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F10 / F11 (2011 - 2016)
The sixth generation of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) was produced from 2011 - 2016 with LCI updates arriving in 2014. In the US BMW offered a hatchback 5 Series Gran Truismo (F07) and the rest of the world also go a Station Wagon/Touring version F11.

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  #51  
Old 02-05-2014, 01:33 PM
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I just remembered a Genesis issue which made my wife hate the car. The front passenger seat was adjustable only front-to-rear, not up and down, and she's 5' 1" and hated that she couldn't raise the seat enough to see outside easily. She felt that the front passenger should be given a little more consideration in a luxury-class car. Any idea whether Genesis is now better balanced in features in the front seats?


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  #52  
Old 02-05-2014, 06:24 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
You're confusing quality with reliability (to be fair, they can be considered one in the same, but in the case of most premium cars, they're very different). On the previous Genesis, I saw the design and nature intended to mimic that of Mercedes and BMW, but you feel the plastics, the switches, look between the lines at the details, and it didn't have that more substantial feeling to it, things felt a little cheaper, flimsier, etc. Same goes for the Equus, a whole lot of luxury fluff (not meant in a bad way at all) but the underlying build quality was noticeably lacking to me, compared to cars who it's intending to compete with. Things like that go a long way to some, hence my calling it a "copy of the authentic product". The K9 blatantly ripped the Joystick from BMW, etc. etc. They aren't designing their own identity as much as they are offering a budget version of an identity created by a benchmark.

The F10 oozes with tactile quality, however BMW's have always been fickle with reliability.

The new Genesis should narrow the gap, naturally, as it's a newer model car (i.e right in between the F10 and next gen 5 Series).

Japanese cars got their start in a similar way, but Lexus, Acura, etc. were always considered "Luxury" from the start, and to this day can't earn the respect that the German benchmarks have.

To Hyundai's defense, at this point I can't tell who's copying who, Hyundai to Mercedes, or Mercedes to Hyundai, but the Genesis looks now like it's moved past Mercedes and is copying Audi amongst a few others (the Kia more focused on BMW).

Copycats bother me, always have, and I think Hyundai will never get the respect they crave until they: A- Separate their budget models from the upper priced models, and B- Create their own identity without looking like they're happy to be a "poor mans knockoff" of the real thing.

Looking at this on an economics scale, it makes perfect sense. If Hyundai is offering all these expensive luxury amenities at such a low cost, they have to cut elsewhere. Enter plastics, underlying bits, inherent structural quality perhaps, etc. etc. You'll see lots of sharing with the cheaper Hyundai's, etc.
I do not agree that Lexus has not earned the respect that German's have. BTW, when the LS400 came out in 89 I know two very wealthy people who traded M-B S500s for them. I do agree that Mercedes and to a slightly lesser degree BMW have more snob appeal than Lexus, but that is a different issue.

I also don't agree that Hyundai has to cut costs somewhere to sell at a price point. They have a history of being very patient getting their cars accepted by selling them for a lower price than the competition. They are likely selling at much lower margins, and they likely have much cheaper labor costs.

Sure it takes time and experience to make the car that will meet the criteria of the market they are going after, but the first generation Genesis was a very good first effort, and I'm expecting the new one to be scary close to the Germans. That is not to say they will appeal to everyone. Most of us regulars on this forum are true enthusiasts, and we are not typical of BMW owners. Frankly, many BMW owners are just into them to make a statement, and they will never consider a Hyundai. Then there are a group of owners who don't push the cars hard, they just want a solid comfortable car with the features it offers.

I'm not saying the new one is there yet, nobody has driven one yet so we are just guessing. That's why I'm asking if BMW owners will look at it with an open mind, and many folks on this forum have said yes they will.
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  #53  
Old 02-05-2014, 07:18 PM
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Reliability is a component of quality. A part may have the look and feel of quality, but if it doesn't last, it's not a quality part.
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  #54  
Old 02-05-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
I do not agree that Lexus has not earned the respect that German's have. BTW, when the LS400 came out in 89 I know two very wealthy people who traded M-B S500s for them. I do agree that Mercedes and to a slightly lesser degree BMW have more snob appeal than Lexus, but that is a different issue.

