Incredible Depreciation for BMW - Page 6 - Bimmerfest - BMW Forums



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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 / F34 / F36 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation BMW 3 Series Sedan F30/F31/F34 and the first first generation 4 Series Coupe F32/F33/F36. Get the latest 3 and 4 series pricing from our ordering and pricing guide sticky thread.

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  #126  
Old 05-03-2018, 05:44 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Originally Posted by laser View Post
Honda S2000 ... purchased a 2007 one year pre-owned in 2008 for $28,000

No maintence costs other than oil changes

Sold 2014 for $28,000

Boom!
Awesome car.

I rented one of the two-liter S2000's back in 2000 in LA, drove it up the coast to my meeting in Ventura County, then spent a day ripping around the mountains. It was too small for me, I'm not really a convertible person, and the two-liter cars were tweaky, impossible to drive smoothly and gently. Once I learned to drive-it-like-I-stole-it, it was fine.

When I got home, I ordered an E46 M3. I got it 17 months later.
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  #127  
Old 05-03-2018, 05:56 AM
Gene Horn Gene Horn is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Those are expensive items, luckily for my PZEV car, the fuel pumps and engine valve stem seals will be covered by BMWNA up to 15 years and 150000 miles.

So did your AC compressor require a dash tear down? The F30 AC compressor appears to be accessible from under glove box, just like some Accords, but there is no confirmation from foremen/indies.

AC/dash fan on F30 is (relatively) easy to replace from under the glove box, it is really cool when BMW engineers put accessibility, serviceability(and of course reliability) as their priorities.

The transmission actuator and ZF 8AT transmission itself on F30 are not cheap, ZF does recommend filter + fluid change in 60k miles, while dealers say 100k miles, maybe shelling out $900+ for that job would be a good strategy.
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Your points are well made.
The AC compressor is out front on my X5, no dash teardown.
I paid for the transmission fluid change at 90,000. The transmission slipped at 112,000.
Are you sure the valve stems are covered by the PZEV? What is the oil usage requirement? I had mine replaced when the oil consumption reached 1 quart in around 1,000 miles.
Same question on the fuel pump coverage under PZEV.
Are both emission requirements?
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  #128  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:00 AM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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Originally Posted by PK2348 View Post
Yes, thatís mostly correct, what is your question though?
I just wanted to know that I got the rules right should I decide to lease for my next purchase...
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  #129  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:08 AM
duberalles duberalles is offline
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Originally Posted by laser View Post
Honda S2000 ... purchased a 2007 one year pre-owned in 2008 for $28,000

No maintence costs other than oil changes

Sold 2014 for $28,000

Boom!
My stepson had two WRX totaled (first one a SUV run into it, the second stolen and crashed)....with the amount receive from insurance the car payment on the new WRX went actually down both times...

They are ugly as sin but these WRX and STI hold their value like crazy....almost non-SUV Porsche level
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  #130  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:32 AM
LMK5 LMK5 is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
1% of cap cost is based on PK's example of $60K sticker. 529 per month. In that example, it is 0.882%. That extra 0.15-0.2% drop adds up, e.g. on a $60k sticker, a 0.2% drop per monthly is $4k+, or extra savings of 7% of MSRP.
nameless, so what you're saying here is the payment is indeed less than 1% of MSRP correct? Looks like a good deal to me, assuming the cap cost was not brought down with customer cash.

Still not sure how you can base a good payment on 1% of cap cost, but here's a question: For the deal you show at 60k sticker, based on the fixed terms of the deal, what would the negotiated cap cost have to be to get the payment to 1% of cap cost, and if that number can be reached mathematically, is that price a realistic one?
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  #131  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:34 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by Gene Horn View Post
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Your points are well made.
The AC compressor is out front on my X5, no dash teardown.
I paid for the transmission fluid change at 90,000. The transmission slipped at 112,000.
Are you sure the valve stems are covered by the PZEV? What is the oil usage requirement? I had mine replaced when the oil consumption reached 1 quart in around 1,000 miles.
Same question on the fuel pump coverage under PZEV.
Are both emission requirements?
Ah yes, compressor is in engine bay, the evaporator is the one behind dash.

