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  #3701  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Since this is a buffer at the bottom, it means that the car will keep running beyond the 0% displayed SoC. It is very unlikely that the software would stop the car at 0% even though there is more juice left in the battery.
But for whatever reason Tesla decided that users shouldn't use that capacity at the bottom.
I hope somebody tests it. It would be nice to know just what 0% means. I seem to recall a video of someone running a Tesla down to 0 before, but I think it was a model S.
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  #3702  
Old 10-16-2019, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I hope somebody tests it.
This guy did. Or that somebody can be yourself, take one for the team!

"For those who are curious, we traveled 2-3 miles after it hit "0" before reaching the charging station. We then sat for 5 mins with the car on before a stall opened. At that point, we could still open the doors normally (not using the manual latches), get our stuff out of both trunks, and open the charging port."

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  #3703  
Old 10-16-2019, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GregD View Post
I hope somebody tests it. It would be nice to know just what 0% means. I seem to recall a video of someone running a Tesla down to 0 before, but I think it was a model S.

Model S has 4kWh buffer at the bottom (at least on that model at that sw version):

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/2053930/

Look at the first graph,
cell voltage is 3.2V, (blue on the right)
car displays 0% SoC
BMS reports 5.3% SoC internally

the guy kept driving it further down, see the 2nd image
cell voltage is 3V, (blue on the right)
car displays 0% SoC (shows -6% on the energy app)
BMS reports 0% SoC internally


This battery is the closest to the Tesla battery. On the bottom right graph you can see the cell voltage vs state of charge at different current draw
https://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/NCR18650B.pdf
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  #3704  
Old 10-17-2019, 01:02 AM
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So Mr. Bjorn can't resist digging into this:

@5:50, running down from 99% to 5%(94%) with displayed 204Wh/km for 327km gives him a capacity of 71kWh.

The car is Model 3 LR with 75kWh, so the range loss is close to 5%? Or does it have 4kWh reserve at the bottom?

His car was bought in June 2019, and has less than 14000 km in 4 months.


Last edited by namelessman; 10-17-2019 at 01:03 AM.
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  #3705  
Old 10-17-2019, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
Since this is a buffer at the bottom, it means that the car will keep running beyond the 0% displayed SoC. It is very unlikely that the software would stop the car at 0% even though there is more juice left in the battery.
But for whatever reason Tesla decided that users shouldn't use that capacity at the bottom.
There is yet someone to run beyond 0%/0 mile to figure out how much kWh is left below zero. From some other utube videos there seems to be people able to get 2-3miles below 0 mile.

Bjorn's experiment got to 5% left, and his math says only 71kWh total, for a 4-month old car with 17000km, that is 4% less than 75kWh advertised capacity ....
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  #3706  
Old 10-17-2019, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
So Mr. Bjorn can't resist digging into this:

@5:50, running down from 99% to 5%(94%) with displayed 204Wh/km for 327km gives him a capacity of 71kWh.

The car is Model 3 LR with 75kWh, so the range loss is close to 5%? Or does it have 4kWh reserve at the bottom?

His car was bought in June 2019, and has less than 14000 km in 4 months.


The total battery capacity is believed to be slightly above 80kWh.

In the EPA tests the LR delivered 78.27kWh energy. In the EPA test the car gets driven until the power output drops due to depleted battery. They keep driving it until it "stops".

Therefore if there is a top buffer, the EPA test can't measure it. (The car won't charge beyond 100% displayed SoC, while the real SoC is ~90% > for example the Audi E-Tron)
However the bottom buffer will be measured in the EPA cycle since the car doesn't stop at 0% displayed SoC. but keeps going until the battery completely discharges.
(caveat: in cars that turn off the motors before the battery bites into the bottom reserve, it can't be measured of course. but I know that Nissan Leaf for example keeps driving until it dies and the Tesla S I linked before works the same way)

This might be the answer why EPA measured 78.27kWh and Bjorn measured 74.5kWh (on a new car) >>>> 3kWh buffer at the bottom

However there is one more factor that makes these measurements different. EPA uses a dyno while Bjorn does real life testing. When on a dyno there is no wind and no weight acceleration so the energy consumption is lower (which they correct later). The battery gives more capacity with lower consumption. So the EPA number might be overly optimistic about the battery capacity. I have to check if EPA does some correction factor here.
EDIT: now that I thought about it, EPA does add the wind and kinetic energy factor by adjusting the brakes on the dyno, so the energy consumption should be near the real life measurement and the measured battery capacity should be correct. ignore this last sentence about one more factor


I will also have to check Jack Richards videos maybe he shows some real BMS readings.
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Last edited by acoste; 10-17-2019 at 10:57 AM.
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  #3707  
Old 10-17-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
This might be the answer why EPA measured 78.27kWh and Bjorn measured 74.5kWh (on a new car) >>>> 3kWh buffer at the bottom.
So there is a 3kWh bottom buffer, while Bjorn observed a drop of 74.5kWh to 71kWh above bottom, in a 4-month old car. That is shaving 5% off the advertised range of Model 3 LR .... it is understandable some Model 3 owners are talking about class action lawsuits now.

