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  #3101  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
BMW disagrees with you, at least on the 5 series where the specs are available today. According to BMW, a 530i xDrive weighs 3,926 pounds while a 530e xDrive weighs 4,407 pounds. Also, while BMW claims an electric only range of 28.5 miles, the EPA says it's actually 15 miles. To get a real 50 miles of electric only range out of it would involve a lot more batteries increasing the weight even more.
I thought you are talking about competition to BEVs. So I compared a BEV to a PHEV and I said it explicitly.


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It isn't the basic engine itself wearing out that I'm concerned about; it's all the various bits and pieces breaking after a while. Things like having to replace the entire cooling system every 100,000 miles, or less or having virtually everything plastic or rubber under the hood dying after 100,000 miles, or automatic transmissions that die after 100 to 150 thousand miles. Carbon build up in intake manifolds, leaky valve cover gaskets, rebuilding VANOS systems, and on and on and on. Yeah, the basic engine block may be good for 500k, but plenty of other parts are not.

Also, in real life, it is an infinitesimally small number of people who drive their cars like taxis. Cooling down and heating up the engine is an everyday occurrence, if not multiple times per day.
Cooling system gets stressed by the frequent heating cycle. If one uses the ICE only on the weekend long trips the number of cycles reduces by 70%. So the 100k miles becomes 350k miles. Also the cooling system gets stressed in the city driving. But it is relatively cool on the highway. Every plastic ages with the number of heating cycles.
Similarly with the lubricated parts. Most deposit happens with a cold engine. Long highway runs clean the engine and removes moisture and gasoline from the engine oil. Many things that are issue on a city driven ICE are non existent on a highway queen.





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As for the engine on a PHEV only being used on long range trips, that's nonsense unless you consider anything more than 15 miles long range in the case of the 530e. It's also nonsense because almost all of them use the gas engine whenever the car is driven in an even mildly aggressive manner, like accelerating on to the freeway for instance. In fact, the gas engine in most PHEVs frequently cycles on and off.

Not nonsense at all. I'm thinking of buying the Porsche Panamera E-Hybrid. Owners report 30 miles real world range. That is enough for my commute with 50% margin.
Porsche has several driving modes. There is an option not to use the ICE engine until the battery reaches 5% state of charge.

Future PHEVs will have more range.
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  #3102  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by acoste View Post
I thought you are talking about competition to BEVs. So I compared a BEV to a PHEV and I said it explicitly.

Cooling system gets stressed by the frequent heating cycle. If one uses the ICE only on the weekend long trips the number of cycles reduces by 70%. So the 100k miles becomes 350k miles. Also the cooling system gets stressed in the city driving. But it is relatively cool on the highway. Every plastic ages with the number of heating cycles.
Similarly with the lubricated parts. Most deposit happens with a cold engine. Long highway runs clean the engine and removes moisture and gasoline from the engine oil. Many things that are issue on a city driven ICE are non existent on a highway queen.

Not nonsense at all. I'm thinking of buying the Porsche Panamera E-Hybrid. Owners report 30 miles real world range. That is enough for my commute with 50% margin.

Future PHEVs will have more range.
Not too many people only drive their cars on longer trips on the highway. Your scenario isn't realistic for the vast proportion of drivers.

As for the Panamera Hybrid, either sell it before the warranty runs out or plan on some very expensive repair bills.

Also, again looking at weight, the Panamera Hybrid at 4,784 pounds, weighs over 600 pounds more than the Panamera 4S. If you want to compare the Panamera Hybrid to an electric vehicle, the Tesla Model S is the obvious choice and it weighs 4,883 pounds in the long range version. So, yes, the Tesla weighs 100 pounds more, a pretty insignificant amount more at that weight, but it has 20% faster acceleration and uses half as much electricity in the process even if you could only run on the batteries in the Panamera hybrid. It also has a lower center of gravity and doesn't need to turn on an extra engine every time you want to accelerate quickly.

A hybrid has all the complexity of an ICE car and an electric car combined. Long term, this does not bode well for the vehicle's reliability.