I also don't agree that Hyundai has to cut costs somewhere to sell at a price point. They have a history of being very patient getting their cars accepted by selling them for a lower price than the competition. They are likely selling at much lower margins, and they likely have much cheaper labor costs.

Sure it takes time and experience to make the car that will meet the criteria of the market they are going after, but the first generation Genesis was a very good first effort, and I'm expecting the new one to be scary close to the Germans. That is not to say they will appeal to everyone. Most of us regulars on this forum are true enthusiasts, and we are not typical of BMW owners. Frankly, many BMW owners are just into them to make a statement, and they will never consider a Hyundai. Then there are a group of owners who don't push the cars hard, they just want a solid comfortable car with the features it offers.

I'm not saying the new one is there yet, nobody has driven one yet so we are just guessing. That's why I'm asking if BMW owners will look at it with an open mind, and many folks on this forum have said yes they will.
Interesting thing that kind of relates to this:

My Mom, who's had BMW's and Mercedes' practically all her adult life, in the past several years got a Lexus ES350, which she has hated and called "unsexy", "old lady's car", etc. since day one. Even though she's not a car enthusiast in the least, she's been trained by that underlying BMW/Mercedes quality which makes her Lexus' shortcomings very apparent to her.

She's been trying to rationalize selling it for a while, but is trying to do anything "rash" as since the "Great Recession" she lost her financial footing in many ways and hasn't been able to recoup much (so the Lexus was supposed to be a "smart buy sacrifice".... which was a mistake on its own I think).

Recently she told me she say her friend got a "Hybrid, but not a Prius.... (which she's been trying to rationalize getting, and I've told her that she will find herself VERY unhappy in a Prius after she realizes that whatever social/societal good she may be doing will be largely outweighed by the fact that her natural senses will pick up on her driving a basic Toyota, more or less).... "that looks exactly like a BMW or Mercedes and is very nice and only costs her around a couple of hundred dollars a month or so".

She then asked me to help her finally sell her car, so she can get into something else. She also said that she doesn't care about brand or snob factor of a car anymore, time are'a changing and the social, economical and automotive culture is changing.

So I told her to find out what the car was and I'll look into it. She texts her friend and gets back to me, "It's a Hyundai Sonata Hybrid". Later I followed up with her, and she changed her mind, in that "I just don't know about Hyundai, or if I could see myself in a Hyundai".

It's basically that stigma that Hyundai will have to keep fighting against, which I think is why they need to stop calling their expensive cars "Hyundai's". Naturally the Genesis will wow her a lot more, but she genuinely loved this Sonata Hybrid for the price, but just couldn't get herself to go forward with it.

If you think about it, when there's a mod for the Genesis where people replace the Hyundai badge with some faux-Bentley (again, Hyundai with the poor-mans copycat, unoriginal stuff, which will never develop them a cachet more than a quality follower) Genesis badge, Hyundai should get the picture by now. They're testing the waters as to whether the quality of their more expensive products will lift the Hyundai name, or whether the Hyundai name is too powerful in its down-marketdness, therefore dragging the more expensive products down to it. I think the latter will win as it's too imbedded within the minds of the currently living generations.
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  #55  
Old 02-05-2014, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sonicendeavor View Post
Reliability is a component of quality. A part may have the look and feel of quality, but if it doesn't last, it's not a quality part.
There's always a fine line in that argument.

A Toyota Camry will have parts that are meant to be durable and lasting, but a side effect of feeling cheap, unrefined, un-cared for, etc. While you can have an alcantara headliner which is probably very fragile, but a more high quality part.

