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  #1  
Old 09-24-2019, 11:53 AM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Stalling while driving, no loss of electric. Starts back up after 5 minutes, HELP

I have been battling this issue for a few weeks now and I don't really want to go to a dealer but it looks like I might have to. I figured I would give one last shot at getting some advice from others before going down that path.

Here is what is going on:
2011 328i xdrive 6 speed has developed a gremlin over the last couple weeks or so.

Car starts great, no warning lights, however after about 15 minutes of driving it stalls. Wait 3-5 minutes (sometimes less but has yet to take longer than 5 minutes to restart) and it fires right back up and drives for another 15 minutes (approximately) and then dies again. Doesn't matter the speed or gear I'm in.

Car has a full tank of gas.
No warning lights. I have a higher end scanner and there are no codes or stored codes and the live data looks good with nothing out of the ordinary that I can tell. No stored codes.

New brand new cam sensor did not change anything.

Car just rolled over 130k, Had the level 1 inspection and service done at approximately 100k with no issues other than the oil filter housing gasket seeping slightly. Car is 95% highway driven in 6th gear with cruise set at 65.

All fuses were inspected and nothing out of the ordinary.
I hear the fuel pump prime when I go to start it in the morning. I cannot tell if the pump primes because I am usually pulled over on the side of the highway when it dies and cannot hear much due to the noise.

Any direction of things to check would be great.


edit: No loss in MPG that I can tell. It has also never stalled at idle or under a heavy load. It has always been at a consistent RPM and speed or at a slight acceleration.
I have found, maybe just a coincidence, that revving it a little at stop lights or putting it in neutral while at cruising speeds and revving it a bit delays any stalling. I also noticed that it tends to stall more in the morning as opposed to my trip home from work. Once car dies/stalls/starts to die, giving it gas does not make it sputter or act any differently. It just dies. Also when trying to restart it does not sputter or act differently it just cranks as normal but does not start unless I let it sit for a couple of minutes.

Last edited by three28eye; 09-24-2019 at 12:53 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 12:02 PM
BabyUnicornTaco BabyUnicornTaco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
I have been battling this issue for a few weeks now and I don't really want to go to a dealer but it looks like I might have to. I figured I would give one last shot at getting some advice from others before going down that path.



Here is what is going on:

2011 328i xdrive 6 speed has developed a gremlin over the last couple weeks or so.



Car starts great, no warning lights, however after about 15 minutes of driving it stalls. Wait 3-5 minutes (sometimes less but has yet to take longer than 5 minutes to restart) and it fires right back up and drives for another 15 minutes (approximately) and then dies again. Doesn’t matter the speed or gear I’m in.



Car has a full tank of gas.

No warning lights. I have a higher end scanner and there are no codes or stored codes and the live data looks good with nothing out of the ordinary that I can tell. No stored codes.



New brand new cam sensor did not change anything.



Car just rolled over 130k, Had the level 1 inspection and service done at approximately 100k with no issues other than the oil filter housing gasket seeping slightly. Car is 95% highway driven in 6th gear with cruise set at 65.



All fuses were inspected and nothing out of the ordinary.

I hear the fuel pump prime when I go to start it in the morning. I cannot tell if the pump primes because I am usually pulled over on the side of the highway when it dies and cannot hear much due to the noise.



Any direction of things to check would be great.


Possibly a fuel delivery issue like vapor lock? It happens after you have been driving and not right away.


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  #3  
Old 09-24-2019, 12:29 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Originally Posted by BabyUnicornTaco View Post
Possibly a fuel delivery issue like vapor lock? It happens after you have been driving and not right away.


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I agree that it may be a fuel delivery issue or possibly an issue interrupting the spark. Just trying to figure out what the root cause is. It is so consistent that I am pulling over every morning on the same stretch of road. I am driving my work truck the rest of the week, so I will have a few days to try to poke around a little more.
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Old 09-24-2019, 01:25 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
...2011 328i xdrive...Car starts great, no warning lights, however after about 15 minutes of driving it stalls. Wait 3-5 minutes (sometimes less but has yet to take longer than 5 minutes to restart) and it fires right back up and drives for another 15 minutes (approximately) and then dies again...I have a higher end scanner and there are no codes or stored codes and the live data looks good [WHAT brand/model Scan Tool? Can it connect to EKP and read Fuel Pump Parameters, such as Setpoint RPM, Actual RPM, Voltage and TEMPERATURE?]...I hear the fuel pump prime when I go to start it in the morning. I cannot tell if the pump primes because I am usually pulled over on the side of the highway when it dies and cannot hear much due to the noise. [THAT's where you need to be able to read EKP Parameters]...It has also never stalled at idle or under a heavy load. It has always been at a consistent RPM and speed or at a slight acceleration...Once car dies/stalls/starts to die, giving it gas does not make it sputter or act any differently. It just dies. Also when trying to restart it does not sputter or act differently it just cranks as normal but does not start unless I let it sit for a couple of minutes.
Sure sounds like the Fuel Pump (OR the EKP controlling/powering the Pump, just shuts down after it runs for a certain time/ attains a certain temperature. Do you have N51 or N52 (simpler tank setup)? If N51, the issue MAY be covered under extended N51 SULEV warranty. If you have a scan tool that will do Activation of the Fuel Pump, either when connected to DME, or when connected to EKP Fuel Pump Module, check to see if you have "Pump Speed Deviation" or difference between requested speed and Actual Speed, both after cold start, and also after idle for 5 to 10 minutes.

If you have a Scan Tool or Software/Laptop (such as INPA/ISTA) that will allow (1) reading of Parameters of Pump Speed, Temp, Voltage, and also (2) Activate Pump, over-riding DME/EKP Control of Pump (INPA allows connection to EITHER Module to do that), best way I know to get a definitive diagnosis is to do a "dry run" when system operating properly so you know what Live Date SHOULD look like (just standing at idle, NOT driving), and also monitor data when you turn ignition off, wait a few seconds, and then turn ignition back on, and continue monitoring during starter cranking.

Then, knowing what the Parameters are SUPPOSED to look like, find a safe road and time to drive until it stalls, and then view same screen/Parameters with ignition ON, without trying to start, and during several seconds of starter cranking. Do NOT wait more than a minute after stall before testing, or whatever is causing the issue may cool and allow NORMAL restart.

The reason for the testing is that we don't know, without data, whether the Pump is failing, the EKP is failing, the DME control signal is failing, or if there is a wiring or connector fault somewhere between the DME/ EKP/ Fuel Pump.

Make sure you scan for fault codes in ALL Modules, Particularly the EKP & the DME.

George

Last edited by gbalthrop; 09-24-2019 at 01:37 PM.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:44 PM
marvinstockman marvinstockman is offline
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See if car will start and run for a few seconds on starter fluid or carb cleaner.
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Old 09-24-2019, 06:47 PM
marvinstockman marvinstockman is offline
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You can also go under car and bang on fuel tank with a rubber mallet.