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  #3103  
Old 05-23-2019, 02:54 PM
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Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want a Panamera Hybrid. To me, the main reason to buy a Panamera versus all the other high end sedans out there, is because you want the sporty Porsche driving experience. If you just want luxury, you're better off with a 7 series, S class, or Model S. Having driven them both, I do think that a regular Panamera 4S is a bit more fun to drive in a sporty fashion than a Tesla Model S, but I think most of that is because of the lighter weight of the Panamera. With the hybrid, it ends up being a similar weight to the Tesla, and I think the Tesla would actually be more fun to drive, due to the instant response of the more powerful drivetrain and its lower center of gravity. It also helps the Tesla that a similar performing model is quite a bit less expensive than the Panamera, and the fastest Model S is quite a bit faster than the fastest Panamera.

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  #3104  
Old 05-23-2019, 03:36 PM
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Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want a Panamera Hybrid. To me, the main reason to buy a Panamera versus all the other high end sedans out there, is because you want the sporty Porsche driving experience. If you just want luxury, you're better off with a 7 series, S class, or Model S. Having driven them both, I do think that a regular Panamera 4S is a bit more fun to drive in a sporty fashion than a Tesla Model S, but I think most of that is because of the lighter weight of the Panamera. With the hybrid, it ends up being a similar weight to the Tesla, and I think the Tesla would actually be more fun to drive, due to the instant response of the more powerful drivetrain and its lower center of gravity. It also helps the Tesla that a similar performing model is quite a bit less expensive than the Panamera, and the fastest Model S is quite a bit faster than the fastest Panamera.
Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want a Tesla as it has the worst reliability, worst service department and the company uses the owners as guinea pigs and a checking account in the self driving system development.
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  #3105  
Old 05-23-2019, 04:11 PM
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Personally, I don't understand why anyone would want a Tesla as it has the worst reliability, worst service department and the company uses the owners as guinea pigs and a checking account in the self driving system development.
Well, your above comments about Tesla are a matter of opinion which many of us don't agree with. Leaving the Tesla argument alone, I still don't get why anyone would want a Panamera Hybrid versus a regular Panamera or some other luxury car. Can you explain why?
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  #3106  
Old 05-23-2019, 04:32 PM
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For someone (e.g. myself) who is impartial to AP/FSD, and wants a bit more engaging experience than typical Tesla A to B(as suggested by the reviewers), the BMW EV can be a good option.
If 19 buttons to mess with on the steering wheel (as was mentioned in the G20 3 Series video) is considered 'engaging' to you then a car from a traditional maker is probably best - it will be unlikely they'll transition to the clean cockpit of the Tesla anytime soon.

Myself, engagement means handling and throttle response. And the Model 3 is just heaps better here. So I wasn't too certain what that one guy meant by A to B driving as I'd pick my Model 3 for engagement too.

My BMWs are really only better for me as track day cars right now. Because of that one of them is slowly becoming a track car with track focused alignment, brake pads and tires. I'm taking it to Laguna Seca next week.
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  #3107  
Old 05-23-2019, 04:46 PM
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Well, your above comments about Tesla are a matter of opinion which many of us don't agree with. Leaving the Tesla argument alone, I still don't get why anyone would want a Panamera Hybrid versus a regular Panamera or some other luxury car. Can you explain why?
Responding to the Tesla first it is not just an opinion and you quickly wanted to skip the subject. Basically Tesla makes good cars, but it's just a small percentage of the total cars they sell. One has to be lucky to get those.

https://www.whatcar.com/news/2018-wh...-survey/n17824
(reliability score 50.9%)
"41% of the Tesla Model S cars owned by those who responded to the survey had faults."
"Just over half of the cars were out of action for at least a week and some fixes cost more than £1500,"

https://insideevs.com/news/351171/te...rway-problems/
"Tesla's complaints per unit in 2018 were more than three times higher than the average both for electric cars and cars in total."

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...-tesla.153633/
How honest are you about Tesla issues when speaking to friends/family that want to buy a Tesla?

"First, I told him that there are software glitches. Then I told him OTA updates come out often. etc..

Phone key sometimes not working, back up cam not coming on occasionally, and having to mess with windshield wiper controller on the screen while driving are some of the things I wouldn't want my father to deal with.
I would not recommend the car to anyone.
If someone who has watched dozens of Youtube videos and who is aware of all the little problems ask me about the car, then I would be talking about other things like efficiency and driving feel.
Also, I would not recommend AP unless they are aware of phantom braking and ambivalence when the lanes merge.
"

"It can do a lot of things but not reliably."

