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  #101  
Old 11-18-2018, 09:40 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by pdxway View Post
Thanks!
No problem.

One additional point is that, do try to fill with LL01FE 0w30 in next oil change(your local dealer should have value service for $90 + tax).

LL01FE has HTHS of 3.0+, while the old school LL01FE has HTHS of 3.5+. The net effect is that LL01FE on N20/N26 is much quieter and smoother than LL01, and may help with wear and tear of TC.
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  #102  
Old 11-19-2018, 07:27 AM
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pdxway pdxway is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
No problem.

One additional point is that, do try to fill with LL01FE 0w30 in next oil change(your local dealer should have value service for $90 + tax).

LL01FE has HTHS of 3.0+, while the old school LL01FE has HTHS of 3.5+. The net effect is that LL01FE on N20/N26 is much quieter and smoother than LL01, and may help with wear and tear of TC.
My average miles per year is ~8K. I do two oil changes per year with the dealer (because I bought the lifetime oil change option). Due to ~4K miles per oil change, and I also turn off ASS, do you think the type of oil matter as much?

Thanks!

Last edited by pdxway; 11-19-2018 at 07:28 AM.
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  #103  
Old 11-19-2018, 09:24 AM
ebs0712 ebs0712 is offline
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Has it been documented that the ASS (Automatic Stop System) is a contributor to Timing Chain failures? Thought leading cause was lack of oil changes or too long oil change intervals.
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  #104  
Old 11-19-2018, 10:59 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by pdxway View Post
My average miles per year is ~8K. I do two oil changes per year with the dealer (because I bought the lifetime oil change option). Due to ~4K miles per oil change, and I also turn off ASS, do you think the type of oil matter as much?

Thanks!
The relevance of 0w30 is that festers(including myself) notice a significant drop in startup roughness and improvement in running smoothness. BMWAG has not acknowledged one way or another if 0w30 helps to improve TC longevity. My car also has ASS disabled(reprogrammed to last user mode) too.
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  #105  
Old 11-19-2018, 11:01 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by ebs0712 View Post
Has it been documented that the ASS (Automatic Stop System) is a contributor to Timing Chain failures? Thought leading cause was lack of oil changes or too long oil change intervals.
There is no official comments from BMWAG about ASS nor oil change being culprits for N20/N26 timing chain issues.
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  #106  
Old 11-19-2018, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
The relevance of 0w30 is that festers(including myself) notice a significant drop in startup roughness and improvement in running smoothness. BMWAG has not acknowledged one way or another if 0w30 helps to improve TC longevity. My car also has ASS disabled(reprogrammed to last user mode) too.
I see. I guess the best course of action is to check visually and listen for whining regularly. Thanks!
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  #107  
Old 02-14-2019, 06:24 PM
Kittrick27 Kittrick27 is offline
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Hey guys I'm going through this now 2013 with 67000 miles timing chain guides went and toasted my engine with no warning signs......was on interstate doing 80mph really messed it up..... heard from dealership today and said bmw will be replacing my engine..... feeling very lucky today
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  #108  
Old 02-15-2019, 08:22 AM
jwalz1 jwalz1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kittrick27 View Post
Hey guys I'm going through this now 2013 with 67000 miles timing chain guides went and toasted my engine with no warning signs......was on interstate doing 80mph really messed it up..... heard from dealership today and said bmw will be replacing my engine..... feeling very lucky today
When you say "No warning signs" do you mean you never heard any telltale noise or where you looking into the oil filler cap occasionally to see if the chain was getting shiny on the edges?
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  #109  
Old 02-15-2019, 09:32 AM
John MS John MS is offline
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And actually listening carefully to the engine. Or just not hearing anything while driving down the highway.
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  #110  
Old 03-05-2019, 10:23 PM
meisraul meisraul is offline
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Guys, I need your help with my situation

Vehicle Details: 2013 BMW 328i with 51K miles (CPO expired 3 months ago)

Two weeks ago, car failed to respond to ignition switch with "Ignition Malfunction" on the dashboard. Took it to a local auto shop and initial diagnosis showed that the engine got seized and needs to be replaced with likely cause being lack of lubrication and possible oil pump failure (oil change done a few weeks before the failure). Mechanic recommended getting vehicle diagnosed at the dealership to see if it is covered under 7/70k extended warranty (if it's related to timing chain/oil pump drive chain)

The dealership gave me a $3200 quote to diagnose the issue ($1700 to remove the valve cover and if they can't identify from top of the engine, then additional $1500 to remove the oil pan). I was told BMW will not cover for the tear down even if the failure is caused by the timing chain/oil pump drive chain. Authorized them to go with the diagnosis hoping for the best case scenario of BMW replacing engine under extended warranty.

A week later dealership came back saying that both oil pump drive and timing chain are intact, engine bearing failure is the cause of failure and requires a new engine. Dealership reached to BMW area manager to see if BMW can offer any help with replacing a new engine.