Also, turn off radio and fans, and with key in ignition position, you should hear the fuel tank run for a few seconds and stop. This is normally done to prime the system before the starter cranks.
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:31 AM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Sure sounds like the Fuel Pump (OR the EKP controlling/powering the Pump, just shuts down after it runs for a certain time/ attains a certain temperature. Do you have N51 or N52 (simpler tank setup)? If N51, the issue MAY be covered under extended N51 SULEV warranty. If you have a scan tool that will do Activation of the Fuel Pump, either when connected to DME, or when connected to EKP Fuel Pump Module, check to see if you have "Pump Speed Deviation" or difference between requested speed and Actual Speed, both after cold start, and also after idle for 5 to 10 minutes.

If you have a Scan Tool or Software/Laptop (such as INPA/ISTA) that will allow (1) reading of Parameters of Pump Speed, Temp, Voltage, and also (2) Activate Pump, over-riding DME/EKP Control of Pump (INPA allows connection to EITHER Module to do that), best way I know to get a definitive diagnosis is to do a "dry run" when system operating properly so you know what Live Date SHOULD look like (just standing at idle, NOT driving), and also monitor data when you turn ignition off, wait a few seconds, and then turn ignition back on, and continue monitoring during starter cranking.

Then, knowing what the Parameters are SUPPOSED to look like, find a safe road and time to drive until it stalls, and then view same screen/Parameters with ignition ON, without trying to start, and during several seconds of starter cranking. Do NOT wait more than a minute after stall before testing, or whatever is causing the issue may cool and allow NORMAL restart.

The reason for the testing is that we don't know, without data, whether the Pump is failing, the EKP is failing, the DME control signal is failing, or if there is a wiring or connector fault somewhere between the DME/ EKP/ Fuel Pump.

Make sure you scan for fault codes in ALL Modules, Particularly the EKP & the DME.

George
Thank you, that is probably the most helpful answer I have received.
It is an N52.
I believe that its a middle of the road Autel scanner. Not BMW specific, it was purchased to read a lot of the body module codes on GMs, but still goes more in depth than a pocket scanner and will pull up BMW specific codes on the modules that it does read.
I do not believe it maps or reads any of the data that you mentioned other than fuel pump duty and that is probably not going to help me to determine if its the EKP or the pump itself.

Where is the EKP located?
Can you point me in the right direction of a scanner or system that will read the data I need?
I have done a bit of research on the ISTA but I am a little confused on how it operates.

I have worked on a ton of domestics but I have not had a ton of experience with BMW, so this is a bit of a learning curve for me. If you think I need to just bite the bullet and take it in I will do so.

Thanks again.

Last edited by three28eye; 09-25-2019 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 09-25-2019, 12:00 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
...I believe that its a middle of the road Autel scanner. Not BMW specific, it was purchased to read a lot of the body module codes on GMs, but still goes more in depth than a pocket scanner and will pull up BMW specific codes on the modules that it does read. [First step is to identify WHAT DME & EKP PARAMETERS or Live Data it can read, as well as what Modules it can read Fault Codes in -- obviously it can read Fault codes in DME -- CAN it read fault codes in EKP (Fuel Pump Module)?]
I do not believe it maps or reads any of the data that you mentioned other than fuel pump duty and that is probably not going to help me to determine if its the EKP or the pump itself. [That depends upon what Parameters it "displays" or "maps", and what module or sensor is the source of the signals displayed or mapped. When you say Fuel Pump Duty", that suggests a signal either from the DME to the EKP, or from the EKP to the Pump, to Activate the Pump. It would be helpful to know WHICH. Perhaps you can determine that? With INPA, I can produce an Activation signal either from the DME to the EKP, or from the EKP to the Fuel Pump. If your Autel can do at least ONE of those, that MAY be enough to at least make an educated guess.]
Where is the EKP located? [Behind the rear seat squab/back on the right/ US-passenger side] Can you point me in the right direction of a scanner or system that will read the data I need? [I have an Autel 319 (their cheapest model) which will only read P-codes in the Engine Module, which I use for that purpose on NON-BMW vehicles to help friends. I have INPA which can read fault codes, Parameters, and do Activations in ALL Modules. (1) First question is: WHAT parameters can your Autel display or log; (2) Second question is: Do you have a Windows 10 Laptop, or if not, what Android, etc. device do you have that can perhaps run a BMW-specific app or diagnostic program. If you have a laptop, I can help you with INPA, and THAT would be best for future diagnostic use. To quickly & correctly solve your current issue, it may be best to first determine ALL your Autel can do.]
I have done a bit of research on the ISTA but I am a little confused on how it operates...
I have not yet installed ISTA, but I HAVE used INPA which is in BMW Standard Tools free download, using $45 K+DCAN cable from BimmerGeeks to connect Windows 10 Laptop USB port to vehicle OBD II Socket. I believe you have to install BMW Standard Tools BEFORE you install ISTA, and since ISTA is a larger download, you might consider taking an hour or two to see what INPA can do FIRST before you download & install INPA.

From everything I have seen, INPA can do anything ISTA can do, IF you have the understanding of how the various system Inputs & Outputs work, which can be obtained from TIS circuit diagrams. ISTA appears to be more of a Flow Chart or learning aid (also ALL in English while INPA has a lot of German technical terms requiring Google Translate). So if you just want DATA, and understand the system, INPA may be as good or Better than ISTA for diagnostic purposes IF you have an "engineering" approach and desire to understand the automotive system involved.

Here are some examples of how TIS circuit diagrams appear, and what can be learned from each.

TIS EKP Circuit Diagram, 2011 328xi N52:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...module/vFnKcli
NOTE that the EKP is connected to, and controlled by, the DME via the PT CAN Bus (PT_CAN_H & PT_CAN_L). Here is the TIS circuit diagram showing "Module 1" or Connector X60001 of the DME, where the PT Can Bus connects to the DME:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/i6jSpwF

Referring back to the first EKP circuit, NOTE also that the EKP is powered by fuse F70 (on 2008 & later E9x vehicles) which is "switched" by Terminal 30G, which is controlled by the Relay "IO1068" shown in this TIS "Installation Location":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...lim/1VnYuo3ZrW
That Relay could shut down after X minutes of operation, just as much as the Fuel Pump itself could shut down due to heat after X minutes of operation, so if we reliably have NO CODES, then the Relay is perhaps more likely the cause. We have to rely upon Parameters or Live Data, or LOGS of that data, rather than Fault Codes, if there ARE no fault codes saved in DME Memory. So can you log BOTH Terminal 30G Voltage, AND Fuel Pump Activation by the DME?

Bentley states at Section 160-2, page 327 of pdf:
"Fuel pump self-diagnostics are built into the DME. A failure in the
fuel pump circuit will set a fault code."
There are 11 different fault codes, related to "Fuel Pump" faults, in the Bentley Fault Codes List which are P-codes that the Autel Scan Tool should be able to read if saved in DME memory. Those include such things as Speed Deviation Faults (Speed too High or too Low), Pump OVER-Temperature Conditions, Pump emergency shut-down, etc. Do I understand correctly that there are NO Fault codes, Fuel Pump-related or otherwise, read by your Autel Scan Tool as saved in the DME? If so, Heat-related Fuel Pump Fault may NOT be the cause of your 'time-of-operation-related shutdown."