BMW's reliability woes are generally from more bleeding edge technology, or maybe somewhat higher stressed motors/equipment (etc) that needs to be massaged a little bit. But the parts that really count, like the metal, the chassis', the frames, the structural integrity, motors, etc. on Germans usually outlast any other car, showing a higher overall quality. Many things that feel high quality may not be the most durable, and sometimes a high quality feel also equals higher durability. Of course, drawing a fine line between that matters. Things like the shifter, the window switches, the buttons, how much carpeting is there VS bare plastic, the bare metals and screws being covered up nicely, the feel of the plastics, the weight of all the switches/buttons/levers, the design details, how everything aligns, to me shows the kind of quality the car was designed with. How they last also has something to do with it, of course (how the parts were built).

You see much older German cars running around all day, probably running close to as good as the day when they were new if maintained with care. You don't see that from many other cars.
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  #56  
Old 02-05-2014, 07:35 PM
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It's not ugly, but reminds me of one of those neighborhoods you drive through where all of the houses are dolled up to look like little mansions, having no architectural identity. They all look faux expensive, not exactly in a way you can put your finger on.

I do not like the wheels, though. I don't like chrome and they are too busy.
BINGO. It looks "fake". Anyone with an eye for quality and genuinity will see right through it. And this is what drives me crazy about Hyundai. It seems these cars DO have some solid engineering going into them.... let them fly on their own, why make it such a "poser car". To me, it looks tacky, which then makes the clientele look tacky, which makes Hyundai look tacky, which then turns off prospective existing BMW/Mercedes/Audi buyers.

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It's certainly better than the outgoing version. I'll wait to pass final judgement until seen in person. Agreed on the wheels and I dislike the faux Bentley like wings on the hood and steering wheel.

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I actually think the outgoing version is pretty handsome, again kind of the "copy of a copy" look but pretty decent looking. The front always could look a lot more cunning.

The fake Bentley badges drive me crazy. Again, "poser car, poser design, poser badges". What kind of clientele are they going after with faux-Bentley logos on a car that looks like a faux "5 leaders combined into one"? Certainly not a sophisticated, conservative one (not saying sophisticated people won't BUY it, but those elements don't speak to them, in fact will turn them off majorly). It might as well be one of those Chinese rip-off cars. My theory: They'll never get the respect they deserve (yes, deserves, as they seem to be actually building this Genesis very well, preliminarily speaking) by making poser designs with Bentley poser badges, etc.
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  #57  
Old 02-05-2014, 11:42 PM
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Someone here on this forum had the pre-production K900 for a week. How did that turn out?
I got to drive the K900 for three weeks. I put about 700 miles on it. The K900 is an absolutely amazing car. On my test car, the suspension also would stiffen up in sport mode. - But I am not sure if that feature will make it on the final builds.

Although it is longer than the 5 Series, it did not feel as heavy or bulky. It was very smooth and quiet but not as sporty as I would have liked. No Turbo, but had plenty of power for normal day to day driving. Back seat is super spacious. Some weird controls for example only one fan for all front and rear vents yet the rear passenger also has controls to change fan speed. My kid loved to turn it on high and then on low - over and over again. There is a lockout feature for rear controls, but the lockout feature is only in the back seat. (seriously- no lock out feature in the front) I got in to a power rear screen war with my kid as there are dual controls for that too. It had HUD, but lacked the refinement of our cars. The rear camera seemed of low quality, but it was effective. They spent a lot of effort in making the doors sound solid when opening and closing. But missed the boat on door locks. When you unlock and lock the doors, it sounds hollow and all doors are out of sync like what you would expect in the old Hyundai Excel. Mine had soft close doors which were excellent. We put my 12 year old in the trunk to see if the emergency release would work. It opened the trunk slightly, but then the soft close function would relock the trunk again. He would have to pull the release and quickly push against the powered trunk to get out. Afterwards, we tried it in the BMW and it was much easier to get out. Obviously a feature that we would never use. The car had a spare and still a large spacious trunk. My rear seats did not fold down or I was unable to figure it out. It runs on regular gas and does not require Premium. Brakes were excellent. I liked the Laser Cruise control better in the Kia than in my 535 as it didn't seem to be as touchy on the brakes. It just seemed like a smoother implementation. Steering wheel controls are better laid out on the BMW. I like the iDrive on the BMW better than the Kia. The Kia is more Audi like, so this is more than just a preference for me. Sound system is 10x better than my base stereo.

