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  #26  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:35 AM
ZTR ZTR is offline
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Don't make it easier for this guy to get himself killed.


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The fact that the motorcycle is fast, does not "make it easier for the guy to get himself killed."

In fact, even on the most powerful motorcycles made, the throttle is by far the LEAST powerful of the three major controls (throttle, front brake, and handlebars).

That's one of the reasons why Code uses the BMW S1000RR for his on-track students.

If you have problems controlling the throttle, you probably also have problems controlling the other two (the front brake and the handlebars). And most people who don't know how to steer or brake effectively, are in complete denial of it- they think they know how to steer and brake, but they really don't.

Last edited by ZTR; 08-31-2014 at 11:49 AM.
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  #27  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:48 AM
zx10guy zx10guy is offline
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The fact that the motorcycle is fast, does not "make it easier for the guy to get himself killed."

In fact, the throttle is the LEAST powerful of the three major controls (throttle, front brake, and handlebars). If you have problems controlling the throttle, you probably also have problems controlling the other two (the front brake and the handlebars). And most people who don't know how to steer or brake effectively, are in complete denial of it- they think they know how to steer and brake, but they really don't.
I respectfully disagree. Depending on the bike in question and the amount of horsepower along with the power curve can and has gotten plenty of people in trouble; even in a straight line with no steering input needed. You see this all the time in the infamous Youtube videos.

The more powerful the bike, the more throttle control you have to exercise. The margin of error for a big horsepower sport bike is much narrower than a smaller displacement lower horsepower bike. You see this in competition as well. You don't see people in Moto3 running the same big bore engines as the GP riders.

I also get coached a lot during my track sessions where the riding coaches were emphasizing my throttle control.

Last edited by zx10guy; 08-31-2014 at 11:56 AM.
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  #28  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:48 AM
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My wife's minivan 'feels' like it's going a lot faster than my BMW, at lower speeds. A bike feels even faster. (My experience with dirtbikes.) Perhaps OP can purchase a scooter, and still get the sensation of more speed than his M3!
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  #29  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:52 AM
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I respectfully disagree. Depending on the bike in question and the amount of horsepower along with the power curve can and has gotten plenty people in trouble; even in a straight line with no steering input needed. You see this all the time in the infamous Youtube videos.

The more powerful the bike, the more throttle control you have to exercise. The margin of error for a big horsepower sport bike is much narrower than a smaller displacement lower horsepower bike. You see this in competition as well. You don't see people in Moto3 running the same big bore engines as the GP riders.

I also get couched a lot during my track sessions where the riding coaches were emphasizing my throttle control.
Agreed. My big bore 2-stroke off-road bike was much harder to control in the turns than a 250 was. 125 is even easier to ride, because throttle is either on, or off. Even in the off-road world, on a big bore you have to roll the throttle. This takes practice. It was also easier to 'over-jump' the jumps with so much power!
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  #30  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:52 AM
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...and this is why you generally find the least skilled people on the slowest motorcycles- like Harley Davidsons. In my experience, more than 90% of them can't even tell you which way you push the handlebars to get the motorcycle to turn in the direction they intend to turn, and in my 50+ years, I've never met one on the street that knows how to perform maximum (accident avoidance type) braking.

They literally are not skilled enough to have any role in their own survival. The ones who are still alive, are only alive because no one has killed them yet.

Last edited by ZTR; 08-31-2014 at 12:06 PM.
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  #31  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:56 AM
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...and this is why you generally find the least skilled people on the slowest motorcycles- like Harley Davidsons. In my experience, more than 90% of them can't even tell you which way you push the handlebars to get the motorcycle to turn in the direction they intend to turn, and in my 50+ years, I've never met one on the street that knows how to perform maximum (accident avoidance type) braking.

The literally are not skilled enough to have any role in their own survival. The ones who are still alive, are only alive because no one has killed them yet.
We've had 4 streetbike accidents in 2 weeks in my town, all 'cruiser' bikes. 2 deaths no other vehicles involved in those, 3rd death, car made a left in front of him.
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  #32  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:57 AM
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I respectfully disagree. Depending on the bike in question and the amount of horsepower along with the power curve can and has gotten plenty people in trouble; even in a straight line with no steering input needed. You see this all the time in the infamous Youtube videos.

