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  #26  
Old 04-15-2019, 06:58 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
The car knows more about the condition of the battery than the CTEK does.

The BULK charge phase ends when nominal charge voltage (you selected 14.4 VDC) is reached while charging at 4.3 Amps. Then the charging voltage is held constant while the charging current declines to some unstated value, when 'charging' is ended with the ANALYSE phase.

The car tracks State of Health - SoH - which is available for query by a capable communications program. SoH is a ratio expressed as percent of some unstated actual current battery parameters compared to those parameters at registration. The / a parameter may be minimum voltage during starter operation maximum current.

You can roughly track the declining battery capacity by noting the time required to recover your typical battery use discharge.

Battery capacity primarily diminishes due to loss of electrolyte water. As the water is lost the electrolyte level decreases making a smaller plate area available to the process. That reduces AH capacity. Also as water is lost the acid becomes more concentrated and that raises apparent battery voltage.

As the battery ages the charging will end sooner at lower capacity, which you will see as shorter and shorter completion times.

I usually charge with my CTEK 4.3 MUS weekly, the winter charges are longer, by about twice, than the summer charges. You can estimate the capacity charged as one-half of the hours charged times the maximum charging current 4 Amps. I charge about 10 AH in the winter and 5 AH in the summer. Milady Wife loves the bun warmers and as soon as the engine is running she has the bun warmers on. Also, in Wisconsin, the 1000 Watt 80 Amp PTC electric heater is on more often and longer.

What the ECU knows about the battery comes from the Intelligent Battery Sensor - IBS - which measures and reports Coulombs discharged, Coulombs charged, battery (system connected) voltage, and temperature. A Coulomb of charge per second is an ampere.
That is an informative post!

So is there any personal experience using the RECOND mode, which supposedly heat up the battery electrolyte, leading to water loss?

Also is your AGM battery charged with 14.7V weekly?
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  #27  
Old 04-15-2019, 07:46 PM
RRRize RRRize is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
The car knows more about the condition of the battery than the CTEK does.

The BULK charge phase ends when nominal charge voltage (you selected 14.4 VDC) is reached while charging at 4.3 Amps. Then the charging voltage is held constant while the charging current declines to some unstated value, when 'charging' is ended with the ANALYSE phase.

The car tracks State of Health - SoH - which is available for query by a capable communications program. SoH is a ratio expressed as percent of some unstated actual current battery parameters compared to those parameters at registration. The / a parameter may be minimum voltage during starter operation maximum current.

You can roughly track the declining battery capacity by noting the time required to recover your typical battery use discharge.

Battery capacity primarily diminishes due to loss of electrolyte water. As the water is lost the electrolyte level decreases making a smaller plate area available to the process. That reduces AH capacity. Also as water is lost the acid becomes more concentrated and that raises apparent battery voltage.

As the battery ages the charging will end sooner at lower capacity, which you will see as shorter and shorter completion times.

I usually charge with my CTEK 4.3 MUS weekly, the winter charges are longer, by about twice, than the summer charges. You can estimate the capacity charged as one-half of the hours charged times the maximum charging current 4 Amps. I charge about 10 AH in the winter and 5 AH in the summer. Milady Wife loves the bun warmers and as soon as the engine is running she has the bun warmers on. Also, in Wisconsin, the 1000 Watt 80 Amp PTC electric heater is on more often and longer.

What the ECU knows about the battery comes from the Intelligent Battery Sensor - IBS - which measures and reports Coulombs discharged, Coulombs charged, battery (system connected) voltage, and temperature. A Coulomb of charge per second is an ampere.
Wow, I'm a bit overwhelmed. Do you have any direction on where I can look to get beginners knowledge of battery charging/maintenance? I'd love to really not only fully understand substance-rich post like yours but also to become more informed on how to work with and maintain rechargeable batteries in general from a concept point of view.

Thanks for your contributions!
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  #28  
Old 04-15-2019, 08:53 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRRize View Post
Wow, I'm a bit overwhelmed. Do you have any direction on where I can look to get beginners knowledge of battery charging/maintenance? I'd love to really not only fully understand substance-rich post like yours but also to become more informed on how to work with and maintain rechargeable batteries in general from a concept point of view.

Thanks for your contributions!
A practical way to look at this is, do drive the car for sufficient distances to allow charging with BMW's IBS.

