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  #1  
Old 08-23-2019, 10:36 PM
mtorque6 mtorque6 is offline
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CEL came on immediately after purchasing a N57

Couple days ago: I just bought a 2016 535D and as soon as I got on the highway the CEL was on. It wasn't on during the test drive, so it literally came on after I signed the papers. It had 51k miles and I bought it from a used car lot. It was a BMW fleet vehicle and then only had one owner. The good news is that I have 36k mile warranty.

I dropped it off at the shop and although I was expecting a simple "read the code" error, they fed me some bs about how they still had to diagnose it. So they said that the diesel exhaust fluid pump had failed. I am BRAND new to diesels and have not even heard of that. The car has been running fine (I have been driving it regularly and put probably a little under 500 miles on it). Now we are waiting for the part to come in. So what exactly is going on here? Should I be worried? Again, I'm brand new to diesels so I really have no idea.

And while we're at it, I told the dealer that I don't know anything about diesels and if there is anything I should know. He said the only thing he could think of is Adblue but I didn't get what that was all about. Also, the HUD has gone missing.

Today: Today the shop said the DEF had gotten into the tank or something and so they will have to drop the tank to see if there if any DEF in there. They could be more confident when they talk to me (And they don't call me. I only hear from them IF I call them when I get off work. So I'm already tired and just want an update, and they don't seem to be able to explain it very well and confidently). I am not a dumbass when it comes to cars so dealers/mechanics usually can't fool me but with diesels I have no idea.

Also, this isn't a diesel specific mechanic. It is the shop directly next to the dealership. I'm starting to get a little worried. Is this a thing with diesels? Even so, at 52k miles?

TLDR: Bought a 2016 535D that was a fleet vehicle and then had one owner with 51k miles. As I was driving home CEL was on (wasn't on during test drive). I purchased warranty so the shop said DEF pump is failing and now there is possibility of DEF in fuel tank or something like that. I am completely new to diesels.

Last edited by mtorque6; 08-23-2019 at 10:37 PM.
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  #2  
Old 08-23-2019, 11:02 PM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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So, nobody with an x5d has replied; you'll have to rely on me.

AdBlue *is* DEF (diesel exhaust fluid). It's all part of the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) system.

You have to fill the DEF tank every 10-15K miles or so. Pay attention to any warning: "DEF low, 1000 miles to no-start". You don't want to run completely out.

There are two pumps associated with the DEF tank(s). The transfer pump that pumps from the passive to the active tank. The pump in the active tank charges the DEF metering valve (injector), which is at the bottom of the DPF/DOC, near the turbos.

If anything but proper DEF gets into the tanks, it will cause a failure/fault due to insufficient activity in the SCR catalyst.

There are several training docs attached to a some threads. Look for "ST810" and "Advanced diesel ... blue performance (both pdf files.)
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Old 08-24-2019, 05:30 AM
Bobbyl Bobbyl is offline
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Find a new shop. The 535d only has one def tank.Need to know what code you have.If the car is running good then I would bet you have a bad oxygen sensor or a bad nitrogen oxide sensor,both are located on the diesel exhaust filter.Mine has been replaced twice under warranty.The car will still run fine ,but your mileage will drop because it is running rich.BMW has extended the warranty on both sensors to 10 years/120k miles.
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Old 08-24-2019, 06:28 AM
n1das n1das is offline
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A diesel can't run "rich" given that the engine is fuel throttled unlike a gasser which is air throttled. "Rich" and "lean" are gasoline engine concepts which are N/A to diesels. I've had NOx sensors replaced in my X5 35d and never had any mileage drop prior to replacement. The O2 sensor monitors the O2 content in the exhaust but is not used to trim fueling like it is in a gasser.

The OP needs to get the car to a BMW dealer for diagnosis. That shop doesn't have a clue. HUD stands for Heads Up Display. The shop saying that the HUD has gone missing makes no sense.

Adblue = DEF = Diesel Exhaust Fluid. Brand of DEF doesn't matter because because it is all the same and made to an ISO standard and is used worldwide. DEF is DEF is DEF is DEF....is DEF.