Figuring out how to monitor & diagnose your shutdown is essential before we can make a definitive diagnosis. My SWAG is still that the Fuel Pump is shutting down after a certain period of operation. BUT is it shutting down due to internal heat or other pump mechanical issue, or is it not operating due to disruption in power supply due to 30G relay failure, or other power supply disruption?

Can your Autel Scan tool Monitor or Log Terminal 30G Voltage or Voltage supply to Fuel Pump? Are there other things inside the vehicle which quit working when the engine "stalls" at are also powered by Terminal 30G?

Very interesting case. There's a relatively simple explanation, but devising a proper test with whats available to you at the moment, or identifying what new diagnostic tool should be added to your toolkit & how to use it is NOT an easy answer.

Thoughts or new info?
George

Last edited by gbalthrop; 09-25-2019 at 01:24 PM.
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Old 09-25-2019, 03:31 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
I have not yet installed ISTA, but I HAVE used INPA which is in BMW Standard Tools free download, using $45 K+DCAN cable from BimmerGeeks to connect Windows 10 Laptop USB port to vehicle OBD II Socket. I believe you have to install BMW Standard Tools BEFORE you install ISTA, and since ISTA is a larger download, you might consider taking an hour or two to see what INPA can do FIRST before you download & install INPA.

From everything I have seen, INPA can do anything ISTA can do, IF you have the understanding of how the various system Inputs & Outputs work, which can be obtained from TIS circuit diagrams. ISTA appears to be more of a Flow Chart or learning aid (also ALL in English while INPA has a lot of German technical terms requiring Google Translate). So if you just want DATA, and understand the system, INPA may be as good or Better than ISTA for diagnostic purposes IF you have an "engineering" approach and desire to understand the automotive system involved.

Here are some examples of how TIS circuit diagrams appear, and what can be learned from each.

TIS EKP Circuit Diagram, 2011 328xi N52:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...module/vFnKcli
NOTE that the EKP is connected to, and controlled by, the DME via the PT CAN Bus (PT_CAN_H & PT_CAN_L). Here is the TIS circuit diagram showing "Module 1" or Connector X60001 of the DME, where the PT Can Bus connects to the DME:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/i6jSpwF

Referring back to the first EKP circuit, NOTE also that the EKP is powered by fuse F70 (on 2008 & later E9x vehicles) which is "switched" by Terminal 30G, which is controlled by the Relay "IO1068" shown in this TIS "Installation Location":
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...lim/1VnYuo3ZrW
That Relay could shut down after X minutes of operation, just as much as the Fuel Pump itself could shut down due to heat after X minutes of operation, so if we reliably have NO CODES, then the Relay is perhaps more likely the cause. We have to rely upon Parameters or Live Data, or LOGS of that data, rather than Fault Codes, if there ARE no fault codes saved in DME Memory. So can you log BOTH Terminal 30G Voltage, AND Fuel Pump Activation by the DME?

Bentley states at Section 160-2, page 327 of pdf:
"Fuel pump self-diagnostics are built into the DME. A failure in the
fuel pump circuit will set a fault code."
There are 11 different fault codes, related to "Fuel Pump" faults, in the Bentley Fault Codes List which are P-codes that the Autel Scan Tool should be able to read if saved in DME memory. Those include such things as Speed Deviation Faults (Speed too High or too Low), Pump OVER-Temperature Conditions, Pump emergency shut-down, etc. Do I understand correctly that there are NO Fault codes, Fuel Pump-related or otherwise, read by your Autel Scan Tool as saved in the DME? If so, Heat-related Fuel Pump Fault may NOT be the cause of your 'time-of-operation-related shutdown."

Figuring out how to monitor & diagnose your shutdown is essential before we can make a definitive diagnosis. My SWAG is still that the Fuel Pump is shutting down after a certain period of operation. BUT is it shutting down due to internal heat or other pump mechanical issue, or is it not operating due to disruption in power supply due to 30G relay failure, or other power supply disruption?

Can your Autel Scan tool Monitor or Log Terminal 30G Voltage or Voltage supply to Fuel Pump? Are there other things inside the vehicle which quit working when the engine "stalls" at are also powered by Terminal 30G?

Very interesting case. There's a relatively simple explanation, but devising a proper test with whats available to you at the moment, or identifying what new diagnostic tool should be added to your toolkit & how to use it is NOT an easy answer.

Thoughts or new info?
George
Okay so I just poked around some more. I do have an Autel 301 as well. I also have a Launch reader that does a bit more than the Autel that I was referring to that I have been using. It apparently does not read any fuel pump settings other than if the pump is on or not. It reads the DME from what I am gathering but I cannot see any fuel pump codes. I think this is a case where my scanner does not do enough. I ordered the cable to plug into my computer, I am not sure when it'll get here, but it is on order. I unfortunately moved about 2 weeks ago and do not know many people in the area yet so there is not necessarily anyone local that I can ask for help as far as a scanner goes.

However, to answer your question there are NO codes stored, pending, or old that are coming up in any of the car's systems (ABS, power steering, transmission, etc.).

I am leaning more and more to the fuel pump as well since over the last 6 months or so the car has felt a little "sluggish" under moderate acceleration and I didn't think much of it. It didn't sputter or die (until recently). I went out to my car and let it idle for about 45 minutes and blipped the throttle to see if I could get it to die towards the 30 minute mark and it did not act funny or even want to die.

You think I can rule out the relay? Is there a relay I can swap out and take it for a drive or should I just buy a new one and toss it in and see what happens? I am just going to be pretty much sitting on my hands until the cable comes.

Again, I really appreciate your help.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:52 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
...I do have an Autel 301 as well. I also have a Launch reader that does a bit more than the Autel that I was referring to that I have been using. It apparently does not read any fuel pump settings other than if the pump is on or not. It reads the DME from what I am gathering but I cannot see any fuel pump codes. [Do I understand correctly that NO Scan Tool you have connected to the OBD II Socket shows ANY Fault Code saved in the DME?] I think this is a case where my scanner does not do enough. I ordered the cable to plug into my computer...However, to answer your question there are NO codes stored, pending, or old that are coming up in any of the car's systems (ABS, power steering, transmission, etc.)...
I went out to my car and let it idle for about 45 minutes and blipped the throttle to see if I could get it to die towards the 30 minute mark and it did not act funny or even want to die. You think I can rule out the relay? Is there a relay I can swap out and take it for a drive or should I just buy a new one and toss it in and see what happens?
I was going to suggest letting it idle for ~ 20 minutes to see if it died, as if it were a component which quit functioning based upon time active (like the 30G Relay) I would think that engine speed or fuel pump speed would be irrelevant. If nothing quit in 30 minutes of idle, my theoretical analysis is that the relay is NOT a good bet. Your concept may differ. If one were to simply throw a part and keep the old one as a spare, for $20, it won't hurt your rotator cuff or wallet (BMW part# 61366901469):
https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/61366901469

If you have NO fault Codes saved in the DME as read by either the Autel or Launch, then there probably ARE NONE, but a local Advance Auto or Autozone might read something missed.