For me, it is hard to get into a $65k car with KIA on the steering wheel. AT least Hyundai, replaced its name with wings. LOL.

After the three weeks, I was happy to get back into my 535.
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  #58  
Old 02-06-2014, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
There's always a fine line in that argument.

A Toyota Camry will have parts that are meant to be durable and lasting, but a side effect of feeling cheap, unrefined, un-cared for, etc. While you can have an alcantara headliner which is probably very fragile, but a more high quality part.
That's a reverse argument . My statement was that reliability is a component of quality, not quality is a component of reliability. If the headliner fails then it's a quality part from a look and feel standpoint only and shouldn't have been installed in the car. We too often give manufacturers a pass under the guise of bleeding edge, and consumers end up paying the price. Now if the manufacturer is up front and states that a part has a short lifespan, such as certain parts on exotics, that's a different story.
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  #59  
Old 02-06-2014, 11:04 AM
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I just did some research. I think we're confusing the Genesis and K900.

The Hyundai Genesis has no Kia equivalent.

The K900 and Equus share a platform.
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  #60  
Old 02-06-2014, 11:07 AM
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I just did some research. I think we're confusing the Genesis and K900.

The Hyundai Genesis has no Kia equivalent.

The K900 and Equus share a platform.
Good point - but wouldn't the Kia Cadenza be the Genesis equivalent?
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  #61  
Old 02-06-2014, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
Good point - but wouldn't the Kia Cadenza be the Genesis equivalent?
No.

Cadenza is front wheel drive.

Genesis / k900 / Equus are rwd or awd. They share a platform the way 5/6/7/RR share a platform.

The Genesis is new for 2015. It has a new lotus tuned suspension and was tested on the Nurburgring. It is more rigid than the F10.

The K900 is new to America but I don't think it has the same new design that the Genesis does. I think we are getting the 2012 calendar year version.

The Equus is similar to the k900.


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  #62  
Old 02-06-2014, 11:15 AM
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I just did some research. I think we're confusing the Genesis and K900.

The Hyundai Genesis has no Kia equivalent.

The K900 and Equus share a platform.
Yes, the next lower model below the K900 is the Kia Cadenza which shares the Hyundai Azera platform.
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:26 AM
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Yes, the next lower model below the K900 is the Kia Cadenza which shares the Hyundai Azera platform.
Yup, this is correct. Kia has no "middle" model. Only the lower end Cadenza (a very good looking car BTW) and the K900.
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:35 AM
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The way I look at it, the Genesis has a chance to compete. It's priced in the range of the 3-series and aspires to give you a 5-series luxury experience.

The K900 is dead in the water. Once you get into that price range, interior quality matters a lot. The steering wheel of the K900 is so ugly that it'll be a deal breaker. It was supposed to be a sportier Equus and it doesn't sound like it's pulled that off. The Equus is OK.

The Equus is 5 series pricing, in a larger size. They're dead among consumers who find the 5 series to "fit just fine" and it really has to be focused on the buyer who needs the 7 series size. I think version 1.0 is a good first effort, but I could see them being a solid competitor to the Lexus LS in time.
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Old 02-06-2014, 11:43 AM
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Yes, the next lower model below the K900 is the Kia Cadenza which shares the Hyundai Azera platform.
Ah.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:29 PM
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But at the end of the day, it's still a Hyundai or a Kia.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AutoUnion View Post
I just did some research. I think we're confusing the Genesis and K900.

The Hyundai Genesis has no Kia equivalent.

The K900 and Equus share a platform.
I was not confused on that, the question is valid regardless of which one you are talking about. They are both 5 series competitors.
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:56 PM
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Excuse me sirs, these asian cars being considered real competitors for the F10 is showing a totally misconception of the BMW car brand.
Of course there will be a market for these cheap cars, but comparing them to the F10 is, as is proven in this thread thusfar, not a realistic comparisson.