DEF has a shelf life in the system and may need to be replaced. The DEF tank does not have to dropped to do this, another indication that the shop doesn't have a clue. The DEF nozzle in the exhaust system may be clogged up from crystallized DEF due to the car being rarely driven or used exclusively for short trips.

I say get the car away from that shop ASAP and get it to a BMW dealer.


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2014 F10 535d Xdrive M-Sport
2012 E70 X5 35d

Why DIESEL is better: (from wxmanCCM)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home

Last edited by n1das; 08-24-2019 at 06:39 AM.
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  #5  
Old 08-24-2019, 07:14 AM
Bobbyl Bobbyl is offline
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I don't know where you got your info from but a diesel can run rich.When mine was scanned at the dealer it was code p2271 o2 sensor signal stuck RICH bank 1 sensor 2.
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Old 08-24-2019, 07:53 AM
luigi524td luigi524td is offline
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Certain components are covered by the manufacturer's "emission warranty" ... additional years and miles.
Also, given the year/mileage of this X5 I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you have any further evaluation & work performed by a BMW Service Center!
Relying on a "general car mechanic" is WAY TOO RISKY!!
Last point> READ YOUR BMW WARRANTY!!!!
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Last edited by luigi524td; 08-24-2019 at 07:55 AM.
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  #7  
Old 08-24-2019, 07:56 AM
n1das n1das is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbyl View Post
I don't know where you got your info from but a diesel can run rich.When mine was scanned at the dealer it was code p2271 o2 sensor signal stuck RICH bank 1 sensor 2.
That is a generic OBD2 code description and nothing else. It does indicate a possible O2 sensor fault.

Diesels are FUEL throttled, unlike gassers which are AIR throttled. If you want to think of it in terms of rich vs. lean, the exact mixture in a diesel engine during each combustion event is variable and depends on fueling and load. It varies from near stoichiometric at full throttle/load to incredibly lean at idle, so lean in fact that a gasoline engine won't run at all. The air intake on a diesel is unthrottled and always wide open, unlike a gasser which has a throttle plate to control the amount of air into the engine. Fueling in a diesel is adjusted to regulate torque output.

There is a "throttle" in the intake used to create a slight restriction locally to speed up the airflow to increase the EGR rate under certain conditions. It is not used to throttle the engine in the conventional sense like in a gasoline engine. The same nomenclature is used but it serves a different purpose. The air intake in our diesels is still unthrottled and wide open and operating under positive pressure from boost from the turbo. The injected fuel quantity during each injection event regulates output.

"Rich" and "lean" have no meaning here because the air/fuel mixture during each combustion event is variable and depends on fueling and load. Diesels aren't fussy about about air/fuel mixtures because they are fuel throttled, unlike gassers which are air throttled. Gassers are crippled by having to always run within a very narrow range of air/fuel mixture in order to run at all.


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2014 F10 535d Xdrive M-Sport
2012 E70 X5 35d

Why DIESEL is better: (from wxmanCCM)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home

Last edited by n1das; 08-24-2019 at 11:32 AM.
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  #8  
Old 08-24-2019, 07:56 AM
n1das n1das is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luigi524td View Post
Certain components are covered by the manufacturer's "emission warranty" ... additional years and miles.
Also, given the year/mileage of this X5 I STRONGLY RECOMMEND you have any further evaluation & work performed by a BMW Service Center!
Relying on a "general car mechanic" is WAY TOO RISKY!!
Last point> READ YOUR BMW WARRANTY!!!!
THIS!


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David Sterrett, N1DAS
2014 F10 535d Xdrive M-Sport
2012 E70 X5 35d

Why DIESEL is better: (from wxmanCCM)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home
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  #9  
Old 08-24-2019, 09:23 AM
Bobbyl Bobbyl is offline
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I don't need a lecture on how a diesel works,Have a little over 30 years hands on experience both auto and marine.
Just trying to help the OP out.
So maybe you will explain just what the oxygen sensor and the nitrogen oxide sensors do if they don,t have an input on fuel trim.
My last post on this.
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Old 08-24-2019, 09:34 AM
ard ard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtorque6 View Post
Couple days ago: I just bought a 2016 535D and as soon as I got on the highway the CEL was on. It wasn't on during the test drive, so it literally came on after I signed the papers. It had 51k miles and I bought it from a used car lot. It was a BMW fleet vehicle and then only had one owner. The good news is that I have 36k mile warranty.