Well this again reinforces my year-long recommendation, namely, the cheapest Model 3 [email protected]$35k is the one to get!
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  #3708  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
So there is a 3kWh bottom buffer, while Bjorn observed a drop of 74.5kWh to 71kWh above bottom, in a 4-month old car. That is shaving 5% off the advertised range of Model 3 LR .... it is understandable some Model 3 owners are talking about class action lawsuits now.

Well this again reinforces my year-long recommendation, namely, the cheapest Model 3 [email protected]$35k is the one to get!
There is one more data point here:

he measured his car back in april at 5k miles and got 73.2kWh.

however I found something more interesting!
New cars are listed with 500km / 310miles range => 149Wh/km
His car at 5k miles was using the constant of 146 Wh/km
Currently the constant on his car is at 144Wh/km

As if Tesla trying to hide the battery degradation by lowering the constant over the lifetime of the vehicle. Wow. Needs to check this on more cars.

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  #3709  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
There is one more data point here:

he measured his car back in april at 5k miles and got 73.2kWh.

however I found something more interesting!
New cars are listed with 500km / 310miles range => 149Wh/km
His car at 5k miles was using the constant of 146 Wh/km
Currently the constant on his car is at 144Wh/km

As if Tesla trying to hide the battery degradation by lowering the constant over the lifetime of the vehicle. Wow. Needs to check this on more cars.

These utube posts and measurements are hard to interpret as they are not in control group, e.g. same temp, same distance, same wind, same humidity, same lead foot intensity.

Basically a robot needs to drive a Model 3 in a controlled environment and takes measurement every 5k miles(e.g.).

Or each Tesla has onboard storage(better not be flash that can wear out) that logs all the above data, and an independent govt agency can run some AI/ML/big data to normalize all the data to get a true picture of what is happening.
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  #3710  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
These utube posts and measurements are hard to interpret as they are not in control group, e.g. same temp, same distance, same wind, same humidity, same lead foot intensity.

Basically a robot needs to drive a Model 3 in a controlled environment and takes measurement every 5k miles(e.g.).

Or each Tesla has onboard storage(better not be flash that can wear out) that logs all the above data, and an independent govt agency can run some AI/ML/big data to normalize all the data to get a true picture of what is happening.
It is very easy to check the constant used. That doesn't depend on driving.

Take a note at range at 100% [fullrange]
Drive it down to near 0 (20-30% works as well, the closer to 0 the better)
check the total energy consumption on the display [totalEconsumed]
note the remaining distance [remainingrange]

constant Wh/km = totalEconsumed / (fullrange-remainingrange)
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  #3711  
Old 10-17-2019, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acoste View Post
constant Wh/km = totalEconsumed / (fullrange-remainingrange)
Let's assume fixed environment with same temp, humidity, wind speed, elevation change, same driver, etc, etc.

How does reduced constant Wh/km infer reduced battery capacity and/or reduced range?
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  #3712  
Old 10-17-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Let's assume fixed environment with same temp, humidity, wind speed, elevation change, same driver, etc, etc.

How does reduced constant Wh/km infer reduced battery capacity and/or reduced range?
The change in the constant itself does not indicate anything. But it can hide degradation.

If the constant is "constant" ie Tesla doesn't change it at all,
the displayed range at 100% SoC would reflect the actual capacity of the battery (at least the best guess from BMS)

If one has 0%, 3% and 6% degradation at 0, 5k, 30k miles respectively, the car would display
500km / 485km / 470km range
at full charge with an unchanged constant

However if the constant changes from 149 to 146 and 144 the car will display
500km / 495km / 486km range
at full charge

So it will hide some of the degradation.
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Last edited by acoste; 10-17-2019 at 04:25 PM.
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  #3713  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:15 PM
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Daily Mail: Father-of-eight invents an electric car battery to take drivers 1,500 miles without charging it.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arging-it.html

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  #3714  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:51 PM
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Daily Mail: Father-of-eight invents an electric car battery to take drivers 1,500 miles without charging it.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...arging-it.html

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Wow this can be the next Dyson.
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  #3715  
Old 10-19-2019, 10:57 PM
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The similarities to the Dyson inventor story are quite striking including the determined opposition from the automobile industry establishment.