The more powerful the bike, the more throttle control you have to exercise. The margin of error for a big horsepower sport bike is much narrower than a smaller displacement lower horsepower bike. You see this in competition as well. You don't see people in Moto3 running the same big bore engines as the GP riders.

I also get couched a lot during my track sessions where the riding coaches were emphasizing my throttle control.
When I coach my race students on track, I spend more time fixing braking and steering problems than throttle problems. Correct throttle control is one of the FIRST things that a student should learn.

Throttle problems on track are almost always a matter of the student reducing throttle opening when they should be increasing throttle opening. A more powerful engine is not going to make them closing the throttle a bigger problem.

And the S1000RR has traction control anyway, so even if they whack it wide open, it's not gonna bite.
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  #33  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:59 AM
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We've had 4 streetbike accidents in 2 weeks in my town, all 'cruiser' bikes. 2 deaths no other vehicles involved in those, 3rd death, car made a left in front of him.
Bingo.

I have a significant amount of experience in this area, as an expert-licensed road racer, as a road-racing instructor, as a motor vehicle collision investigator (to include forensic examination of the motorcycles involved), and as a repair technician with multiple certifications. I'm not just posting words to take up space on this thread.
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  #34  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by bighorns View Post
Agreed. My big bore 2-stroke off-road bike was much harder to control in the turns than a 250 was. 125 is even easier to ride, because throttle is either on, or off. Even in the off-road world, on a big bore you have to roll the throttle. This takes practice. It was also easier to 'over-jump' the jumps with so much power!
At the track school I attend, they have a training bike called the lean bike. It has out riggers on it set low on the bike to allow you to practice hanging off and body position. The same bike can be reconfigured to be a slide bike where you practice using the throttle to slide the rear end of the bike and to successfully come out of a slide.

In this controlled setting, I can tell you it was scary when I got the rear end to slide and then the rear grabbed abruptly. I almost got launched off the bike. The training bike was a modified S1000RR which I think was set in Sport mode. I'm pretty sure it wasn't set in Race mode.

I started my riding on a very old Ninja ZX750. In many ways, I really wish I had a 250 to cut my teeth on before moving up the evolutionary bike chain. It certainly would have allowed me to play around more and to not have so many bad habits I have now that I'm trying to get rid of.
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  #35  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:05 PM
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Bingo.

I have a significant amount of experience in this area, as an expert-licensed road racer, as a road-racing instructor, as a motor vehicle collision investigator (to include forensic examination of the motorcycles involved), and as a repair technician with multiple certifications. I'm not just posting words to take up space on this thread.
You're obviously an expert. I remember a quote from Keith Code where he was teaching his track students to be aggressive riders on the street, because that got the 4-wheelers attention. I sort of get that, and I drive a little aggressive for that very reason. Safely, but aggressive.
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  #36  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:11 PM
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When I coach my race students on track, I spend more time fixing braking and steering problems than throttle problems. Correct throttle control is one of the FIRST things that a student should learn.

Throttle problems on track are almost always a matter of the student reducing throttle opening when they should be increasing throttle opening. A more powerful engine is not going to make them closing the throttle a bigger problem.

And the S1000RR has traction control anyway, so even if they whack it wide open, it's not gonna bite.
Again, I disagree with you and I base this off of how things are done at the track school I go to....California Superbike School. The first drill for everyone who has never attended their school is to do steering drills and to ride the no BS bike. The drills are to emphasize steering input and countersteering are the most important parts of getting the bike to turn.

Later on, they emphasize the use of throttle in how the bike sets into a turn and how the bike can go wide if too much throttle is applied at a given point of the turn.

I was jumped on on a number of occasions where I was applying throttle while still leaning the bike. I never wrecked but they wanted to make sure I wasn't going to get myself in trouble when they pointed this out to me.

The school emphasizes the balance between steering and throttle on the first set of drills where NO brakes are allowed. You have to properly set your entry speed and have both good steering and proper throttle control. It's a very eye opening drill.

Also, in regards to the traction control of the S1000RR, I can say you're incorrect based on my own experience. See my other post about the slide bike. I also have heard the instructors at the school warn the students that while the traction control on these bikes are very good, it doesn't compensate for all forms of stupid. I assume they have seen these instances since they deal with tons of riders in their coaching careers.
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  #37  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:12 PM
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At the track school I attend, they have a training bike called the lean bike. It has out riggers on it set low on the bike to allow you to practice hanging off and body position. The same bike can be reconfigured to be a slide bike where you practice using the throttle to slide the rear end of the bike and to successfully come out of a slide.