I dropped it off at the shop and although I was expecting a simple "read the code" error, they fed me some bs about how they still had to diagnose it. So they said that the diesel exhaust fluid pump had failed. I am BRAND new to diesels and have not even heard of that. The car has been running fine (I have been driving it regularly and put probably a little under 500 miles on it). Now we are waiting for the part to come in. So what exactly is going on here? Should I be worried? Again, I'm brand new to diesels so I really have no idea.

And while we're at it, I told the dealer that I don't know anything about diesels and if there is anything I should know. He said the only thing he could think of is Adblue but I didn't get what that was all about. Also, the HUD has gone missing.

Today: Today the shop said the DEF had gotten into the tank or something and so they will have to drop the tank to see if there if any DEF in there. They could be more confident when they talk to me (And they don't call me. I only hear from them IF I call them when I get off work. So I'm already tired and just want an update, and they don't seem to be able to explain it very well and confidently). I am not a dumbass when it comes to cars so dealers/mechanics usually can't fool me but with diesels I have no idea.

Also, this isn't a diesel specific mechanic. It is the shop directly next to the dealership. I'm starting to get a little worried. Is this a thing with diesels? Even so, at 52k miles?

TLDR: Bought a 2016 535D that was a fleet vehicle and then had one owner with 51k miles. As I was driving home CEL was on (wasn't on during test drive). I purchased warranty so the shop said DEF pump is failing and now there is possibility of DEF in fuel tank or something like that. I am completely new to diesels.
WHO is doing the work? You said "the shop" as if it is known... is it? or is this 'oh the used car lot guys told me to go there'

Also, are you 100% sure this 36m warranty covers diesel emissions? you should know that BEFORE you drop off a car and sign an open ended work order.

If this isnt at a BMW dealer, it should be. Dropping the tank is CRAZY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sounds like this shop is utterly clueless w diesels and you will get screwed.

Hope not...report back
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OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

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  #11  
Old 08-24-2019, 10:25 AM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbyl View Post
I don't need a lecture on how a diesel works,Have a little over 30 years hands on experience both auto and marine.
Just trying to help the OP out.
So maybe you will explain just what the oxygen sensor and the nitrogen oxide sensors do if they don,t have an input on fuel trim.
My last post on this.
Good, now pay attention.

On the intake stroke the diesel gets a full cyclinder of pure air - no fuel. On the compression stroke the air charge is heated by adiabatic compression way beyond ignition temperature, and just before top of the stroke at a compression ratio ~<25:1 there are tiny squirts of fuel, in our engine up to seven. The first one ignites and the subsequent injections contribute to pressure but without the diesel knock.

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool; shun him. He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is a student; Teach him. He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep; Wake him. He who knows, and knows that he knows, is Wise; Follow him.
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Last edited by Doug Huffman; 08-24-2019 at 10:28 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-24-2019, 10:41 AM
FredoinSF FredoinSF is offline
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Oh boy. Sounds like you're going down a rough road. You need to get off of it.

1. What 'shop' is the car in? Corner gas station / generic mechanic is NOT the place to have this kind of thing diagnosed and fixed. You need a shop that not only works on European cars but also a shop that works and understands modern European diesels. I'd get the car out of where it is.
2. Certain emissions parts benefit from extended coverage from BMW. Go to this site to determine what parts apply on your car, if any http://www.bmw-rp.com/production/bmw...bmw_portal.nsf. Note that once it is listed here it is no longer reimbursed if work is done outside of a BMW dealer, you need to have the work done at the dealer.
3. You mention a warranty. Caution!!! most warranties have delayed coverage period for cases like yours, 30 days is not atypical. Further, emissions related parts are typically excluded from coverage. Hope you read the fine print.

I thought the N57 had all this stuff sorted out but apparently there are exceptions to every rule...