Problem is that with NO codes, and NO Live Data of Pump Setspeed, Actual Speed, Temp, Voltage or Amp draw (ALL of which are shown by INPA per the attached Screen with English Translation), we don't have anything but a SWAG or two that there is anything wrong with the pump. You're the one driving it, and risking it NOT starting the next time you wait ~ 5 minutes after shutdown, so I'm NOT going to push you one way or the other. A new fuel pump is in the $200 range, and even when you get the K+DCAN cable and run INPA/ISTA, you aren't likely to get any absolutely clear diagnostic evidence:
https://www.autohausaz.com/catalog/k...ve/fuel%20pump

ANYONE have an idea of something else that could be causing the shutdown, OTHER than the fuel pump? Worst thing a scientist/engineer can do is "fall in love" with his first idea, and quit looking for other/ better explanations.

One way to try to determine if it's the pump, doing it the Old-fashioned way:
1) Remove the Rear Seat squab to access the two wires: Red/White, and Brown, that run from Connector X3507 at the EKP Module down to the pump (see links to circuit, Installation Location, and Connector View below);
2) Attach a test connector that can safely be exposed pending need to quickly test voltage with DMM;
3) Drive until shutdown occurs; quickly measure voltage at newly installed test connector, with ignition still on;
4) Shut off ignition and wait 5 minutes; turn ignition ON and see if you now have voltage at test connector, and if engine fires.
5) If NO voltage in (3) but voltage in (4), then Pump is OK but an issue with EKP or wiring including possible issue with DME signal to EKP.
6) If 12V+ in BOTH (3) & (4), then bad pump or wiring between EKP & pump. Obviously you should see if you are able to determine for sure if Pump is running or NOT running by sound or other means, which you can use to test at side of highway (daunting conditions, but at least on passenger side).
7) You can always plumb in a mechanical pressure gauge to the Fuel Rail Schrader Valve per the attached Bentley page, 160-11, but you would have to do that at home, and be ready to quickly read pressure when engine dies. Hope the 2011 N52 still has Schrader Valve installed.

TIS Circuit, Installation Location & Connector View:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...module/vFnKcli
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/RNeLJOk
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...i-lim/CT7yAMoi

Stay Safe. I appreciate how frustrating driving a car you KNOW is going to shut down somewhere BEFORE you get where you're going can be.

George
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  #11  
Old 09-25-2019, 11:18 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Two quick checks to see if Terminal 30G is active and powering fuses F46 & F77:
1) F46 is powered ONLY when Terminal 30G is active, and in turn powers the Driver Seat Module.
2) F77 is powered only when Terminal 30G is active, and in turn powers the Glove Box & Trunk lights.

TIS circuits for F46 & F77, 2008 & Later E9x:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...6-fuse/iDTrujD
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...7-fuse/ildMSEE

So if the engine dies, but your seat still moves forward/back & glovebox light comes on when open glovebox, 30G Relay is still OK.

George
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Old 10-17-2019, 08:11 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Two quick checks to see if Terminal 30G is active and powering fuses F46 & F77:
1) F46 is powered ONLY when Terminal 30G is active, and in turn powers the Driver Seat Module.
2) F77 is powered only when Terminal 30G is active, and in turn powers the Glove Box & Trunk lights.

TIS circuits for F46 & F77, 2008 & Later E9x:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...6-fuse/iDTrujD
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...7-fuse/ildMSEE

So if the engine dies, but your seat still moves forward/back & glovebox light comes on when open glovebox, 30G Relay is still OK.

George
Sorry for the slow reply. Vacation, work and simply not driving the vehicle have prevented me from diagnosing further.

A few developments:
It is NOT the fuel pump. I thought I had narrowed it down to the pump since it was getting power, sputtering and then dying after a certain amount of time. A new pump did not solve the issue. I couldn't get it to die when at idle, however it has done it twice now after the pump change.

I have an N51 not N52. I'm not sure why I had it in my head that I had a 52.
I live in Indiana and as far as I know the extended SULEV warranty does not hold much weight here, unless you can point me in the direction of some literature that says differently.

I read that the line to the fuel regulator comes off, however in my tank it looks attached and does not move when I mess with it.

As stated my glove box lights come on when the stalling occurs so I believe the rules out my relay.

I cannot get ISTA to work. I'm going to try to uninstall and re install this weekend.

Last edited by three28eye; 10-17-2019 at 08:20 PM.
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  #13  
Old 10-18-2019, 07:00 AM
marvinstockman marvinstockman is offline
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Once more with feeling, when it won't run, see if it will run on starter fluid or carb cleaner.
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  #14  
Old 10-18-2019, 12:58 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
...It is NOT the fuel pump. I thought I had narrowed it down to the pump since it was getting power, sputtering and then dying after a certain amount of time. A new pump did not solve the issue. I couldn't get it to die when at idle, however it has done it twice now after the pump change. I have an N51 not N52. I'm not sure why I had it in my head that I had a 52.As stated my glove box lights come on when the stalling occurs so I believe the rules out my relay...I cannot get ISTA to work. I'm going to try to uninstall and re install this weekend.
So I understand that with NEW fuel pump, the SAME symptoms occur: (1) engine stalling after ~ 15 minutes normal driving, but NOT 30 minutes of idling, and (2) able to restart after ignition off for ~ 5 minutes or less & operate normally again for ~ 15 minutes(?)

There are possible issues with the EKP Fuel Pump Control Module, the wiring/connectors TO that module (including control signal by DME via BUS), or the wiring/connector between the EKP and Fuel Pump. Of course it is POSSIBLE that something OTHER than fuel pump shutdown due to lack of power via the EKP is causing engine stalling. So in order to ensure we are "chasing the correct rabbit" I would suggest devising SOME method of quickly (in 2 minutes or less since issue clears in 3-5 minutes of "Ignition Off") checking pump operation/ Power Supply, whether audibly, via INPA/ISTA software, or by Voltage reading with DME as described in Post #10 above.

You now indicate that you have the N51 engine, so here is the TIS circuit diagram for YOUR fuel pump, the "Installation Location" for the EKP (A13663), and the "Connector View" of the Connector at the EKP (X3507) which supplies power & Ground to the Fuel Pump via the Red/White wire (Pin#4) and Brown wire (Pin#2), respectively:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uL5g1L7
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e90-328i-lim/RNeLJOk
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...i-lim/CT7yAMoi

To this point, there has been NO indication that you have a Scan Tool or Software that can connect to the EKP Module and either (1) Read Fault Codes in the EKP Memory, (2) Read Pump parameters such as RPM or Voltage, or (3) Activate Pump, BOTH (a) via connection to DME, AND (b) via connection to EKP. That last point is of concern to eliminate the POSSIBILITY of a fault in the PT CAN Bus connection between the DME & EKP. If you could get either INPA (BMW Standard Tools) or ISTA (Rheingold) which is installed AFTER BMW Standard Tools, running to at least be able to read EKP Fault Codes, THAT would be helpful.

Even if you have to go to an Indy shop with either INPA or ISTA to check for fault codes saved in EKP, that would probably be money well-spent. INPA will give you Fault Code Number of ANY Fault Code in ANY of the ~20 modules of your vehicle, including the EKP, in 5 minutes or less. If you have Windows 10 Laptop, K+DCAN Cable, and have downloaded BMW Standard Tools, I can help you Connect, Select "Functional Jobs" and get that Readout of Fault Memory (Fehlerspeicher Lesen) in ALL Modules.

