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F10 / F11 (2011 - 2016)
The sixth generation of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) was produced from 2011 - 2016 with LCI updates arriving in 2014. In the US BMW offered a hatchback 5 Series Gran Truismo (F07) and the rest of the world also go a Station Wagon/Touring version F11.

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  #276  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:15 PM
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SWAJames is right. It is difficult to draw conclusions from sales numbers because many people buy ARS based on brand loyalty and marketing.

That said it is interesting and a little disturbing that the best selling cars in this segment are also the most expensive.
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  #277  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
Please enlighten me on which Toyota the GS is based on

I'm curious because if it is really is, then the F10 is a derivative of the MINI Cooper platform
AutoUnion: I know you are aware of this, but others may not be:

"In 2005, Lexus completed an organizational separation from parent company Toyota, with dedicated design, engineering, training, and manufacturing centers working exclusively for the division."

In layman's terms, they have been 2 separate companies for the past 7 years, each with their own independent design, engineering and manufacturing teams, working independently of each other. Lexus is not based on Toyota any more than Toyota is based on Lexus.
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  #278  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:36 PM
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AutoUnion: I know you are aware of this, but others may not be:

"In 2005, Lexus completed an organizational separation from parent company Toyota, with dedicated design, engineering, training, and manufacturing centers working exclusively for the division."

In layman's terms, they have been 2 separate companies for the past 7 years, each with their own independent design, engineering and manufacturing teams, working independently of each other. Lexus is not based on Toyota any more than Toyota is based on Lexus.
Just because Lexus is owned by Toyota doesn't mean the GS is a Toyota-based as that other poster says.

If he really thinks so, then he is delusional and has no idea what he is talking about.
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  #279  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
You are responding to a guy who is beyond reason. He comments not based on facts but on cliche and dogma. You should just block him so I don't have to read his ridiculous quoted comments.
Haha, it's done. Honestly, it's pretty funny how out of grip he is with reality, but it did get annoying.
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He probably thinks the LFA is a Corolla with a turbocharger.
Wouldn't surprise me. People out there think that the LFA is just a Toyota on steroids and the R8 is just a VW. Pretty ridiculous.
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  #280  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by w5lx View Post
AutoUnion: I know you are aware of this, but others may not be:

"In 2005, Lexus completed an organizational separation from parent company Toyota, with dedicated design, engineering, training, and manufacturing centers working exclusively for the division."

In layman's terms, they have been 2 separate companies for the past 7 years, each with their own independent design, engineering and manufacturing teams, working independently of each other. Lexus is not based on Toyota any more than Toyota is based on Lexus.
Are you stating that, for example, the ES350 is not based on any Toyota platform, i.e., that Toyoa and Lexus share no common engineering components? Why does the parent Toyota respond when Lexus models are recalled? To say there is no Toyota influence or connection to Lexus is extremely naive.

UPDATE: From Wikipedia - see below. The 2013 Camry is based on the Toyota Avalon platform. Previous ES350's were based on Toyota Camry platform. I'm not sure what your statement actually means above, that the companies are completey separate.
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  #281  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
Are you stating that, for example, the ES350 is not based on any Toyota platform, i.e., that Toyoa and Lexus share no common engineering components? Why does the parent Toyota respond when Lexus models are recalled? To say there is no Toyota influence or connection to Lexus is extremely naive.