Save your money and buy one, but please do not think you are owning a premium car brand and you are only missing "class", if so, you really have not understand why BMW's are driven by us Bimmerfesters.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:19 PM
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Now it makes sense re: pricing of the Kia vs Hyundai. The Genesis has a fighting chance to garner the "it's like a BMW/Audi with a Bentley looking badge but much cheaper" pull, while the K900 (stupidest name ever btw) is just waay too expensive for the Kia brand. I totally forgot about the Azera, I never got why they need that and then the Genesis. I don't think I've seen one new Azera on the roads. Which brings up why the Hyundai and Kia brands won't be able to sell higher priced cars: Far too excessive dilution to build that kind of brand cachet (the one where people will plop over $50-$60k for your cars).

I'd like to see an actual figure on the Genesis chassis rigidity. I always get skeptical when there's just a benchmark stated with no figure behind it. I believe it, but I'd like to hear the actual number. A rigidity higher than the F10 makes it one of the most rigid sedans in the world. I'd assume about as rigid as the new S Class (who's just barely more rigid than the F10, 38k vs 40.5k nm's) but less than the 6 Series (who's astonishingly rigid at I believe it was 43.5k nm's). For reference, the F01 7 is 37.5k nm's.
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Old 02-06-2014, 03:34 PM
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Azera sales volume is small - around 11,000 units a year in the U.S. whereas Genesis volume is just over 32,000 units in the U.S.
Equus volume was just over 3,500 in the U.S. last year
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
Most of us regulars on this forum are true enthusiasts, and we are not typical of BMW owners. Frankly, many BMW owners are just into them to make a statement, and they will never consider a Hyundai. Then there are a group of owners who don't push the cars hard, they just want a solid comfortable car with the features it offers.
So wait, let me get this right. You're saying non-enthusiasts, "statement makers" as you call them, would "never consider a Hyundai". Is your conclusion then that we "enthusiasts" would consider the Hyundai? I don't think so. Who exactly do you think will consider a Genesis as a 5-series alternative?

As others have said, beyond proving they are building a believable, reliable, well performing, value holding car with some level of cachet, they need to scrap the goofy "H" logo shared by the likes of the Accent, create a completely new aura and sales/service network, and owner experience, before they will get serious, high-end traction.
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Last edited by markl53; 02-06-2014 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 02-06-2014, 04:38 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
So wait, let me get this right. You're saying non-enthusiasts, "statement makers" as you call them, would "never consider a Hyundai". Is your conclusion then that we "enthusiasts" would consider the Hyundai? I don't think so. Who exactly do you think will consider a Genesis as a 5-series alternative?

As others have said, beyond proving they are building a believable, reliable, well performing, value holding car with some level of cachet, they need to scrap the goofy "H" logo shared by the likes of the Accent, create a completely new aura and sales/service network, and owner experience, before they will get serious, high-end traction.
Your post is very interesting. Yes, I do think that enthusiasts would consider one. I"m about as big of an enthusiast as you'll ever find and I will consider one. First a caveat. As I said above, the new model coming out is just that. None of us has driven one yet. Right now I'm interested, but that does not mean I've made a decision. But they have made, at least on paper, some improvements that could well make it a car I would buy.

Part of what I find interesting is that you are inferring that the 5 series is the holy grail of "enthusiast" sedans. Yet it has finished as low as dead last in a variety of comparison test of sports sedans in it's price class. AND, it has gotten beat up pretty badly even here on this forum ever since it came out as a car that has to a degree lost it's way.

But look at your second paragraph. You are admitting that regardless of how good the car is functionally that no "enthusiast" would consider a car simply on the basis of it being a Hyundai. That does not sound like an enthusiast to me. I consider a true enthusiast as someone who appreciates many different cars based upon their functionality.