IF "Functional Jobs" shows a Fault saved in EKP, I can then show you how to connect to the EKP Module and get Definition of any Fault Code saved there; how to get Freeze Frame Data & Fault Details; and how to read Fault Memory History (HistorySpeicher). INPA allows you to see ANY fault that has ever been saved in EKP Memory since the car was new, UNLESS someone has CLEARED HistorySpeicher (as opposed to Fehlerspeicher). So in your case, if there is ANY issue with the Fuel Pump or EKP, and since you have NOT cleared ANY part of EKP memory since current issues began, the evidence is still in EKP Memory (if there ever WAS any, and my SWAG is there IS such evidence).

I CAN'T help with ISTA, since I have NOT YET installed or used that, but if you have issues with that installation, or with Connecting to your vehicle after installation of the program, perhaps others here can help.

George
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  #15  
Old 10-19-2019, 05:29 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Mein Auto:
Thanks for the replies.

Yes. New fuel pump and same symptoms.
I found that if I open and close the drivers door a few times it almost "resets" the car.
I noticed that if I open the door or get close to the car with my key the fuel pump primes. Immediately after stalling this does not occur.

I finally got inpa working.

I have a 6292 and a 6293 under the EKP memory which by a google search is a high and low voltage to the EKP.
Most searches indicate that the EKP is shot. Should I clear the codes and see if any of them come back?

No fault codes in the MRS, DME, DDE, VGSC or DSC.

I do have 2 other codes in the JBBF: A6E4 and A6E5, which seem to be fuel level sensor issues which I have never had an issue with or any warning lights about.

I do have a few other stores codes for burned out bulbs which I have replaced in the past. This makes me wonder, how long does the computer store codes? Indefinitely until they are cleared?


Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
...It is NOT the fuel pump. I thought I had narrowed it down to the pump since it was getting power, sputtering and then dying after a certain amount of time. A new pump did not solve the issue. I couldn't get it to die when at idle, however it has done it twice now after the pump change. I have an N51 not N52. I'm not sure why I had it in my head that I had a 52.As stated my glove box lights come on when the stalling occurs so I believe the rules out my relay...I cannot get ISTA to work. I'm going to try to uninstall and re install this weekend.
So I understand that with NEW fuel pump, the SAME symptoms occur: (1) engine stalling after ~ 15 minutes normal driving, but NOT 30 minutes of idling, and (2) able to restart after ignition off for ~ 5 minutes or less & operate normally again for ~ 15 minutes(?)

There are possible issues with the EKP Fuel Pump Control Module, the wiring/connectors TO that module (including control signal by DME via BUS), or the wiring/connector between the EKP and Fuel Pump. Of course it is POSSIBLE that something OTHER than fuel pump shutdown due to lack of power via the EKP is causing engine stalling. So in order to ensure we are "chasing the correct rabbit" I would suggest devising SOME method of quickly (in 2 minutes or less since issue clears in 3-5 minutes of "Ignition Off") checking pump operation/ Power Supply, whether audibly, via INPA/ISTA software, or by Voltage reading with DME as described in Post #10 above.

You now indicate that you have the N51 engine, so here is the TIS circuit diagram for YOUR fuel pump, the "Installation Location" for the EKP (A13663), and the "Connector View" of the Connector at the EKP (X3507) which supplies power & Ground to the Fuel Pump via the Red/White wire (Pin#4) and Brown wire (Pin#2), respectively:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uL5g1L7
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e90-328i-lim/RNeLJOk
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...i-lim/CT7yAMoi

To this point, there has been NO indication that you have a Scan Tool or Software that can connect to the EKP Module and either (1) Read Fault Codes in the EKP Memory, (2) Read Pump parameters such as RPM or Voltage, or (3) Activate Pump, BOTH (a) via connection to DME, AND (b) via connection to EKP. That last point is of concern to eliminate the POSSIBILITY of a fault in the PT CAN Bus connection between the DME & EKP. If you could get either INPA (BMW Standard Tools) or ISTA (Rheingold) which is installed AFTER BMW Standard Tools, running to at least be able to read EKP Fault Codes, THAT would be helpful.

Even if you have to go to an Indy shop with either INPA or ISTA to check for fault codes saved in EKP, that would probably be money well-spent. INPA will give you Fault Code Number of ANY Fault Code in ANY of the ~20 modules of your vehicle, including the EKP, in 5 minutes or less. If you have Windows 10 Laptop, K+DCAN Cable, and have downloaded BMW Standard Tools, I can help you Connect, Select "Functional Jobs" and get that Readout of Fault Memory (Fehlerspeicher Lesen) in ALL Modules.

IF "Functional Jobs" shows a Fault saved in EKP, I can then show you how to connect to the EKP Module and get Definition of any Fault Code saved there; how to get Freeze Frame Data & Fault Details; and how to read Fault Memory History (HistorySpeicher). INPA allows you to see ANY fault that has ever been saved in EKP Memory since the car was new, UNLESS someone has CLEARED HistorySpeicher (as opposed to Fehlerspeicher). So in your case, if there is ANY issue with the Fuel Pump or EKP, and since you have NOT cleared ANY part of EKP memory since current issues began, the evidence is still in EKP Memory (if there ever WAS any, and my SWAG is there IS such evidence).

I CAN'T help with ISTA, since I have NOT YET installed or used that, but if you have issues with that installation, or with Connecting to your vehicle after installation of the program, perhaps others here can help.

George
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  #16  
Old 10-19-2019, 11:51 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
...I noticed that if I open the door or get close to the car with my key [IF you have CA/Convenient Access] the fuel pump primes. [That is NORMAL Wakeup by CAS Module when unlocking] Immediately after stalling this does not occur. [Another indication stall is due to Fuel Pump CEASING running, and since you have NEW Fuel Pump, we need to investigate power supply to Pump, including EKP Module]. I finally got inpa working. []
I have a 6292 and a 6293 under the EKP memory which by a google search is a high and low voltage to the EKP. [INPA provides MORE than just a code number. I presume you simply used "Functional Jobs" to get codes in ALL Modules? That is the correct Starting Point, but see below for getting MORE.] Most searches indicate that the EKP is shot. Should I clear the codes and see if any of them come back? [NOT YET!! Don't Destroy Evidence (Felony ;-) Get/ Save/ Post the other Info BEFORE clearing]...I do have 2 other codes in the JBBF: A6E4 and A6E5, which seem to be fuel level sensor issues which I have never had an issue with or any warning lights about...
You need to Connect (electronically) to the EKP Module to get (1) Fault Code Definitions, (2) Fault Details, (3) Freeze Frame Data, AND (4) Fault Memory History (even if "Fehlerspeicher or regular Fault Memory has been cleared). I will show you HOW to do that in a later paragraph, but first, take a moment to read the attached pdf, "INPA Tutorial Quickstart".

You will save yourself and other Forum Members considerable time by learning how to SAVE Screenprints from INPA as jpg image files you can attach to posts here, so we can see your INPA screens just as you do. Saving all the screens in appropriate folders (such as by Module) on YOUR computer gives you a history of issues you addressed, and allows you to clear codes (which clears FF Data & Details -- EXCEPT for Historyspeicher) to see if they return.

