnt quite factor in, at least not unless they are trying to charge you MSRP.
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Old 05-11-2017, 11:47 AM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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Originally Posted by jjrandorin View Post
I think you have the MSRP calculation backwards
Whoops...I did the calculation correctly (.93 on the MSRP, .92 on options), but wrote it wrong. Thanks for the catch!
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Old 05-11-2017, 12:53 PM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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Looks like MSRP plus the $579 dealer fee is $50,811. Invoice plus dealer fee is $47,996 (including options, MACO, etc.).

Deducting the $1,823 they're offering in lease incentives from the $50,811 above leaves $48,988, just under $1,000 above invoice. Would I be wrong in assuming that the dealer is going to make additional $ on a lease vs. cash sale, suggesting that this "math" may not work for him?
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Old 05-11-2017, 02:44 PM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
Looks like MSRP plus the $579 dealer fee is $50,811. Invoice plus dealer fee is $47,996 (including options, MACO, etc.).

Deducting the $1,823 they're offering in lease incentives from the $50,811 above leaves $48,988, just under $1,000 above invoice. Would I be wrong in assuming that the dealer is going to make additional $ on a lease vs. cash sale, suggesting that this "math" may not work for him?
they might make extra money on a lease sale if you let them mark up the money factor... dont know if they will if you insist on the buy rate.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:28 PM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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So would it be "fair" to propose paying MSRP plus dealer fee less the lease incentive of $1,823...resulting in a price that works out to just under $1,000 over invoice? Again, I want to make an offer that's fair to the CA.
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Old 05-11-2017, 06:43 PM
jjrandorin jjrandorin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
So would it be "fair" to propose paying MSRP plus dealer fee less the lease incentive of $1,823...resulting in a price that works out to just under $1,000 over invoice? Again, I want to make an offer that's fair to the CA.
Whatever you think is fair, is fair. I think I mentioned that I felt that 1k over invoice (not counting their pretty large doc fee) was very fair.
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Old 05-13-2017, 10:17 AM
WDC330i WDC330i is offline
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Some other things to keep in mind:

In July, there will be a turnover at the factory to the 2018 M240, so your car will already be a model year "old" if you buy now, Put that into the equation. When those new cars hit the dealers lots (likely Late August-Early September), and remaining 2017 240s will be discounted. That discounted price will be the new set point for the car's value.

Do you have USAA? They often offer a rebate through certain dealers on certain models of cars. I got $2000 off my 240 using them (plus more from the dealer, etc.)

Have you been a BMWCCA member for a year? If so, they offer a rebate (not to be combined some other rebates, like USAA).


Look on the 2 series forum here and elsewhere for what people are paying. Model is known as the F22 (coupe) F23 (convertible.)

Here's what's coming for July's 2018 models: https://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=978549
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Old 05-13-2017, 01:40 PM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDC330i View Post
Some other things to keep in mind:

In July, there will be a turnover at the factory to the 2018 M240, so your car will already be a model year "old" if you buy now, Put that into the equation. When those new cars hit the dealers lots (likely Late August-Early September), and remaining 2017 240s will be discounted. That discounted price will be the new set point for the car's value.

Do you have USAA? They often offer a rebate through certain dealers on certain models of cars. I got $2000 off my 240 using them (plus more from the dealer, etc.)
This is helpful info, thanks.

When you say "remaining models will be discounted", do you mean that 2017 240s on dealer lots will be discounted? I'm assuming that ordering a 240 in May 2017, two months ahead of the factory turnover, means nothing in terms of discounted pricing...correct?

Appreciate the USAA heads up. I am a member. Is the rebate something that the dealer will take into account as we discuss the price I'm going to pay ("you're getting 2k from USAA, so we'll sell you the care for MSRP") or do we figure out a price excluding the rebate? I guess what I'm asking is whether the $2,000 comes out of the CA's hide, or does USAA eat that?

Thanks again.
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  #23  
Old 05-13-2017, 04:41 PM
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adrian's bmw adrian's bmw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msa6 View Post
This is helpful info, thanks.

When you say "remaining models will be discounted", do you mean that 2017 240s on dealer lots will be discounted? I'm assuming that ordering a 240 in May 2017, two months ahead of the factory turnover, means nothing in terms of discounted pricing...correct?

Appreciate the USAA heads up. I am a member. Is the rebate something that the dealer will take into account as we discuss the price I'm going to pay ("you're getting 2k from USAA, so we'll sell you the care for MSRP") or do we figure out a price excluding the rebate? I guess what I'm asking is whether the $2,000 comes out of the CA's hide, or does USAA eat that?

Thanks again.
If you're leasing, USAA rebate is $500, not $2k.
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  #24  
Old 05-13-2017, 05:27 PM
mauicoug mauicoug is offline
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op stated he was purchasing, not using dealer financing. Therefore, he can get the USAA incentive. for that matter, he could use the USAA car buying service and will automatically get quotes from multiple dealers.
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  #25  
Old 05-13-2017, 09:21 PM
msa6 msa6 is offline
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Originally Posted by mauicoug View Post
op stated he was purchasing, not using dealer financing. Therefore, he can get the USAA incentive. for that matter, he could use the USAA car buying service and will automatically get quotes from multiple dealers.
Is it bad form to have spent an hour with a CA, someone who knows people I know in our small town and lives about a mile from me, test driving a car...and to then get quotes from multiple dealers through USAA service to ask him to beat? Will I offend him? I ask because I want to do the deal right for him and for me.
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