signs of F30 N20/N26 timing chain issue, and OCI to the rescue? - Page 6 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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  #126  
Old 04-03-2018, 09:33 AM
jwalz1 jwalz1 is offline
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As a first time BMW buyer I can say this is just one of the large disappointments in the car. Now I must say, there are a ton of things I really really appreciate about the car. It has so far been hiccup free at 37,000 miles. It is comfortable, decently quick, and surprisingly efficient for the size, weight and fact that it is AWD. The Xdrive is also top notch in snow.

But my main complaints about the car are, lousy suspension, numb steering, HORRIBLE depreciation, sub par interior materials, and the timing chain issue. The first two are well documented and shame on BMW for straying from the Ultimate Driving Machine ethos. Hopefully, they will rectify those things in the next three series. But on top of the HORRIBLE depreciation, the timing chain problem exacerbates this issue.

I do appreciate the fact that they extended the warranty on the timing chain to 70,000 miles, but 100,000 would have been better and protected buyers from what was already HORRIBLE depreciation. I understand a recall would be terribly expensive, but it would have been nice.

As someone who has bought a new car every three years for the last twenty, and just stepped into the economic strata where I can buy nice expensive german cars for the next 30-40 years I am left kind of cold on BMW.

I have never leased a car before, but that seems to be the ONLY sensible way to do a BMW. It seems that someone who has been in business as long as BMW would have the common sense to over engineer some things like a timing chain. Unfortunately, they have not. BMW has increased sales and at the same time taken some of the driving fun out of the car, tried to save money by thinning the margin for longevity in the design, reducing ED discount, trimming the covered maintenance coverage, and charging for things that are standard on run of the mill Hyundai's.

I really loved my ED experience, but I am soured on BMW because the premium price on the car does not match what you get. I paid a premium, on my Cayman and have had a completely different experience with the car and the company's attitude toward the customer. Porsche, even though they will kill you with the prices of options like BMW, will go ten extra miles to keep you happy. BMW will shrug an indifferent shrug because they think you will be easily replaced by someone else who wants the blue and white badge.

There are BMW's that I still like and would consider leasing, but they really had a chance to make a loyal customer for life after a TREMENDOUS ED experience I thought they had a customer for life. But they really don't show what I think they should show for the price it costs. If they want to charge what they do, more is needed. Both on the reliability front, or for GOD'S SAKE the driving pleasure front. I love everything about the car except it is as boring as a Camry, for 30% more $.

My main point of this complete rambling soliloquy is that a great percentage of the people who dipped their toe in the shallow end of the BMW pool, buy a model with the 4 cylinder. You built a bad one, it is screwing your customers. Either suck it up, recall them or lose them forever.

And if you buy one used or own one and want to keep it, either pay a price or assume a $2,000 cost at 70,000 miles to throw in a new timing chain and all the upgraded parts.
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Last edited by jwalz1; 04-03-2018 at 09:43 AM.
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  #127  
Old 04-03-2018, 10:20 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwalz1 View Post
And if you buy one used or own one and want to keep it, either pay a price or assume a $2,000 cost at 70,000 miles to throw in a new timing chain and all the upgraded parts.
This can be a prudent preventive maintenance to do, although it does suck that BMW does not step up to address this more than 7-yr/70k-mile ELW. At least a 12-yr/100k-mile extension would be a nice gesture to address customer loyalty.
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  #128  
Old 04-03-2018, 01:37 PM
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vw2bmw vw2bmw is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This can be a prudent preventive maintenance to do, although it does suck that BMW does not step up to address this more than 7-yr/70k-mile ELW. At least a 12-yr/100k-mile extension would be a nice gesture to address customer loyalty.


Agree with the preventive maintenance viewpoint. I think 7-yr/70k suffices for most people. Sold my 4-yr old 328 in January with only 30k on the clock and did not have one problem with the car during ownership. If you drive much more than 70k in 7 years, surely there will be many other things to consider?


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  #129  
Old 04-03-2018, 04:04 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by vw2bmw View Post
Agree with the preventive maintenance viewpoint. I think 7-yr/70k suffices for most people. Sold my 4-yr old 328 in January with only 30k on the clock and did not have one problem with the car during ownership. If you drive much more than 70k in 7 years, surely there will be many other things to consider?


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100k-mile lifetime is on and off quoted on bimmerfest for previous gen bimmers, so my thinking is at least 10 to 12 years/100k miles should be the ELW coverage for affected F30 TC.
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  #130  
Old 06-07-2018, 01:53 PM
mr_clueless mr_clueless is offline
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Given that my car is one that was affected and got the ELW --

Is it guaranteed that I will hit a problem at some point because of the design issue, maybe at 120k or 130k if I decide to keep the car that long, or could it be that my car may never actually have a problem?

While my car is covered by extended warranty to 100k and I will do my best to get out of it starting 95k, there is a small possibility I may decide to keep it longer, say to 120k. How concerned should I be about this?
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  #131  
Old 06-07-2018, 02:11 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Given that my car is one that was affected and got the ELW --

Is it guaranteed that I will hit a problem at some point because of the design issue, maybe at 120k or 130k if I decide to keep the car that long, or could it be that my car may never actually have a problem?