"It is a nice car, don't look too close to it like a QA guy, don't mind about being misinform from the salesman, don't mind about all those price changes daily that you will miss out, and best of all don't crash it or else kiss your car goodbye for a long time"


Survey on the Porsche from the first link (reliability score 94.5%)
"Some 20% of Porsche 911s had a problem, but most (13%) were non-engine electrical issues that were rectified in a day. The 911's overall score is dragged down by 7% of cars, which had engine problems that took more than a week to resolve. All cars were fixed for free, though."

You made me laugh hard that the PHEV Panamera in my use case would need more repair than a Tesla. I have already explained it to you why the PHEVs in this operating mode will last a lot longer than a short range PHEV or an ICE. Not gonna repeat it.


As for autopilot. If you are ok to be the test dummy that's fine. Just don't use autopilot around me. If you are ok to work for free for Tesla and monitor the system constantly + report bugs, that's ok. And if you are ok to pay for the damages that were caused by a bug in the software that's fine as well.



Now the Panamera. Tesla's luxury content is far from any of the Germans so those are not comparable.I want a quiet car. I also don't want rattles. And I don't want a BEV as I prefer PHEVs.
Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Porsche are targeting different groups of people. There are Mercedes guys, Audi fans and so on. The Porsche and the BMW groups are the closest to each with some overlap.
I'm a BMW 5 series guy, that's the perfect size and feels like home. Panamera is the only similar car from Porsche. 911 is too small, not my style, however I love driving them and the sound with the top down. I'm bored in an Audi/Mercedes even if it's AMG. The only exception is the G Mercedes.
As for which car is faster, I don't mind if the Panamera is not the fastest. I just need a fast car.

I don't expect high maintenance costs due to their good reliability. But even if it happens, not going to make me broke.
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  #3108  
Old 05-23-2019, 05:50 PM
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If 19 buttons to mess with on the steering wheel (as was mentioned in the G20 3 Series video) is considered 'engaging' to you then a car from a traditional maker is probably best - it will be unlikely they'll transition to the clean cockpit of the Tesla anytime soon.

Myself, engagement means handling and throttle response. And the Model 3 is just heaps better here. So I wasn't too certain what that one guy meant by A to B driving as I'd pick my Model 3 for engagement too.
Your post#3097 says this:

"given the question of what they'd pick if BMW made an all electric 3 series that drove as well as the Tesla ...."

To be fair, this all electric 3 series is not yet in sight yet, so it is unclear if it has 19 buttons, but as far as your proposition in post#3097 goes, this future 3 series EV has to have handling and throttle response at par(or better than?) Tesla, right?
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  #3109  
Old 05-23-2019, 06:18 PM
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The comment in post#3089 says "starting 2020", given 200-mile range offerings from Mini, Nissan, VW, and others will start to roll out.
You said “a sizeable volume”. That to me is in numbers of vehicles sold not numbers of models. By the way VW is not going to sell the ID.3 in the US. The only info I found on a Mini EV shows it using the i3 power train which does not have 200 mile electric range.
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  #3110  
Old 05-23-2019, 06:49 PM
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As for autopilot. If you are ok to be the test dummy that's fine. Just don't use autopilot around me. If you are ok to work for free for Tesla and monitor the system constantly + report bugs, that's ok. And if you are ok to pay for the damages that were caused by a bug in the software that's fine as well.
CR is not happy withTesla Autopilot Navigate mode, although it appears not to be default mode. One guy at lunch today said the driver should see all those polygons and lines and 0's and 1's that the computer sees, just like Tank in the Matrix!

https://www.consumerreports.org/auto...-intervention/

It does feel like the current Tesla owners are like unpaid test pilots for Tesla, a few paying with their lives.
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  #3111  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:00 PM
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You said "a sizeable volume". That to me is in numbers of vehicles sold not numbers of models. By the way VW is not going to sell the ID.3 in the US. The only info I found on a Mini EV shows it using the i3 power train which does not have 200 mile electric range.
To be fair, post#3086 says this ".... a sizable shift to EVs of all makes".

"Sizeable" means "big".

"Shift" means, well, "shift", it can be applied to a number of things, e.g. volume, mindset.