Please post updates and resolution.
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Old 08-24-2019, 11:58 AM
n1das n1das is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbyl View Post
I don't need a lecture on how a diesel works,Have a little over 30 years hands on experience both auto and marine.
Just trying to help the OP out.
So maybe you will explain just what the oxygen sensor and the nitrogen oxide sensors do if they don,t have an input on fuel trim.
My last post on this.
The O2 sensor is used by the engine computer (DDE in BMW-speak) to monitor the O2 content in the exhaust to trim the EGR rate. It is not used to trim fueling at all. Diesels 30 years ago probably didn't have feedback from an O2 sensor and electronics to fine tune the EGR rate. Some probably didn't have EGR at all.

The NOx sensors are used to monitor pre and post SCR catalyst NOx levels to monitor the SCR system and determine the exact level of NOx reduction. They are not used to trim fueling. The NOx sensors gradually fail because their output gradually drops as they "age" as the miles accumulate. SCR related codes eventually start being thrown by the DDE as their output gradually drops and gets outside the expected range. They are essentially maintenance items but fortunately they don't have to be replaced often.

The OP needs to get the car to a BMW Service Center (aka BMW dealer) for a proper diagnosis. The independent shop definitely doesn't have a clue. Get the car away from that shop ASAP.

Also congrats to the OP on their purchase. I have 2014 535dx and absolutely love it. Welcome aboard!
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David Sterrett, N1DAS
2014 F10 535d Xdrive M-Sport
2012 E70 X5 35d

Why DIESEL is better: (from wxmanCCM)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home

Last edited by n1das; 08-25-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 08-24-2019, 01:37 PM
mtorque6 mtorque6 is offline
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Okay now I'm freaking out. The light came on IMMEDIATELY after purchasing the car as I was driving home. I closed the deal after 7pm and got home after 8pm so I did not call them until the next morning and that's when they told me to bring it in on Monday because the shop that would do the diagnosis for me was closed (Sunday). When I called them for an update, they said that they are waiting for a part to come in from BMW. And then when I called for an update again they said that whole spiel about dropping the tank and DEF getting in there or something.

They did not tell me that I have extended warranty through BMW. Unfortunately the car is already being serviced by the, yes, "general" mechanic shop. I'm very worried/concerned now.

@FredoinSF, what exactly is a delayed coverage period?
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Old 08-24-2019, 01:56 PM
mtorque6 mtorque6 is offline
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I called my local BMW dealership and they said that coverage is limited to 50k miles and I am already at 52k miles. However, it wouldn't matter because the other shop is already working on it.

But anyways, I just called for an update and they said that whatever is in the tank is "sludgy" and can barely be moved. He is assuming DEF has been poured in the fuel tank. He said he will call BMW on Monday to see if it can be cleaned or if it will have to be replaced.
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Old 08-24-2019, 02:02 PM
ard ard is offline
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They are just lying to you. Either that or they are grossly incompetent.

"he is assumiung DEF has been poured into the fuel tank"??????????????????? WTF.

You are being lied to.

The further do the road you go with these yahoos, thje lower the odds of BMW helping you. You are getting scread by a failure to get a pre purchase inspection,, IMO. and buying a car 2k out of warranty...

I would not be at all surprised if this used car lot just reset the CEL codes...KNEW it was a problem car...then sold you a warranty and is now fixing it on your warranty (and not their dime as the seller)




Assume everything they tell you is a lie. Becuase it likely is.



OH...BMWNA can do 'good will' repairs. Repairs out of warranty. YOU DONT CALL AND ASK before the fact (they will always say no). but if a car comes in, gets diagnosed and is just out of warranty, the dealer CAN get BMWNA to cover. But not after some fly-by-night shop has F'd it up.

This is well know and documented...here and other forums... not easy to find, but known. FWIW
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM

Last edited by ard; 08-24-2019 at 02:06 PM.
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Old 08-24-2019, 02:20 PM
n1das n1das is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtorque6 View Post
I called my local BMW dealership and they said that coverage is limited to 50k miles and I am already at 52k miles. However, it wouldn't matter because the other shop is already working on it.