While my car is covered by extended warranty to 100k and I will do my best to get out of it starting 95k, there is a small possibility I may decide to keep it longer, say to 120k. How concerned should I be about this?
BMWNA and service folks are tight lips on the stats, so it is hard to get a clear picture of how extensive the issues are.

The best defense is to keep looking for shiny spots on TC links, and hearing for high-pitch whines from engine.

My guess is that for those that take time to warm up before 0-60 runs or on-ramp acceleration and such, the chance of encountering TC issues is lower than those who push the engine(esp. upon cold start).
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  #132  
Old 06-07-2018, 02:16 PM
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gkr778 gkr778 is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Is it guaranteed that I will hit a problem at some point because of the design issue, maybe at 120k or 130k if I decide to keep the car that long, or could it be that my car may never actually have a problem?
It's the latter. If the issue described in this thread was guaranteed to occur, MY 2012 to 2014 BMW vehicles with N20 and N26 engines would show a higher incidence of engine problems in reliability surveys like CR and TrueDelta.
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  #133  
Old 06-07-2018, 02:38 PM
skierrob skierrob is offline
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maybe I'm just lucky... but I now have 118,000 miles on my 2014 and have had ZERO issues with the car. I wonder just how many timing chain issues there have been compared to other models.
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  #134  
Old 06-07-2018, 02:43 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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It's the latter. If the issue described in this thread was guaranteed to occur, MY 2012 to 2014 BMW vehicles with N20 and N26 engines would show a higher incidence of engine problems in reliability surveys like CR and TrueDelta.
"Guaranteed to occur" is 100%, the numbers thrown around at local service bays is 1%+(my guess it is creeping towards 2% and up).

So is that high enough to show up at CR and TrueDelta?

In a way, both "guarantee to occur", and "never actually have a problem", are false, dependent if one's car belongs to that 1-2% or not.

Last edited by namelessman; 06-07-2018 at 03:07 PM.
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  #135  
Old 06-07-2018, 04:54 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
Is it guaranteed that I will hit a problem at some point because of the design issue, maybe at 120k or 130k if I decide to keep the car that long, or could it be that my car may never actually have a problem?
Honestly, this quote summarizes this the best:

"you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?""
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  #136  
Old 06-07-2018, 04:57 PM
mr_clueless mr_clueless is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Honestly, this quote summarizes this the best:

"you've gotta ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?""
I do not.

My car's engine already makes all kinds of weird noises depending on temperature and mood (like intermittent whistling) but I don't worry too much because I know it's under extended warranty. I would be stressing all the time if it wasn't.

Last edited by mr_clueless; 06-07-2018 at 05:02 PM.
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  #137  
Old 06-07-2018, 04:59 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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I do not.
To be specific, "feel lucky" to be part of 1-2%, or part of 98-99%? (jk)
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  #138  
Old 06-07-2018, 05:35 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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My thinking now is, if this TC issue is caught early/fixed by ELW, the car will be a keeper.

If TC causes problem after ELW and before 100k miles, this BMW will be my last one.

My next DD probably will be an entry-level Civic Type R MT, which does not have the hideous rear wing!

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-civic-type-r/
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  #139  
Old 06-07-2018, 05:43 PM
John MS John MS is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
BMWNA and service folks are tight lips on the stats, so it is hard to get a clear picture of how extensive the issues are.

The best defense is to keep looking for shiny spots on TC links, and hearing for high-pitch whines from engine.

My guess is that for those that take time to warm up before 0-60 runs or on-ramp acceleration and such, the chance of encountering TC issues is lower than those who push the engine(esp. upon cold start).
And those who take the time to warm up the engine and don't bother with 0-60 runs, races to.the next stoplight, weekend tracking and on-ramp races will never encounter a problem. There is a correlation between adult driving habits and engine longevity.
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  #140  
Old 06-07-2018, 05:59 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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And those who take the time to warm up the engine and don't bother with 0-60 runs, races to.the next stoplight, weekend tracking and on-ramp races will never encounter a problem. There is a correlation between adult driving habits and engine longevity.
Yes my driving habit does not stress the engine that much, but there are still wear marks on the TC links. There seems to be no high pitch whining yet, so it may go past 100k miles, or it may not.
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  #141  
Old 06-07-2018, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by John MS View Post
And those who take the time to warm up the engine and don't bother with 0-60 runs, races to.the next stoplight, weekend tracking and on-ramp races will never encounter a problem.
"Weekend tracking" in the form of BMW CCA autocross and HPDE events ain't gonna hurt the car at all (unless the driver collides with something). BMW cars are meant for that kind of activity.