In this controlled setting, I can tell you it was scary when I got the rear end to slide and then the rear grabbed abruptly. I almost got launched off the bike. The training bike was a modified S1000RR which I think was set in Sport mode. I'm pretty sure it wasn't set in Race mode.
Sounds like you're talking about Code's school. And the VERY first thing Code works on, before steering, braking, or anything else, is proper throttle control (getting riders to crack the throttle open as soon as possible, and to smoothly keep rolling the throttle on without stopping, all the way through the turn.

Again, that's one of the reasons he uses the S1000RR with his students- the problem is almost always the student closing the throttle. Students almost never have problems with opening the throttle too much.
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  #38  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:13 PM
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You're obviously an expert. I remember a quote from Keith Code where he was teaching his track students to be aggressive riders on the street, because that got the 4-wheelers attention. I sort of get that, and I drive a little aggressive for that very reason. Safely, but aggressive.
Hmm....I've never heard Keith say that to any of us. And I've attended years of sessions with him providing class room briefings to him being my level 4 coach and following me around the track.
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  #39  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:17 PM
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Hmm....I've never heard Keith say that to any of us. And I've attended years of sessions with him providing class room briefings to him being my level 4 coach and following me around the track.
It's a really old quote. (I'm not that young) I would have to dig it up.
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  #40  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:21 PM
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Sounds like you're talking about Code's school. And the VERY first thing Code works on, before steering, braking, or anything else, is proper throttle control (getting riders to crack the throttle open as soon as possible, and to smoothly keep rolling the throttle on without stopping, all the way through the turn.

Again, that's one of the reasons he uses the S1000RR with his students- the problem is almost always the student closing the throttle. Students almost never have problems with opening the throttle too much.
No he doesn't. I've attended 7+ years (I lose track now) of his 2 day camp at VIR. I have NEVER seen them open any of their sessions with them practicing cracking the throttle of the bikes. NEVER. The very first session/drill at the 2 day camp is ALWAYS a steering drill for the Level 1 riders where they go back and forth in the parking lot doing countersteering and the coaches correcting any problems they see. This has ALWAYS been the first drill they do. It's been this way when the school was using the ZX-6Rs to the S1000RRs now.

The throttle control comes into play as the students get more confidence on the track and start picking up their speed.

ETA: He sees steering as such a very important part of riding where he created the no BS bike. Even though this bike is just a modified bike with a straight bar fastened to the frame of the bike not allowing you to steer the bike, he has kept this bike in the various iterations from when he was running Kawasaki's to now with BMW.

Last edited by zx10guy; 08-31-2014 at 12:29 PM.
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  #41  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:45 PM
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No he doesn't. I've attended 7+ years (I lose track now) of his 2 day camp at VIR. I have NEVER seen them open any of their sessions with them practicing cracking the throttle of the bikes. NEVER. The very first session/drill at the 2 day camp is ALWAYS a steering drill for the Level 1 riders where they go back and forth in the parking lot doing countersteering and the coaches correcting any problems they see. This has ALWAYS been the first drill they do. It's been this way when the school was using the ZX-6Rs to the S1000RRs now.

The throttle control comes into play as the students get more confidence on the track and start picking up their speed.

ETA: He sees steering as such a very important part of riding where he created the no BS bike. Even though this bike is just a modified bike with a straight bar fastened to the frame of the bike not allowing you to steer the bike, he has kept this bike in the various iterations from when he was running Kawasaki's to now with BMW.
Slow down.

The No BS bikes and skid bikes are not used on track at speed. They are low-speed parking lot type drills. In particular, the skid bike is used to convince riders to quit chopping the throttle when hitting something slippery. The No BS bike is a great tool to get guys to listen, guys who simply don't know how to steer a motorcycle.

On track, at speed, when combining the totality of the skill set in a dynamic environment, the throttle control rule is Rule #1 for a reason.

And I never said that braking and steering skills are not important- what I'm saying, is that if you're having problems with throttle control, you probably have even bigger problems with your ability to effectively steer and brake. In actual practice, I have observed that people who are afraid of motorcycles that are "too powerful", simply don't know how to ride.