UPDATE: From Wikipedia - see below. The 2013 Camry is based on the Toyota Avalon platform. Previous ES350's were based on Toyota Camry platform. I'm not sure why your statement actually means above, that the companies are completed separate.
I don't think anyone is claiming that Toyota and Lexus are separate. There is, however, a much greater degree of design, engineering and management separation than there was in the past and the trend is that they will continue to operationally diverge. It makes no sense for them to build totally separate product lines any more than it does for BMW to, say, run total separation for its brands. It is more likely than not that there are some parts that are common to Mini, BMW and even Rolls Rpyce. It's no bad thing. In future, the Mini and the 1 Series may well converge when BMW makes its first FWD main line cars.
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  #282  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
I don't think anyone is claiming that Toyota and Lexus are separate. There is, however, a much greater degree of design, engineering and management separation than there was in the past and the trend is that they will continue to operationally diverge. It makes no sense for them to build totally separate product lines any more than it does for BMW to, say, run total separation for its brands. It is more likely than not that there are some parts that are common to Mini, BMW and even Rolls Rpyce. It's no bad thing. In future, the Mini and the 1 Series may well converge when BMW makes its first FWD main line cars.
Lexus "lovers" are quick to state how, for example, Acura is Honda-based, but refuse to acknowledge that Lexus models, some more so than others, are based on Toyota platforms, and are built in Toyota-owned facilities. There is a direct lineage between Lexus and Toyota -- Toyota is Lexus' parent company. They won't even acknowledge that undisputable fact.
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  #283  
Old 07-22-2012, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
Lexus "lovers" are quick to state how, for example, Acura is Honda-based, but refuse to acknowledge that Lexus models, some more so than others, are based on Toyota platforms, and are built in Toyota-owned facilities. There is a direct lineage between Lexus and Toyota -- Toyota is Lexus' parent company. They won't even acknowledge that undisputable fact.
I don't really see anyone claiming that, as it simply wouldn't be true today. The two companies are a parent and a subsidiary. With that said, Lexus and Toyota are slowly diverging and Lexus is, operationally at least, increasingly in charge of its own destiny. The car which is the subject of the thread isn't, to my knowledge, based on a Toyota model and is unique to Lexus.
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  #284  
Old 07-22-2012, 09:46 PM
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We have to remember that one of the reasons that Lexus and Toyota were not considered separate a lot earlier is because for quite some time, Lexus didn't exist in Japan. In Japan, the Lexus GS was known as the Toyota Aristo. Of course, just because it had the Toyota name doesn't mean that it was a "Toyota" product, at least not in the regard that the American audience thinks they are. They maintain a separate platform for the GS.

If we wish to assign the "gussied up" Toyota moniker, we should apply that only to the ES and RX, which are both cars that most likely exist on the radars of exactly 0 BMW owners.
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  #285  
Old 07-23-2012, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
You are responding to a guy who is beyond reason. He comments not based on facts but on cliche and dogma. You should just block him so I don't have to read his ridiculous quoted comments.
Comments like this is like poison to a forum. Here we have Stealth.Pilot with his out of control ego asking other members to block members that he doesn't like or have lost debates to. Instead of encourage more blocking, we should discourage it. There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate, just because Stealth.Pilot lost the debate based on facts, that is not a good reason to block other members or encourage other members to block. If his ego cannot handle losing a debate, then he should not enter into one.

Last edited by The X Men; 07-23-2012 at 08:18 AM.
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  #286  
Old 07-23-2012, 09:17 AM
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Again I agree with SWAJames. Nobody is denying the relationship between Lexus and Toyota. In fact Lexus aficionados should be proud of that relationship since Toyota is one of the top automotive engineering organizations in the world. They have transformed the industry with Hybrid Synergy Drive - a technology which BMW uses under patent.

Further BMW recently signed and publicized a much vaunted partnership with Toyota on powertrains and Sportscars. So if you believe Lexus is rubbish because they may use some Toyota technology such as hybrid drive, then you must believe BMW is also about to launch some rubbish products.

And arguments about the ES350 while fair, are also true of the upcoming entry level front wheel drive BMWs based on mini platforms.

Basically all luxury brands sell lower quality tech in entry level models. It doesn't mean that the high end rear drive products are based on these low end products.
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  #287  
Old 07-23-2012, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post

Basically all luxury brands sell lower quality tech in entry level models. It doesn't mean that the high end rear drive products are based on these low end products.
And with this statement, I think all the bull**** has been laid to rest. Time to lock the thread up?
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  #288  
Old 07-23-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Comments like this is like poison to a forum. Here we have Stealth.Pilot with his out of control ego asking other members to block members that he doesn't like or have lost debates to. Instead of encourage more blocking, we should discourage it. There is nothing wrong with a healthy debate, just because Stealth.Pilot lost the debate based on facts, that is not a good reason to block other members or encourage other members to block. If his ego cannot handle losing a debate, then he should not enter into one.
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