In the absence of that, do use intelligent/smart charger like CTEK that can mimic some but not all of IBS, and also maintain good float/pulse charging to top off(esp. during long periods of idle)
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  #29  
Old 04-16-2019, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRRize View Post
Wow, I'm a bit overwhelmed. Do you have any direction on where I can look to get beginners knowledge of battery charging/maintenance? I'd love to really not only fully understand substance-rich post like yours but also to become more informed on how to work with and maintain rechargeable batteries in general from a concept point of view.

Thanks for your contributions!
Here is the basic BMW document, Battery Basics attached. Read also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead%E2%80%93acid_battery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUoU_battery_charging

https://batteryuniversity.com/

http://batteryfaq.org/

The BMW document is translated technical German and must be read very closely but not taking the awkward spots at face value. Read the references at the Wikipedia. Battery technology is a hundred years mix of tradition, technology and advancing physics and chemistry - and a lot to absorb.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Battery Basics 102010.pdf (1.06 MB, 20 views)
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Last edited by Doug Huffman; 04-16-2019 at 03:51 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-16-2019, 09:34 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Here is the basic BMW document, Battery Basics attached.
Good stuff! My guess is CTEK MUS 4.3 is one of the approved charger? So I will recharge [email protected] as suggested in the PDF.

Now maybe the BMW brand has max. voltage at 14.8V instead?

https://www.bmwblog.com/2016/01/28/b...ttery-charger/

Last edited by namelessman; 04-16-2019 at 09:35 AM.
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  #31  
Old 04-16-2019, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
My CTEK MUS 4.3 was just done charging the battery. 14.4V was used(but probably should use 14.7V). The charger went through the 7 steps without issue, so it appears my 6.5-year battery is still A-OK.
I also used the same CTEK, I'll keep recharging my battery for as long as it can hold up.
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  #32  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:10 AM
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From BMW Battery Basics

Quote:
Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Good stuff! My guess is CTEK MUS 4.3 is one of the approved charger? So I will recharge [email protected] as suggested in the PDF.

Now maybe the BMW brand has max. voltage at 14.8V instead?
14.8 VDC charging voltage risks excessive gassing, what an AGM is most fragile to.

BMW and AGM manufacturers assume that there is a step change increase in the 'Temperature-Voltage-Gassing' rate function between 14.7 VDC and 14.8 VDV. I was taught that it is a smooth function. I believe that the BMW documents say never charge at normal temperature at greater than 14.7 VDC. ONLY at low temperature may one charge at 14.8 VDC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battery Basics - page 19
Service Instructions for AGM Batteries
[ ... ]
Charging
When charging batteries in the "stand alone" mode, the maximum charge voltage of 14.8 volts must not be exceeded. Even briefly charging an AGM battery with a charge voltage of more than 14.8 volts (voltages usually used in rapid charge programs) will damage the battery.
WARNING!!!
Do not charge AGM batteries with 14.8 volts! Do not use rapid charging programs!
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Last edited by Doug Huffman; 04-17-2019 at 04:18 AM.
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  #33  
Old 04-17-2019, 08:06 AM
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CTek goes through a diagnostic check when it is first connected. If you watch the lights it will give you an indication of your battery's health. I recently had a MB wagon battery show it was failing. I fully charged it and then started up Ctek again and it showed it was failing. Very handy device to have.
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  #34  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:03 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
14.8 VDC charging voltage risks excessive gassing, what an AGM is most fragile to.

BMW and AGM manufacturers assume that there is a step change increase in the 'Temperature-Voltage-Gassing' rate function between 14.7 VDC and 14.8 VDV. I was taught that it is a smooth function. I believe that the BMW documents say never charge at normal temperature at greater than 14.7 VDC. ONLY at low temperature may one charge at 14.8 VDC.
The BMW doc does say charge at 14.8V though. So should charging of AGM be at 14.4V, even though battery may not be fully charged?

The warning probably should say "Do not charge AGM batteries with higher than 14.8 volts! Do not use rapid charging programs!"

"The battery may only be charged using the chargers approved by BMW at a constant charging voltage of 14.8 V.If possible, the battery temperature during charging should be between 15 įC and 25 įC. Under these conditions, the battery is adequate charged if the charge current has fallen below 2.5 A. If the charging process is carried out at low temperatures, it is only to be terminated after the charge current falls short of 1.5 A. If the battery is charged when fitted, the charging process must take place via the jump start terminal point. This is the only way to ensure that the charging process is detected correctly by the vehicle electronics on vehicles with an intelligent battery sensor (IBS). If the battery is charged directly at the battery terminals, misinterpretations of the battery condition and, under certain circumstances, unwanted Check Control messages or fault code memory entries can occur."