Last edited by ZTR; 08-31-2014 at 12:52 PM.
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  #42  
Old 08-31-2014, 12:53 PM
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If motorcycles that are "too powerful" were in any way an impediment to learning, Code would not be using the most powerful production motorcycle made, as a learning tool for his students to use.
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  #43  
Old 08-31-2014, 07:51 PM
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Slow down.

The No BS bikes and skid bikes are not used on track at speed. They are low-speed parking lot type drills. In particular, the skid bike is used to convince riders to quit chopping the throttle when hitting something slippery. The No BS bike is a great tool to get guys to listen, guys who simply don't know how to steer a motorcycle.

On track, at speed, when combining the totality of the skill set in a dynamic environment, the throttle control rule is Rule #1 for a reason.

And I never said that braking and steering skills are not important- what I'm saying, is that if you're having problems with throttle control, you probably have even bigger problems with your ability to effectively steer and brake. In actual practice, I have observed that people who are afraid of motorcycles that are "too powerful", simply don't know how to ride.
You have your opinion and I have mine which is shared by many people in the world of motorcycling. This comes up all the time when a new rider says they want a liter bike. By your logic, anyone should just get a liter bike and have at it.

I corrected your incorrect statement which you said Keith starts off with throttle exercises. They emphasize the ability to use countersteer first as many people don't understand how important it is to get the bike turned. It becomes a pivotal part of the progression of his teachings when they discuss locking in to the tank and having a solid anchor to push onto the handlebars.

In actuality, all of Level 1 and into part of Level 2, Keith's focus is also on visual exercises on selecting reference points, using the wide view, the 2 and 3 step.
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  #44  
Old 08-31-2014, 07:56 PM
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If motorcycles that are "too powerful" were in any way an impediment to learning, Code would not be using the most powerful production motorcycle made, as a learning tool for his students to use.
Wrong again. I've talked to Keith, Cobe Fair, and the rest of the guys there at CSS. The main reason Keith shifted to the BMW S1000RRs was due to him not coming to an agreement with Kawasaki. It just happens that BMW makes a very good bike which rides like a 600. He makes everyone who is starting off on the S1000RR and have not proven themselves to stay in Rain mode. This is verified by Trevor and the other course control personnel before you exit pit lane. They look at the dash to ensure you're in the proper mode setting for the drill and your ability level. Rain mode chops the HP of the bike to 150 HP.

Keith's European branch of CSS uses Yamaha R6s and I also think the same applies to his Australian branch too.

Last edited by zx10guy; 08-31-2014 at 08:02 PM.
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  #45  
Old 08-31-2014, 10:53 PM
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So Code was not able to come to an agreement with Kawasaki, so that left him no alternative other than using the most powerful production sporting motorcycle available. Fortunately, they send the students out with "only" 150 horsepower. Theodor S. Geisel would be proud of you.

Professional track day student experience aside, have you ever actually raced anything from a 600 Supersport on up?
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:53 PM
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...and Cobie's name is not spelled "Cobe".
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  #47  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:14 PM
zx10guy zx10guy is offline
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So Code was not able to come to an agreement with Kawasaki, so that left him no alternative other than using the most powerful production sporting motorcycle available. Fortunately, they send the students out with "only" 150 horsepower. Theodor S. Geisel would be proud of you.

Professional track day student experience aside, have you ever actually raced anything from a 600 Supersport on up?
You know what. I'm done dealing with you. You have your stance on things. I have mine. You thought your stature of being an instructor would give you clout over me as being a peon track school student and wouldn't be challenged on your assertions about Keith; which I have dispelled as blatantly wrong.

I don't have to measure penis' with you and I can tell that I'm glad I have never crossed paths with such an arrogant prick like yourself who can't admit when he's wrong and responds by deflecting the issue into a personal attack.

I feel sorry for any student you have ever coached.

Last edited by zx10guy; 08-31-2014 at 11:25 PM.
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  #48  
Old 08-31-2014, 11:21 PM
zx10guy zx10guy is offline
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...and Cobie's name is not spelled "Cobe".
It's called a typo. Jerk.

Cobie and I correspond off and on via email and are Facebook friends. How about you?

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Old 10-31-2014, 01:50 PM
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Old 10-31-2014, 02:20 PM
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I think that an Ariel Atom would be perfect!
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