Starting 2020 the EV landscape will see a pipeline of offerings, which may or may not ramp up EV volume quickly(TBD). What may also shift is the mindset of general public as far as EV is concerned, and that will help Tesla.
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  #3112  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:00 PM
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Rag on Tesla

Mercedes/Audi/BMW/Porsche are targeting different groups of people. There are Mercedes guys, Audi fans and so on. The Porsche and the BMW groups are the closest to each with some overlap.
I'm a BMW 5 series guy, that's the perfect size and feels like home. Panamera is the only similar car from Porsche. 911 is too small, not my style, however I love driving them and the sound with the top down. I'm bored in an Audi/Mercedes even if it's AMG. The only exception is the G Mercedes.
As for which car is faster, I don't mind if the Panamera is not the fastest. I just need a fast car.

I don't expect high maintenance costs due to their good reliability. But even if it happens, not going to make me broke.
Well you went on and on and on bashing Tesla and never did answer the question presented in the post you were supposedly responding to. Are you just here to troll? Can you actually answer the question I asked? Also, if you're "a BMW 5 series guy", why not buy another 5 series?

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I still don't get why anyone would want a Panamera Hybrid versus a regular Panamera or some other luxury car. Can you explain why?
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  #3113  
Old 05-23-2019, 07:43 PM
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Well you went on and on and on bashing Tesla and never did answer the question presented in the post you were supposedly responding to. Are you just here to troll? Can you actually answer the question I asked? Also, if you're "a BMW 5 series guy", why not buy another 5 series?
I don't like the rear end of the G30. Too girlish. Plus 530e is a 4cyl. If they came up with 540e, inline 6 & 50 miles range, I would give it a thought specially that it's half the price of the Pana.

Why PHEV? I don't want to pollute in the city. And I feel sorry for the ICE which hates short trips. EV is perfect for those. And I can drive silently or I can drive in spirited ICE mode, enjoying the engine sound.
Yes, the weight is a minus for sure. But the active sway bars help a lot. I have zero body roll on my 550i in the curves.
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  #3114  
Old 05-23-2019, 11:37 PM
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Have fun with your 4800lb PHEV . Just sounds like the worst of both worlds to me, I agree with GregD. Don't want the complexity of both in one car and carry the weight and complexity of two complete drive and power trains.

I'll take an all electric spaceship torque and speed monster like the Model 3 along with a lightweight ICE dedicated track monster. Two cars but best of both worlds.
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  #3115  
Old 05-24-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
To be fair, post#3086 says this ".... a sizable shift to EVs of all makes".

"Sizeable" means "big".

"Shift" means, well, "shift", it can be applied to a number of things, e.g. volume, mindset.

Starting 2020 the EV landscape will see a pipeline of offerings, which may or may not ramp up EV volume quickly(TBD). What may also shift is the mindset of general public as far as EV is concerned, and that will help Tesla.
I guess that is what you meant. If you say so.
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:17 AM
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I'll take an all electric spaceship torque and speed monster like the Model 3 along with a lightweight ICE dedicated track monster. Two cars but best of both worlds.
Once 2-car setup is accepted, there should be quite an array of options to consider in addition to Tesla EV + BMW ICE. E.g. there is a coworker that drive Sienna as DD and 911 GTS as track.

That brings up another point, namely, my impression is that BMW's UDM (esp. M) supposedly provides one car(comfort + competence, with compromise?) for both use, so the demand, at the right prices, for BMW's(ICE and subsequently its EV/hybrid) should still be around.
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Old 05-24-2019, 10:36 AM
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Once 2-car setup is accepted, there should be quite an array of options to consider in addition to Tesla EV + BMW ICE. E.g. there is a coworker that drive Sienna as DD and 911 GTS as track.

That brings up another point, namely, my impression is that BMW's UDM (esp. M) supposedly provides one car(comfort + competence, with compromise?) for both use, so the demand, at the right prices, for BMW's(ICE and subsequently its EV/hybrid) should still be around.
I wanted an i3 for city driving next to the 550i but my wife hates the look of it. Hope i can convince her to replace her super boring Acura with this X5 PHEV.
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  #3118  
Old 05-24-2019, 10:44 AM
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I wanted an i3 for city driving next to the 550i but my wife hates the look of it. Hope i can convince her to replace her super boring Acura with this X5 PHEV.
The i3 + extended range street drives at UDE events were great, it was just that when extended mechanism kicked in, the car had no zoom going uphill!