ALSO, saving the "Functional Jobs" Identification (F2) Screen gives you a record of ALL the ~ 20 Modules in your vehicle, and the SGBD or Variant Code for each (Fourth Column on Screen). I attach my "F2 Identification Screen" which shows SGBD for my variant of EKP as "EKPM60_3", and since I don't know your Variant, the Code Definitions below are for EKPM60_3. A particular Fault Code can mean one thing for an EKP with one SGBD, and something else for a variant with different SGBD. But INPA gives you the proper definition for YOUR Module without having to look it up online or in some other reference, so here's how to get MORE INFO.

Connect to EKP Module, Ignition ON, Engine OFF:
1) At "Script Selection" box which appears after you select "E90", scroll down to "Engine" in Left Listbox, Press Tab to navigate to Right Listbox, scroll down to "Fuel Pump EKP" at bottom of box & press Enter; See 2nd attachment, "3 Engine, MSV80, EKP" for how that looks on MY Screen. NOTE: if you wanted to connect to your DME, you would select "MSV80" (your DME SGBD/Variant); You'll probably want to do that some day.
IGNORE the fact that E90 is < F6 > on Start Screen on my OLD INPA version, yours is different.
2) The EKP Main Menu appears, and the screen looks like the next attachment; Don't sweat if some/most of it is in German as the attachment is; Press < F4 > Fehlerspeicher (Fault Memory) and you get next Screen/Attachment:
3) Fehlerspeicher Menu or Fault Memory Menu appears; Lesen is READ or view, Löschen is CLEAR, so do NOT clear anything for now
4) Experiment to see what data you get when selecting: < F1 > Read Fehlerspeicher/Fault Memory, F3 Read Infospeicher/Information Memory & F5 Read Historienspeicher/ Memory History. I have never had any Fuel Pump Faults, so don't know what Details each reports.
5) I would recommend simply Saving ScreenPrints of ALL pages/screens which appear in any of those three Memory Screens; SaveAs jpg format in Paint or other Photo Editor Application and post here so we can all learn something.
6) Don't be afraid of any German in the Definition or Details, as Google Translate is your friend, and once you have translated a few screens you find that much of it is repetitive, such as whether the fault is currently present, whether it would cause MIL to light, mileage/km at which fault was saved, etc.
https://translate.google.com/#view=h...te&sl=de&tl=en

When you have saved that info & posted here, I will translate & evaluate the code definitions, and describe how to use F6 Activations (Steuern) to do further testing as needed. A translated Activation Screen is attached so you can see what types of Live Data can be viewed.

BTW, the two Fuel Pump Codes you reported are Amperage/Current High and Voltage Low. Need to know the mileage/km at which EACH of those codes was saved (whether same or different times, etc.). High Amp Draw suggests an issue with the Motor (or a partial short in wiring or EKP), some restriction to rotation, etc., but we need ALL the Fault Details & FF Data to properly diagnose.

Think of this as an interesting challenge and an opportunity to learn more about INPA.

George
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  #17  
Old 10-20-2019, 01:34 AM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Location: Fairfax County, Virginia
 
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Mein Auto: 2007 328xi E91
Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
...I have a 6292 and a 6293 under the EKP memory which by a google search is a high and low voltage to the EKP. [Actually, that's Control Voltage too Low (6292) and Control CURRENT/AMPS too HIGH (6293)]
Most searches indicate that the EKP is shot. [perhaps an intermittent "short" in the Connector at the Fuel Tank, X13845? See Below]...I do have 2 other codes in the JBBF: A6E4 and A6E5, which seem to be fuel level sensor issues which I have never had an issue with or any warning lights about. [That could be a LARGE Clue when you look at the TIS links below] ...how long does the computer store codes? Indefinitely until they are cleared?
I don't have an N51 & have NEVER worked on one, but your Connector, X13845 over the fuel pump on the Right side of the tank is different from the Connector on the N52-engined vehicles. The ONLY thing that the Left & Right Fuel Level Sensors (one in each side of tank) have in common with the Fuel Pump electrically is that Power/Signal/Ground for each pass through that Connector X13845. There are SIX (6) wires that pass through Connector X13845: Pump power & Ground through pins #6 & #5; Right Tank Level Sensor (TANKREchts) (+) & (-) through pins #4 & #3; and Left Tank Level Sensor (TANKLInks) (+) & (-) through pins #2 & #1. In German, "Rechts" is Right & "Links" is Left, hence the abbreviations beside each wire in the Sensor circuit.

Here are the TIS circuit diagrams for (1) the Warning & Indicator Lights, showing the Tank Level Sensor connections to the JBBF/JBE (A4010a); (2) the Fuel Pump circuit to the EKP (via X13845); (3) Installation Location for Connector X13845; and (4) Connector View for Connector X13845:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...lights/uRyQoQz
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uL5g1L7
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/RabKZhX
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...i-lim/DigJtr4P THIS ONE!

As stated, the Tank Sensor wires do NOT go to the EKP, and are SUPPOSED to be electrically separate from the Fuel Pump & EKP Module. They just exit the Fuel Tank via the same 6-pin connector used by the two pump wires. SOOOO, if you find that the two JBBF codes were set at the same mileage as one or both of the Pump codes, that suggests you have something very weird happening in the tank connector X13845 after the car has been driven at highway speed/ RPM/ Load/ Pump RPM and heat buildup, where electrically-developed heat is causing a short of some type.

I would suggest IMMEDIATELY lifting the rear seat cushion and carefully inspecting that connector for ANY sign of heat or short, discoloration, melting, wiring or pin damage or discoloration, etc. I seem to recall seeing one or two posts suggesting some type of problem in that connector on N51 vehicles in the past 2.5 years of forum membership, but since I don't have an N51, I did NOT pay close attention to the DETAILS. A call to a Dealer with Techs familiar with N51 peculiarities (maybe CA dealer ;-) might yield some interesting information.

ANYONE out there with N51 "recall" anything about reported issues with the round tank connector shown in the last link (I'll identify it in MAGA RED so you can quickly identify it ;-)

Please let us know what you find,
George
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  #18  
Old 10-20-2019, 10:58 AM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
I don't have an N51 & have NEVER worked on one, but your Connector, X13845 over the fuel pump on the Right side of the tank is different from the Connector on the N52-engined vehicles. The ONLY thing that the Left & Right Fuel Level Sensors (one in each side of tank) have in common with the Fuel Pump electrically is that Power/Signal/Ground for each pass through that Connector X13845. There are SIX (6) wires that pass through Connector X13845: Pump power & Ground through pins #6 & #5; Right Tank Level Sensor (TANKREchts) (+) & (-) through pins #4 & #3; and Left Tank Level Sensor (TANKLInks) (+) & (-) through pins #2 & #1. In German, "Rechts" is Right & "Links" is Left, hence the abbreviations beside each wire in the Sensor circuit.