But anyways, I just called for an update and they said that whatever is in the tank is "sludgy" and can barely be moved. He is assuming DEF has been poured in the fuel tank. He said he will call BMW on Monday to see if it can be cleaned or if it will have to be replaced.
The sludgey stuff at the bottom of the tank may be microbial growth due to water in the fuel from condensation. It makes me wonder about the HPFP if it was recently replaced after a failure or is about to fail due to water ingestion. Either way, the OP needs to get the car away from the independent shop ASAP and get it to a BMW service center before the independent shop does a butcher job on it and destroys it.


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David Sterrett, N1DAS
2014 F10 535d Xdrive M-Sport
2012 E70 X5 35d

Why DIESEL is better: (from wxmanCCM)
PM - https://sites.google.com/view/lmarzccm/home
Air Toxics - https://sites.google.com/view/loren-marz-ccm/home
Ozone Precursors - https://sites.google.com/view/lorenmarz-ccm/home
General - https://sites.google.com/view/emissions-general/home

Last edited by n1das; 08-24-2019 at 02:31 PM.
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  #18  
Old 08-24-2019, 02:24 PM
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floydarogers floydarogers is offline
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
So, nobody with an x5d has replied; you'll have to rely on me.
Must have been asleep when I said x5d . Sorry.

But as others have noted, the story doesn't add up. Tow to someone that knows what's happening. Unfortunately, that's often the dealer.
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Old 08-24-2019, 03:33 PM
ard ard is offline
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Originally Posted by floydarogers View Post
Unfortunately, that's often the dealer.
While I often (always?) agree with this...if OP had owned the car since new...had he thrown a CEL and drove to his long-time dealer, at 2k miles over on the warranty, especially if this turns out to be one of the 'known' issues, hi odds of goodwill.

OP If you can unwind this deal, I would. Is it an over-reaction? Perhaps. But a week from not this option may be gone. (Might not really be an option now, TBH)
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Alignment here: The Definitive Alignment Thread

OE is Original Equipment aka 'BMW Original Parts' aka 'What you buy at the BMW dealer with a BMW label'

OEM is Original Equipment Manufacturer... EITHER the company that made the OE part or.... A part this is identical to the OE part, but is sold by the OEM under their own label


OEM is not what BMW sells


http://www.bimmerzone.com/category/T...ricks_OEM.html

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/t-OEvsOEM
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  #20  
Old 08-27-2019, 10:13 PM
fbray fbray is offline
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In addition to the suggestions of taking the car to a BMW dealer, the OP should consult an attorney specializing in consumer protection. Usually, the initial consultation is free or inexpensive. Worse case, contact the local lawyers' referral service. They can arrange a referral with a predetermined consultation fee.

While you shouldn't need a lawyer to get a car fixed, California has some excellent consumer protection laws. A short consultation may explain the OP's options and potential leverage.

As others have suggested, the whole chain of events suggests that something may have been amiss before the car left the lot. I'd want a truly independent shop (e.g. BMW dealer) to look at the car rather than the place the used car dealer seems to have a connection with. It's impossible to say whether or not there's been some type of fraud or other questionable activity without a disinterested expert opinion.
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Old 08-28-2019, 11:05 PM
RED-d RED-d is offline
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There are lots of competent indy shops that work on BMW's that do better work than dealers, especially with diesels. Surprised everyone thinks the dealer is the only salvation for the OP. Dealers only know how to throw parts at a problem and they are by far the most expensive at that game. Diesel emissions are best deleted on out of warranty cars as those are the most problematic components and easily $$ thousands of dollars to fix (replace).
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  #22  
Old 09-01-2019, 06:21 PM
mtorque6 mtorque6 is offline
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Location: san jose, ca
 
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Mein Auto: 99 m3
They took the car back
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  #23  
Old 09-02-2019, 09:06 AM
FredoinSF FredoinSF is offline
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Location: Reno NV & Healdsburg CA
 
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Originally Posted by mtorque6 View Post
They took the car back


Wow. Iím shocked but probably best option for you.


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  #24  
Old 09-02-2019, 01:30 PM
dzlbimmer dzlbimmer is offline
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Originally Posted by FredoinSF View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtorque6 View Post
They took the car back


Wow. I'm shocked but probably best option for you.


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After you put 500 miles on it? Almost commendable had they not gambled on it in the first place.
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  #25  
Old 09-08-2019, 01:02 AM
mtorque6 mtorque6 is offline
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I agree
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