Meanwhile, I called BMW NA customer care and requested their assistance in this matter (i.e. dealership charging exorbitant diagnosis fee and whats the reason for bearing failure fail on a low mileage (50k) well-serviced vehicle). I stressed on the fact that nothing abnormal came back during my prior service visits and all of the sudden engine got seized without any warning signs (that too within 3 months of my CPO expiry - not to sound paranoid but as if holding off the failure until the warranty expired). BMW opened a case and is following up with the dealership - hoping to hear from them soon.

Today I got a message from the dealership saying that BMW agreed to pay 50% of the engine replacement cost as goodwill and my half would be around $7000. I am waiting on BMW to come back on my case so that I can ask for close to 100%, although not sure if I have room for negotiation (wonder how a bearing can fail on a 50k vehicle without oil pump malfunction - I am not technical enough to know if they can completely rule out oil pump chain as not the root cause just because it is intact).

Worst case scenario, if BMW doesn't go beyond 50% - what are my options? Knowing that KBB on this vehicle is around 15K - is it even worth to pay 7k for engine repairs? I recently spent 2.5K on new tires and brakes. I need to move fast as I have been on rentals for the past two weeks and it's getting expensive. Thanks much for your time!

Update: going back and forth with the dealership, final offer from BMW would make me responsible for $3700. Should I go with this or wait for BMW to get back on my case?

Last edited by meisraul; 03-06-2019 at 10:20 AM.
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  #111  
Old 03-06-2019, 06:52 AM
John MS John MS is offline
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You should push BMW harder for them to cover more.
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  #112  
Old 03-16-2019, 06:34 AM
mikessc mikessc is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
There is no official comments from BMWAG about ASS nor oil change being culprits for N20/N26 timing chain issues.
BMW acknowledge that ASS will cause problem to piston rod bearing.
Read page 41 of B46/B48 engine technical documentation which can be
downloaded from F30 bimmerpost 'N20, N26, B46, B48 TURBO ENGINE / DRIVETRAIN / EXHAUST MODIFICATIONS' sub-forum.
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  #113  
Old 03-16-2019, 11:55 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mikessc View Post
BMW acknowledge that ASS will cause problem to piston rod bearing.
Read page 41 of B46/B48 engine technical documentation which can be
downloaded from F30 bimmerpost 'N20, N26, B46, B48 TURBO ENGINE / DRIVETRAIN / EXHAUST MODIFICATIONS' sub-forum.
That is great info, thanks for sharing!

https://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesforyou/B46-Engine.pdf

The PDF says(for B46) ASS's elevated starting cycles require sufficient lubricating oil, hence OCI may be linked to rod bearing issues while ASS is active.

So how does rod bearing issue relate to timing chain failure?

The N20 technical training documents do not have similar warning though.

Last edited by namelessman; 03-16-2019 at 06:12 PM.
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  #114  
Old 03-16-2019, 02:29 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikessc View Post
BMW acknowledge that ASS will cause problem to piston rod bearing.
Read page 41 of B46/B48 engine technical documentation which can be
downloaded from F30 bimmerpost 'N20, N26, B46, B48 TURBO ENGINE / DRIVETRAIN / EXHAUST MODIFICATIONS' sub-forum.
You can post the link here if you’d like.
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  #115  
Old 03-17-2019, 12:56 AM
mikessc mikessc is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
That is great info, thanks for sharing!

https://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesforyou/B46-Engine.pdf

The PDF says(for B46) ASS's elevated starting cycles require sufficient lubricating oil, hence OCI may be linked to rod bearing issues while ASS is active.

So how does rod bearing issue relate to timing chain failure?

The N20 technical training documents do not have similar warning though.
Please recall that F series cars are the first generation cars that BMW implement ASS.
IMHO BMW did not realize the full impact then.

The document mentioned that there won't be sufficient oil between the bearing and crankshaft when engine is stopped.
IMHO good oil will definitely help the system to re-establish the oil film betwen the parts faster.

Last edited by mikessc; 03-17-2019 at 01:34 AM. Reason: Spelling error
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  #116  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:05 AM
mikessc mikessc is offline
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https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=63

I not saying that ASS cause timing chain problem.

That is my car and it is in the workshop now with the VC off.
The chain did not stretch and there is no whining noise.
But the part where the side guilde rail clip on to top rail is broken.
IMHO nothing will stop this and whether BMW change the guide or not is immaterial. IMHO this will happen again after 50 or 60K miles.

My workshop see alot of N20 with this problem with mileage around 60K miles. In my country, 95% of BMW F series car are with N20 engines as 6 cylinders car are super expensive here.

IMHO BMW is anticipating more cars will have this problem. That's the reason why they widen the US tiiming chain 7/70K extended warranty to include cars that produced up to Feb-2015.
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  #117  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:16 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mikessc View Post
https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...6&postcount=63

I not saying that ASS cause timing chain problem.