I obviously don't know you, so this statement may be off base, but based upon your post you don't sound like an enthusiast, you sound like a BMW snob to me. Believe me when I tell you that I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm trying to explain how your post comes across to me. I'd love to sit across a table and debate the issue with you as I think there is actually a good chance we'd appreciate each others point of view. You do impress me with the fact that I'm pretty sure you are a "car guy", and I like people who aren't afraid to voice a strong opinion as you have.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by jjsC6 View Post
Your post is very interesting. Yes, I do think that enthusiasts would consider one. I"m about as big of an enthusiast as you'll ever find and I will consider one. First a caveat. As I said above, the new model coming out is just that. None of us has driven one yet. Right now I'm interested, but that does not mean I've made a decision. But they have made, at least on paper, some improvements that could well make it a car I would buy.

Part of what I find interesting is that you are inferring that the 5 series is the holy grail of "enthusiast" sedans. Yet it has finished as low as dead last in a variety of comparison test of sports sedans in it's price class. AND, it has gotten beat up pretty badly even here on this forum ever since it came out as a car that has to a degree lost it's way.

But look at your second paragraph. You are admitting that regardless of how good the car is functionally that no "enthusiast" would consider a car simply on the basis of it being a Hyundai. That does not sound like an enthusiast to me. I consider a true enthusiast as someone who appreciates many different cars based upon their functionality.

I obviously don't know you, so this statement may be off base, but based upon your post you don't sound like an enthusiast, you sound like a BMW snob to me. Believe me when I tell you that I'm not trying to belittle you, I'm trying to explain how your post comes across to me. I'd love to sit across a table and debate the issue with you as I think there is actually a good chance we'd appreciate each others point of view. You do impress me with the fact that I'm pretty sure you are a "car guy", and I like people who aren't afraid to voice a strong opinion as you have.
Peace. I should have modified one of my statements, and that was "5-series alternative". I don't necessarily think an F10 or other BMW is the "holy grail", but I think breaking into the market segment, and being successful, with the likes of other "fine marques", Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, any others you wish to name, will take a lot more work and, I do believe, somewhat of a change of perception. Several years ago, at the local auto show, I told the rep they need a new logo, actually for the whole Hyundai line. It's time for a new look. Maybe you're right -- if the Genesis proves to be a fine car, under the skin, that can hold its value, be reliable and perform well, they may make more inroads.
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Last edited by markl53; 02-06-2014 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 02-06-2014, 05:45 PM
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So just to break this up a little. In 2004 I was looking at a 7 series. Then I saw the VW phaeton. I figured what could be bad? Pretty obscure, cool. Same under pinning's as a Audi A8L and Bently Continental. So I bit, $80,000 VW! Not even the W12, but everything else.
They were supposed to bring you a Phaeton or Touareg and pick your car up for service.

That happened once, I was then driving it to the dealer and waiting in line, not even an appointment. They had no idea how to handle a Phaeton owner. Loaner, "Enterprise car rental is over there" Nuts!

Long story short, it was the best & worst car I ever had. I ended up lemon lawing it.
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Old 02-06-2014, 06:11 PM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Peace. I should have modified one of my statements, and that was "5-series alternative". I don't necessarily think an F10 or other BMW is the "holy grail", but I think breaking into the market segment, and being successful, with the likes of other "fine marques", Mercedes, Audi, Lexus, any others you wish to name, will take a lot more work and, I do believe, somewhat of a change of perception. Several years ago, at the local auto show, I told the rep they need a new logo, actually for the whole Hyundai line. It's time for a new look. Maybe you're right -- if the Genesis proves to be a fine car, under the skin, that can hold its value, be reliable and perform well, they may make more inroads.
See, I knew we could get along! Don't get me wrong, I am not crazy about the fact that they did not separate the brands as in Toyota/Lexus etc. I'm just saying that they are offering a hell of a lot of car for the money, and that they may be close enough with the new car to push me over the edge. If I had the money I used to think I had, I would not worry about spending a lot more to get a little more. But as I near retirement the thought of spending a lot less to get a little less appeals to me more and more.
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