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Last edited by Dio///M; 10-19-2019 at 11:01 PM.
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  #3716  
Old 10-20-2019, 10:13 AM
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Model 3 starts delivery, is that really the 3-series killer?

Tesla gonna Test the truck market.

Whitelandia outrage in 5..4...3..2...


https://24news.live/tesla-pickup-tru...ny/?kaci=ivica
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  #3717  
Old 10-20-2019, 10:47 AM
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The similarities to the Dyson inventor story are quite striking including the determined opposition from the automobile industry establishment.

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This new tech looks like air aluminum battery/fuel cell, Tesla has an open patent on a lithium-ion battery + air-Al battery system.

Tesla forum posts say this type of air-Al is around 60% efficient and consumes Al(lots of it), so if this new tech can solve those 2 problems it will be viable tech.
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  #3718  
Old 10-21-2019, 11:57 AM
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It looks like i3 will live on:

https://www.bimmerfest.com/news/1351...on-gain-range/
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  #3719  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:34 PM
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A coworker's power has been out for 2 days now due to PG&E shutoff. His Model 3 ran dry after returning home from a trip and was furloughed since.

His wife is driving the other iCE, while he rents another ICE in the meantime to get to work. He does plan to tow his Model 3 to closet charging port to recharge.

It looks like this type of high wind and power shutoff will become common place going forward. My coworker plans to install a generator but PG&E approval will take 3-6 months best case.
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  #3720  
Old 10-28-2019, 11:50 PM
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My friends are with no power as well. I thought this could happen in a 3rd world country only.
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  #3721  
Old 10-29-2019, 12:30 AM
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My friends are with no power as well. I thought this could happen in a 3rd world country only.
It does seem that California is aspiring to 3rd world status. California is a good state to be from.
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  #3722  
Old 10-29-2019, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
A coworker's power has been out for 2 days now due to PG&E shutoff. His Model 3 ran dry after returning home from a trip and was furloughed since.

His wife is driving the other iCE, while he rents another ICE in the meantime to get to work. He does plan to tow his Model 3 to closet charging port to recharge.

It looks like this type of high wind and power shutoff will become common place going forward. My coworker plans to install a generator but PG&E approval will take 3-6 months best case.
Yeah have fun California with your public defecation epidemics, rampant uncontrolled deficit, high speed rail boondoggles, underfunded and very VERY shady pension funds.. you guys have fun and keep voting D. Unfortunately my state has decided to embark down the same path of liberal lunacy (in part due to all the refugees from screwed up deep blue states turning this state blue) so I guess we're in for it too.

I will always have at least one gas burner car for use during emergency/power-outage situations.

I also have a pair of portable generators that can be put in tandem and pump out close to 20 amps so I could put some emergency charge on my Model 3 if I had to.

Last edited by voip-ninja; 10-29-2019 at 08:32 AM.
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  #3723  
Old 10-29-2019, 09:49 AM
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Yeah have fun California with your public defecation epidemics, rampant uncontrolled deficit, high speed rail boondoggles, underfunded and very VERY shady pension funds.. you guys have fun and keep voting D. Unfortunately my state has decided to embark down the same path of liberal lunacy (in part due to all the refugees from screwed up deep blue states turning this state blue) so I guess we're in for it too.

I will always have at least one gas burner car for use during emergency/power-outage situations.

I also have a pair of portable generators that can be put in tandem and pump out close to 20 amps so I could put some emergency charge on my Model 3 if I had to.
Did you measure your battery degradation? Tesla Bjorn is at -6% at 25k miles.
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  #3724  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:23 AM
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I also have a pair of portable generators that can be put in tandem and pump out close to 20 amps so I could put some emergency charge on my Model 3 if I had to.
What is your mpge with the portable generators?
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  #3725  
Old 10-29-2019, 10:24 AM
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What is your mpge with the portable generators?
it's garbage but I don't think I'm going to worry about fuel economy during a zombie apocalypse or during any invasion attempt from California in which I have to fight off hordes of hippies complaining about climate change. It will be scary rifles vs. birkenstocks and soy lattes so I don't think the fight will last very long anyway.
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