On paper i3 + extended is a great idea, but in practice someone needs to improve it, a lot(in addition to the look, which subjectively is not too bad for me).
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:17 PM
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Old 05-24-2019, 07:17 PM
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A Tesla hits a truck while on Autopilot and it is big news. A car hits a truck while on cruise control and no one notices. Then again, in most cases, it is impossible to know if the car was on cruise control.

Europe is about to undergo a dramatic change. City centers are beginning to crack down on ICE cars and that will increase. Countries are talking about when (not if) they will ban the sale of ICE cars. In Europe, 200 miles of range is probably workable for a lot of people. In the US, 200 miles, to me, is still a city car. In Europe CCS charging is prevalent. In the US, Tesla has the only large scale fast charging network although Electrify America may change that. It may not be 2020 but I think 2021 is when the shift will become apparent to most people. Norway is already over 50% EV sales. California is 5%. ICE cars will continue to sell for a long time but they are under assault.

People once thought they were glorified golf carts. Then Tesla showed otherwise. Next it was straight line performance only. However, the Model 3 is changing that on the low end and we are seeing electrification even in the exotics. The Pike's Peak hill climb record is now owned by an electric car. If performance ceases to matter and it is just the experience, then perhaps the Miata moves to the top or even an old Triumph TR6.

There is a reason automatics have replaced manuals on most cars. Daily driving is what people do most of the time - not long trips or track time or mountain road jaunts. Having owned many manual shift cars I can tell you I prefer an automatic when in stop and go traffic. All alone on a twisty road is something entirely different. The instant response of electrics combined with one pedal driving is wonderful in daily driving.

I'm curious what an electrified 3 series will be like. I hope BMW does a better job than Audi. Audi got a lot right but 204 miles on a very large battery pack is a huge issue for me. I'm trying to keep an open mind with respect to Porsche. The original Mission E was stunning but the Taycan seems to be morphing into a Panamera which I find more blah in terms of styling. The Porsche statement that they will separate regenerative braking out from the accelerator is also disappointing.

I've been a car person since I was very little but the only car brand I probably ever hated was the Yugo. I understand different people liking different things but the hatred I don't understand.
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Old 05-24-2019, 08:44 PM
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Old 05-24-2019, 09:04 PM
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This thread is like the "steam guys" bashing petrol cars.

Electric cars already are the future. Many mechanics will be replaced with IT techs, but not all. Tomorrow's hotrod tuners are today's computer science majors.

Electric cars are only going to get better, not worse, and they are still really in their child years. They already do near as makes no difference, everything better than petrol cars. In 10 years your Ferrari of today won't even be able to touch a mid level electric car, or truck.
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Old 05-25-2019, 05:43 AM
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This thread is like the "steam guys" bashing petrol cars.

Electric cars already are the future. Many mechanics will be replaced with IT techs, but not all. Tomorrow's hotrod tuners are today's computer science majors.

Electric cars are only going to get better, not worse, and they are still really in their child years. They already do near as makes no difference, everything better than petrol cars. In 10 years your Ferrari of today won't even be able to touch a mid level electric car, or truck.
One mistake a lot of people make is to look at where things are rather than where they are going. People looked at solar back in 1980 and said it was too expensive and stopped there. Today prices are much lower and payback is often more like 6 to 8 years. People look at batteries today and think they will stay the same. In reality performance keeps improving and costs keep going down.

EV's keep getting better. Yeah, so do ICE cars but the improvements in EV's are more dramatic.
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Old 05-25-2019, 10:24 AM
targaone targaone is offline
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When delivery trucks become electric then we will know that the price point has been hit.

If your looking at a 7000 dollar used car based on performance and cost of ownership , the electric aspect is here partially. My neighbor has bought 3 used toyota prius cars. Paid about 4 or 5 k and put on new tires and suspension parts.. they are not big or super comfy, but they are super reliable and get fantastic mileage. Two of them have made trips from milwaukee to california , my friends son is an engineer and got a job with tesla...

When a used fully electric car is at that cost factor used... the new selling price would be around 25 k. We are not there yet... the batteries are getting better, range is getting better. Recharge places in the midwest are very sketchy at best. But my friends doing new houses or updates are all making 240 volt high current drops in their garage plans.. so that will be the first stage. People will be comfortable with one fully electric car if they can charge it at home.
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