I'm gonna do autocross and HPDE as much as I can with my F30; the timing chain guide issue described in this thread has no impact on that. If the issue ever occurs on my car, I'll get it fixed.
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  #142  
Old 06-07-2018, 06:22 PM
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Really wish everyone with, and without, the TC problem would include info on whether they used ASS (Auto Start Stop) on a daily basis.
Surely, the plastic material used with the TC is inferior. And I am absolutely convinced that the TC is stressed each and every time the motor starts. Much more so than revving the engine high before it is fully warmed up etc. etc.
There has to be a reason why some N20 motors go "forever" and others self-destruct at as little as 37k miles.
Finally, to the ones that had an engine self-destruct, did you listen to the engine once in a while? Did you look for the shiny marks on the TC?.
Knowing what to look for, and listen to, I am comfortable with my wife driving her 2015 X4 (N20) well beyond 70k miles. Worst case scenario, I'll pony up the $2K for a TC replacement if I start to hear the whining noise at a later date.
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  #143  
Old 06-07-2018, 06:39 PM
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Really wish everyone with, and without, the TC problem would include info on whether they used ASS (Auto Start Stop) on a daily basis.
+1
Good recommendation DBU!

Data points for my 2014 320i with build date of August 2013:
  • does not exhibit TC guide problem
  • used Auto Start Stop once since initial delivery at BMW Welt; turned off and never used again after that
  • 18k mi. on odometer
  • SPORT mode in DDC used always
  • spirited driving style with frequent high RPM runs, both at track events and in street driving
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  #144  
Old 06-07-2018, 08:50 PM
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Wgosma Wgosma is offline
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signs of F30 N20/N26 timing chain issue, and OCI to the rescue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EconoBox View Post
Friend is considering a 2013 328i.
What is the latest with this issue?
Is it the timing chain itself? OR the plastic guides? Or both?
What will a shop charge to fix this before it happens?


The issue as I understand it is with the plastic chain guides; I'm not that up on all this but appears to be a design error-I liken it may be similar in nature to the chain guide disintegration situation on the V-8 motors in the older E39 series cars, although with these current 4-bangers BMW has done a redesign and extended the warranty for owners. I believe there is some legal activity in the works-class action type of thing...

I've owned Bimmers for near 15 years, 1st one was an 84 318i with 4 cylinder engine- gutless but solid little car. Disheartening at best to see what these owners of N20/26 are potentially dealing with. I'm currently shopping used F25 X3's...and limiting my search to the first two model years fitted with N52 N/A I-6 motors. Just last week I drove a pristine 2013 X3 M-sport w/M20 turbo that was being sold by private seller, I asked the owner for service/repair records and queried her as to whether the chain guides had been replaced - she had all the records and replied 'Oh yeah, BMW did the chain guide replacement just last month under my CPO warranty'. N20 w/turbo runs along quite nicely even in the 4,000+ lb. X3, but I'll stick to shopping for a straight 6


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Last edited by Wgosma; 06-07-2018 at 09:06 PM.
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  #145  
Old 06-08-2018, 05:50 AM
John MS John MS is offline
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FWIW I rarely use the to stop start function.
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  #146  
Old 06-08-2018, 07:04 AM
mrminsky mrminsky is offline
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I traded in a flawless 328i with no issued for a 15 335i... I did not want to deal with any of this non sense. BMW should have had a recall PERIOD and the warranty should have been for at least 10 years and 100K miles. I hated the Automatic Start Stop mechanism on the 13 which I had to disable every time I got in the car. The 2015 remembers the setting and I never have to deal with it. I read somewhere that for the 2018 models, BMW went back to not being able to disable this feature. Can't imagine this constant on and off is good for the engine...What to save a gallon of gas every 50 fills? Dumb
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  #147  
Old 06-08-2018, 07:56 AM
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Stop/start: I was surprised when I drove the one X3 w/N20...female owner said that function did in fact increase her MPG. But it sure felt odd to have the motor ‘die’ then restart at each red light...


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  #148  
Old 06-08-2018, 08:03 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by mrminsky View Post
I traded in a flawless 328i with no issued for a 15 335i... I did not want to deal with any of this non sense. BMW should have had a recall PERIOD and the warranty should have been for at least 10 years and 100K miles. I hated the Automatic Start Stop mechanism on the 13 which I had to disable every time I got in the car. The 2015 remembers the setting and I never have to deal with it. I read somewhere that for the 2018 models, BMW went back to not being able to disable this feature. Can't imagine this constant on and off is good for the engine...What to save a gallon of gas every 50 fills? Dumb
On older models you can go to the dealer and have the "remember the last setting" coded. As far as being bad for the engine, the battery and starter are upgraded.
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  #149  
Old 06-08-2018, 08:17 AM
PK2348 PK2348 is offline
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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
On older models you can go to the dealer and have the "remember the last setting" coded. As far as being bad for the engine, the battery and starter are upgraded.
BMW themselves say that ASS will cause additional wear and tear on the vehicle.
Do you not believe them?
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  #150  
Old 06-08-2018, 08:49 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
BMW themselves say that ASS will cause additional wear and tear on the vehicle.
Do you not believe them?
Do they say "may" or "will"? I don't have an owner's manual so I'm not sure.

The point is in normal use any wear will be incremental. There are people here with 100,000+ miles on their F30's with no issues due to the ASS. Lets keep some perspective.
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