That is my car and it is in the workshop now with the VC off.
The chain did not stretch and there is no whining noise.
But the part where the side guilde rail clip on to top rail is broken.
IMHO nothing will stop this and whether BMW change the guide or not is immaterial. IMHO this will happen again after 50 or 60K miles.

My workshop see alot of N20 with this problem with mileage around 60K miles. In my country, 95% of BMW F series car are with N20 engines as 6 cylinders car are super expensive here.

IMHO BMW is anticipating more cars will have this problem. That's the reason why they widen the US tiiming chain 7/70K extended warranty to include cars that produced up to Feb-2015.
Wow thanks for sharing! This is not good at all, esp. when the snap on part already cracks/breaks off while the engine has zero whine.

From your description, your N20 already has 6k-mile OCI, plus no ASS, and the plastic guard rail still cracks.

Has your car frequently experienced high rpm, e.g. track day, towing heavy load, extended uphill, 160km/hr speed, etc, etc?
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  #118  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:19 AM
mikessc mikessc is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Wow thanks for sharing! This is not good at all, esp. when the snap on part already cracks/breaks off while the engine has zero whine.

From your description, your N20 already has 6k-mile OCI, plus no ASS, and the plastic guard rail still cracks.

Has your car frequently experienced high rpm, e.g. track day, towing heavy load, extended uphill, 160km/hr speed, etc, etc?
Not at all. It's an 528i and the car float LOL.
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  #119  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:19 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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IMHO BMW is anticipating more cars will have this problem. That's the reason why they widen the US tiiming chain 7/70K extended warranty to include cars that produced up to Feb-2015.
My hope is that my car will experience issue, and be fixed under ELW!

But the issue is without taking VC off, there is no way to examine that clip-on part.

So now my other hope is my VCG will leak soon!
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  #120  
Old 03-17-2019, 01:22 AM
mikessc mikessc is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
My hope is that my car will experience issue, and be fixed under ELW!

But the issue is without taking VC off, there is no way to examine that clip-on part.

So now my other hope is my VCG will leak soon!
My car was sent in due to VCG leak.
I went to workshop and check it myself and found the crack.
Please check this if you have the VC off.
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  #121  
Old 03-17-2019, 02:05 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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My car was sent in due to VCG leak.
I went to workshop and check it myself and found the crack.
Please check this if you have the VC off.
The compelling evidence now makes me think that every 70k miles should have a pre-emptive "maintenance" on this TC + guard rails + oil pump + oil chain, regardless of pre or post 2/2015 production.
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  #122  
Old 03-17-2019, 07:28 AM
mikessc mikessc is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
My hope is that my car will experience issue, and be fixed under ELW!

But the issue is without taking VC off, there is no way to examine that clip-on part.

So now my other hope is my VCG will leak soon!
After looking at some photos that I took, I think there is a way for you to inspect this using a bore scope without removing the VC.

The INTAKE CAMSHAFT SENSOR IS IN FRONT AND 2 INCHES TO THE RIGHT OF CLIP-ON SECTION.

You can remove the sensor and stick a bore scope and check it.

I am not absolutely sure now. I'll be going to the workshop tommorow and I take more photo.

See attached image.

Correction:
Sorry. Sensor is to the right not left of clip-on part.


Hope this will help fellow BMW owners.
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Last edited by mikessc; 03-17-2019 at 11:40 AM. Reason: Correction
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  #123  
Old 03-17-2019, 10:47 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mikessc View Post
After looking at some photos that I took, I think there is a way for you to inspect this using a bore scope without removing the VC.

The INTAKE CAMSHAFT SENSOR IS IN FRONT AND 2 INCHES TO THE LEFT OF CLIP-ON SECTION.

You can remove the sensor and stick a bore scope and check it.

I am not absolutely sure now. I'll be going to the workshop tommorow and I take
more photo.

See attached image.

Hope this will help fellow BMW owners.
Thanks for the out of the box idea!

The top left TC area can be seen from the opening of oil filling cap.

Maybe a borescope with a semi-rigid extension can be shaped to navigate around TC .... may be not ....

The camshaft sensor opening can be another option, time to head to trusted indies to discuss!
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  #124  
Old 03-17-2019, 11:03 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by mikessc View Post
The INTAKE CAMSHAFT SENSOR IS IN FRONT AND 2 INCHES TO THE LEFT OF CLIP-ON SECTION.
This is a great video to replace N20/N26 VCG, it is unclear where the intake camshaft sensor goes( around 7:00 when the tech gets to the front of VC).

N20/N26 VCG can easily be $1k around here even for indies, not an easy DIY.


(fixed video link)

Last edited by namelessman; 03-17-2019 at 11:38 AM.
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  #125  
Old 03-17-2019, 11:30 AM
mikessc mikessc is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
This is a great video to replace N20/N26 VCG, it is unclear where the intake camshaft sensor goes( around 7:00 when the tech gets to the front of VC).

N20/N26 VCG can easily be $1k around here even for indies, not an easy DIY.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...amshaft+sensor
Look for black connector with GREEN dot on it in the attached photo.
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