Here are the TIS circuit diagrams for (1) the Warning & Indicator Lights, showing the Tank Level Sensor connections to the JBBF/JBE (A4010a); (2) the Fuel Pump circuit to the EKP (via X13845); (3) Installation Location for Connector X13845; and (4) Connector View for Connector X13845:
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...lights/uRyQoQz
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...system/uL5g1L7
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...xi-lim/RabKZhX
https://www.newtis.info/tisv2/a/en/e...i-lim/DigJtr4P THIS ONE!

As stated, the Tank Sensor wires do NOT go to the EKP, and are SUPPOSED to be electrically separate from the Fuel Pump & EKP Module. They just exit the Fuel Tank via the same 6-pin connector used by the two pump wires. SOOOO, if you find that the two JBBF codes were set at the same mileage as one or both of the Pump codes, that suggests you have something very weird happening in the tank connector X13845 after the car has been driven at highway speed/ RPM/ Load/ Pump RPM and heat buildup, where electrically-developed heat is causing a short of some type.

I would suggest IMMEDIATELY lifting the rear seat cushion and carefully inspecting that connector for ANY sign of heat or short, discoloration, melting, wiring or pin damage or discoloration, etc. I seem to recall seeing one or two posts suggesting some type of problem in that connector on N51 vehicles in the past 2.5 years of forum membership, but since I don't have an N51, I did NOT pay close attention to the DETAILS. A call to a Dealer with Techs familiar with N51 peculiarities (maybe CA dealer ;-) might yield some interesting information.

ANYONE out there with N51 "recall" anything about reported issues with the round tank connector shown in the last link (I'll identify it in MAGA RED so you can quickly identify it ;-)

Please let us know what you find,
George
Examined all exposed wiring and connectors, even the one going to the pump and didn't find any visible abnormalities.

I am able to get into the DME, and I can trigger the pump to kick on through the DME with the engine off and the car running. There are no faults in the DME. I have no cleared any data or codes at all.

However, when I try to get into the EKP (doesn't matter if the car is running or off) I get this error message, which I am attaching. It seems I can get into all other areas of my car, DME, Trans, etc except for the EKP.

The fuel pump is running at about 36.3% activation at idle, pretty constant. When the car starts to die the activation jumps up to try to compensate, and then it dies and activation is at 0. If I immediately try to activate the pump through the DME, it says there is activation, but I do not hear the pump prime or turn on. Trying to restart the car after dying immediately makes the activation jump up to about 47 percent.


EDIT: Car stalled, fuel pump was not kicking on. I was playing around in INPA, I put the ECU to sleep, just for the heck of it and opened the door and immediately heard the fuel pump prime and the car started back up. I do not know if this is relevant info.
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  #19  
Old 10-20-2019, 11:10 AM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Mein Auto:
It looks like I am getting an IFH0010 error when I try to get into some of the body modules like the TPMS. Data transmission to control unit disturbed. I did a quick google search and it says my latency should be set on 1 and that should solve that issue, which it is, and has been since the program was installed. Any thoughts on that?
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  #20  
Old 10-20-2019, 11:28 AM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Here are the DME errors that are stored.
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  #21  
Old 10-20-2019, 07:36 PM
gbalthrop gbalthrop is online now
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Mein Auto: 2007 328xi E91
Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
Examined all exposed wiring and connectors, even the one going to the pump and didn't find any visible abnormalities. [If it is still stalling after 15 minutes of highway speed use, that is PROBABLY NOT a wiring fault, but it is either a fault in the Pump (now replaced), the EKP Module, or MOST likely (due to Fuel Level Sensor Faults as well), a fault in the ROUND 6-pin Connector X13845]

I am able to get into the DME, and I can trigger the pump to kick on through the DME with the engine off and the car running. [You mean Ignition ON, Engine OFF I presume?] There are no faults in the DME. I have no cleared any data or codes at all.

However, when I try to get into the EKP (doesn't matter if the car is running or off) I get this error message, which I am attaching. It seems I can get into all other areas of my car, DME, Trans, etc except for the EKP. [That error message indicates that your car has EKP Module with SGBD: "EKP360" which it says it finds, but apparently your INPA installation is NOT properly setup to access that Variant "EKP360", either due to lack of proper "Daten", or lack of proper setup of the Listbox list of choices for EKP Fuel Pump. You might attach a screenprint showing the choices available in Right-hand listbox when "Engine" is selected in Left Listbox.]

The fuel pump is running at about 36.3% activation at idle, pretty constant. When the car starts to die the activation jumps up to try to compensate, and then it dies and activation is at 0. If I immediately try to activate the pump through the DME, it says there is activation, but I do not hear the pump prime or turn on. Trying to restart the car after dying immediately makes the activation jump up to about 47 percent. [Remember that you are connected to the DME Module which is sending a speed signal to the EKP Module. The "%" signal you are reading is probably the DME signal to the EKP, and NOT actual Fuel Pump Speed (the EKP shows that in RPM in the range of 5,000 RPM at idle when you are connected to the EKP), so apparently the DME is providing a proper speed signal to the EKP, and there is either an issue in the EKP, the CONNECTOR X13845 (MOST likely), or the New Pump (unlikely).]
EDIT: Car stalled, fuel pump was not kicking on. I was playing around in INPA, I put the ECU to sleep, just for the heck of it and opened the door and immediately heard the fuel pump prime and the car started back up. I do not know if this is relevant info. [I don't know about you, but when I "play around in INPA", 5 minute passes rather quickly. So how much time elapsed between the stall and start up? Perhaps putting DME to Sleep was irrelevant, and it's just the old 3 to 5 minutes ignition off scenario?]
Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
It looks like I am getting an IFH0010 error when I try to get into some of the body modules like the TPMS. Data transmission to control unit disturbed. I did a quick google search and it says my latency should be set on 1 and that should solve that issue, which it is, and has been since the program was installed. Any thoughts on that? [See first section of pdf ""INPA Tutorial Quickstart" which I said I attached to Post #16, but mistakenly OMITTED. It IS attached NOW. As described in detail in that Tutorial, you need to go to Control Panel, Device Manager, with Cable connected to Computer (NOT vehicle), and set COM Port 1, Latency 1. Any time there is a problem connecting or keeping the connection "Running", recheck that setting. I have found that Windows "UPDATES" has a nasty habit of resetting some of the custom settings such as that.]
Quote:
Originally Posted by three28eye View Post
Here are the DME errors that are stored.
We've GOT to find a way to get you connected to the EKP Module, as that should be "Key" to diagnosing the issue properly (other than checking with your local BMW Dealer about known issues with Tank Connector X13845). But here are translations & interpretations of what you have posted thus far, and several items needed from you to get you connected to the EKP. I note that you show 10 faults in the Memory History, and the 2nd Page has a double arrow, which means there was more (MORE RECENT) data beyond that screen. It appears to be just a line or two, including mileage at which Fault #10 was saved, but pleast check the following things and let us know:

1) IF there are faults 11 and beyond in Memory History, please "PageDown" in the program to get that data, and attach a screenprint here. I presume that the last fault is #10, and the nomenclature means 10 of (10), so there is NOTHING but mileage data for fault #10 that is NOT shown on your screenprint?
1A) It would NOT hurt to READ the other two DME Memory caches: Fault Memory (F1?) and InfoMemory (F3?) just to learn what is saved there.
2) WHAT is your current odometer reading? The most recent Fault Code saved that you have provided is (10) "Crankshaft - Intake Camshaft Synchronization". We can't see the mileage/km at which that instance of the fault was saved, but the previous fault of same number was last saved at 211912 km or 131,676 miles on the odometer. There are likely Fuel Pump Faults at later mileage than Fault #8 @ 211,864 km or 131,646 miles, particularly if you have run the engine until stall since you saved the two screens posted.