"As described in bulletin SI B04 27 06, be certain that the charging voltage on approved BMW chargers has been set to 14.8 volts. Failure to set the charge rate to 14.8 volts will result in the charger switching to FC (floating charge) before the battery is adequately charged."

Last edited by namelessman; 04-17-2019 at 09:13 AM.
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  #35  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:17 AM
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Whatever. The ultimate hazard is gassing away the limited amount of electrolyte.
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  #36  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:27 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by Doug Huffman View Post
Whatever. The ultimate hazard is gassing away the limited amount of electrolyte.
So does charging at 14.4V prevent loss of electrolyte?

Now CTEK does have a RECOND mode that charges at 15.8V during recond stage in order to loosen up the deposit, so that step probably will lead to excessive gassing that will trigger release.

But does that mean frequent 14.8V/14.7V (and not exceeding) can be good to prevent deposit anyway?
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  #37  
Old 04-17-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
So does charging at 14.4V prevent loss of electrolyte?

Now CTEK does have a RECOND mode that charges at 15.8V during recond stage in order to loosen up the deposit, so that step probably will lead to excessive gassing that will trigger release.

But does that mean frequent 14.8V/14.7V (and not exceeding) can be good to prevent deposit anyway?
RECOND is not recommended for AGM batteries.
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  #38  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:17 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
RECOND is not recommended for AGM batteries.
That makes sense.

Just got back to work and observed the following voltages from hidden menu in short 5-mile local commute.

ignition on - 12.4V
engine start moment - 12.3V
car not moving - 12.0V to 12.1V
car in motion without alternator (accelerating)- 14.3V to 14.4V
car in motion with alternator (cruising/braking) - 14.7V to 14.8V, a few blips of 14.9V
car stopped after a drive, engine on - 14.4V to 14.6V

The voltage of car stopped, engine off, ignition on, was not recorded.

When the engine is cold, the charging voltage mainly stays at 14.8V. When the engine gets warm, the charging volume bounces between 14.7V to 14.8V.

So it looks like CTEK's 14.7V/4.3A charging is A-OK!
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  #39  
Old 04-17-2019, 10:22 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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My little experiment gets me to wonder, is the car's alternator [email protected] going to destroy those aftermarket AGM battery?!?

Last edited by namelessman; 04-17-2019 at 01:24 PM.
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  #40  
Old 04-17-2019, 04:16 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Just observed that at highway speed, alternator off is 14.2V, and alternator on is 14.8V. The voltages are consistent at those speeds(>50mph).

Also, after the car is stopped, and engine still on, the voltage drops to 14.2V to 14.3V. When engine is off but ignition still on, voltage drops to 12.8V.

So it looks like the alternator clutch is 2-stage, partial (14.2V) versus fully engaged(14.8V).
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  #41  
Old 04-23-2019, 07:43 PM
Arctic Jon Arctic Jon is offline
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I had to replace the battery on my 2013 F30 a few weeks ago, along with the alternator. About $1050 for both installed at my INDY. I do love my two BMWs but I smile when I think of my 2003 Dodge Ram 3500 diesel with 80,000 miles. Still has the original batteries, still starts like a champ, and the batteries test strong. It's not near as much fun to drive as the F30 or Z3 Coupe, but it sure tows my fifth wheel.

Last edited by Arctic Jon; 04-23-2019 at 07:49 PM.
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  #42  
Old 04-23-2019, 08:36 PM
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holey moley $1050 for battery and install...come on bmw!
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  #43  
Old 04-23-2019, 09:49 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by LarryboysUDM View Post
holey moley $1050 for battery and install...come on bmw!
$1050 was both battery and alternator?
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  #44  
Old 04-24-2019, 06:24 AM
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Sorry I wasnít clear. $1050 was for the new battery and oem alternator parts and installation.
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Old 09-09-2019, 07:36 AM
lyleswk lyleswk is offline
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I disconnected my battery this weekend before an engine swap. Do I need to register it? Note i moved the ECU from the old engine onto the new one.
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Old 10-16-2019, 11:33 AM
cuchimiro cuchimiro is offline
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Help

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Originally Posted by bimmerbingo View Post
Thanks for sharing your experience! I also replaced my OEM battery recently myself without paying anything! Why even pay the $26 for the app when you can register it using ISTA-D, the same tool used by BMW shops and not some 3rd party app? All it takes is opening up ISTA-D, read vehicle info, activities tab, service function->body,->voltage supply->battery->register battery change and follow prompts

Thank you for your guidance and please excuse my ignorance but is there any way you can tell me how to get the ISTA-D? I want to replace the battery for my wife's F30 as well... Thank you in advance.
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