Other observations at the moment:
a) ALL the faults listed in Historyspeicher/HistoryMemory have the "Error Status": Fehler Momentan NICHT/NOT Vorhanden = fault NOT currently present. So ALL faults in History are Intermittent or corrected.
b) There has been a consistently recurring fault 2AAE related to the Fuel Pump, and that Fault Definition is "Drehzahl zu hoch" = Rotation Speed/RPM too HIGH.

That last definition, taken together with the 6292 Code, indicating Pump Current too HIGH, suggests that SOMETHING is actually causing the pump to run FASTER than directed by the DME, or drawing more current than should be required, or the DME and/or EKP are receiving Inputs that indicate that. A short in X13845 COULD cause that.

I can't help but think that we could learn MORE if you could connect to the EKP. If you will attach a screenprint of what you see in the Right Listbox when you select "Engine" in the left listbox, I or others can suggest a line of code you can add to the file "E90.ENG", which is located in the Folder Path: C:\EC-APPS\INPA\CFGDAT

It would appear that adding ONE line of text (using Notepad), BELOW your current Text line that contains "Fuel Pump EKP" would allow you to connect to your fuel pump module variant, "EKP360." If you provide the two screens requested here, I'll provide the suggest line of text & indicate WHERE/HOW to add it.

JUST to make SURE that we're doing the correct thing, please do a screenprint of Functional Jobs, F2 Identification that shows SGBD for ADR 17 EKP (should be "EKP360" according to your error message when trying to connect). So what I'm asking for here is your two equivalent screens to the first two screens I attached to Post #16 above.

George
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File Type: pdf INPA Tutorial Quickstart.pdf (682.2 KB, 6 views)
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  #22  
Old 10-21-2019, 06:33 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbalthrop View Post
We've GOT to find a way to get you connected to the EKP Module, as that should be "Key" to diagnosing the issue properly (other than checking with your local BMW Dealer about known issues with Tank Connector X13845). But here are translations & interpretations of what you have posted thus far, and several items needed from you to get you connected to the EKP. I note that you show 10 faults in the Memory History, and the 2nd Page has a double arrow, which means there was more (MORE RECENT) data beyond that screen. It appears to be just a line or two, including mileage at which Fault #10 was saved, but pleast check the following things and let us know:

1) IF there are faults 11 and beyond in Memory History, please "PageDown" in the program to get that data, and attach a screenprint here. I presume that the last fault is #10, and the nomenclature means 10 of (10), so there is NOTHING but mileage data for fault #10 that is NOT shown on your screenprint?
1A) It would NOT hurt to READ the other two DME Memory caches: Fault Memory (F1?) and InfoMemory (F3?) just to learn what is saved there.
2) WHAT is your current odometer reading? The most recent Fault Code saved that you have provided is (10) "Crankshaft - Intake Camshaft Synchronization". We can't see the mileage/km at which that instance of the fault was saved, but the previous fault of same number was last saved at 211912 km or 131,676 miles on the odometer. There are likely Fuel Pump Faults at later mileage than Fault #8 @ 211,864 km or 131,646 miles, particularly if you have run the engine until stall since you saved the two screens posted.

Other observations at the moment:
a) ALL the faults listed in Historyspeicher/HistoryMemory have the "Error Status": Fehler Momentan NICHT/NOT Vorhanden = fault NOT currently present. So ALL faults in History are Intermittent or corrected.
b) There has been a consistently recurring fault 2AAE related to the Fuel Pump, and that Fault Definition is "Drehzahl zu hoch" = Rotation Speed/RPM too HIGH.

That last definition, taken together with the 6292 Code, indicating Pump Current too HIGH, suggests that SOMETHING is actually causing the pump to run FASTER than directed by the DME, or drawing more current than should be required, or the DME and/or EKP are receiving Inputs that indicate that. A short in X13845 COULD cause that.

I can't help but think that we could learn MORE if you could connect to the EKP. If you will attach a screenprint of what you see in the Right Listbox when you select "Engine" in the left listbox, I or others can suggest a line of code you can add to the file "E90.ENG", which is located in the Folder Path: C:\EC-APPS\INPA\CFGDAT

It would appear that adding ONE line of text (using Notepad), BELOW your current Text line that contains "Fuel Pump EKP" would allow you to connect to your fuel pump module variant, "EKP360." If you provide the two screens requested here, I'll provide the suggest line of text & indicate WHERE/HOW to add it.

JUST to make SURE that we're doing the correct thing, please do a screenprint of Functional Jobs, F2 Identification that shows SGBD for ADR 17 EKP (should be "EKP360" according to your error message when trying to connect). So what I'm asking for here is your two equivalent screens to the first two screens I attached to Post #16 above.
George
First things first, car has exactly 131,721 miles on it.
The first time it stalled was on September 6th.
Since then I have MAYBE put 400 miles on the car. I was on vacation for a week and have been driving my work truck a lot more but I am going to need to try to get this issue sorted sooner rather than later.

I changed the line of text in the file to EKP360 from EKPM60_2, it did not like when I added the EKP360 at the end. I am attaching the text file, as well as a few files of what I found once I entered the EKP. Basically, from what I can decipher, nothing we didn't already know.

It seems to me that the DME is talking to the EKP and telling it to run the fuel pump, but for some reason it it detecting the fuel pump is spinning to fast and/or the voltage is off. Based on that knowledge, the next step would be to pull the circle connector hooking to the fuel pump and tank sensors and put a volt meter on it and try to restart the car to see if there is signal going to the pump after the connector?


Side note, I am still getting the same error when I try to connect to some of the other modules of the car, like the TPMS, Trans, etc. Strangely enough I am able to get into the DME, xdrive system, and now the EKP. I am attaching a screen shot of the port setting for the usb-obd plug.

Also any cam shaft position codes would have been from when the problem first occurred, I unplugged and changed the camshft to see if that would change or help, and it did not.

Last edited by three28eye; 10-21-2019 at 06:44 PM.
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  #23  
Old 10-21-2019, 06:58 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Pics didn't attach.

Also the 10 error codes I attached the other day were the only 10, if I scroll down there is a few lines of blank text that is why there was an arrow.
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  #24  
Old 10-21-2019, 07:51 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Computer is having a heck of a time uploading pics tonight.

This is the data as soon as the car stalls. Sorry for the poor picture.


Also, I know I mentioned before, but I will be sitting in the car, after it stalls, ignition off, doors closed and keys in my hand, and I can hear the car recognize the keys are close and I hear the pump prime and car will start like nothing was wrong.
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Last edited by three28eye; 10-21-2019 at 07:56 PM.
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  #25  
Old 10-23-2019, 09:31 PM
three28eye three28eye is offline
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Any other suggestions?
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