Yike, AT fluid change at 90k still did not prevent slipping at 100k+?!? Was the service done at dealer? Maybe next car should be back to MT for me.

Fuel pump control unit and injection valve(same as valve stem seal?) listed as PZEV emission parts for my MY13 N26, which has 2-yr/15k-mile OCI. So far at 55k miles my N26 burns no oil for 6.5k mile oil changes.

Did your valve stem seal issue trigger any CEL?

FYI, it looks like carbon buildup(causing smog failure) is also covered:

http://bmwwarrantyenforcer.blogspot....rs-150000.html

Last edited by namelessman; 05-03-2018 at 10:08 AM.
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  #132  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:59 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by LMK5 View Post
nameless, so what you're saying here is the payment is indeed less than 1% of MSRP correct? Looks like a good deal to me, assuming the cap cost was not brought down with customer cash.

Still not sure how you can base a good payment on 1% of cap cost, but here's a question: For the deal you show at 60k sticker, based on the fixed terms of the deal, what would the negotiated cap cost have to be to get the payment to 1% of cap cost, and if that number can be reached mathematically, is that price a realistic one?
Excellent question. Details matter in the quest for strategies.

E.g. BMWFS has cap [email protected]%, and [email protected]%(15k-mile/yr), lease interest rate of 3%, for 3 years.

With those terms, 0.8% of MSRP, or 1% of 80% cap cost, is mathematically doable, even with $1500 bank fees + DMV(etc, etc) plus 9% CA tax included.

When the RV drops to 60%(other parameters remain the same), the math starts to inch above 1% of cap cost. Obviously if cap cost can be dropped to 75% then the math still works.

The key really is how much depreciation is paid by the lessees.
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  #133  
Old 05-03-2018, 10:48 AM
Stick Man Stick Man is offline
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Originally Posted by openwheelracing View Post
Well it depends on the negotiated price, MF, residual value, APR what what you are trying to accomplish with the car. There is no definitive answer that it is "always" the smart choice to buy and hold for a decade. I can understand if you spend all your money without investment opportunities in life, or relatively lower income, or just don't care about time behind a wheel in general.

Perhaps you bought a Brioni suit 5 years ago for $5000, would you wear it in an interview that potentially doubles your salary from $150K to $300K, commutes 5 miles on the PCH with an ocean view corner office? What if you had put on 40 pounds and now it doesn't quite fit? Do you risk ripping your pants and potentially lose a great gig? Or....................................perhaps you can just go buy a Brooks Brothers $2000 suit and get it tailored for $150, and another 5 years after, and another 5 years after........or.....maybe even OMG, rent one for $200.

What is the position for being a James Bond impersonator?

What job is this where you used to make 150K and you just magically get an interview going to $300k?

Are you just using hyperbole ? That example is just romance if so and has no basis in reality.

In all my years of working there was one candidate that someone brought up his wrinkled pants. It was not by the hiring manager and it was an entry level/ just out of college person. Otherwise I have seen plenty of weird IT workers wearing very bizarre clothes and making a pretty nice salary.

Last edited by Stick Man; 05-03-2018 at 10:49 AM.
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  #134  
Old 05-03-2018, 11:05 AM
enjoythemusic enjoythemusic is offline
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Did you find it maint-intensive?
Is the sky blue and the grass green in Florida? Is there sand at the beach? Alas, it is not unusual for this marque it seems.

Have some service bills that would prob scare a few here. But hey, i went in knowing there's always a possibility, problem is had hopes VW's German engineering would be a bit better. Ah well, been lovin' the BMW 435i and she's been a good one. True German high quality engineering built to be driven.

Have been through many cars, a few trucks, etc, so yeah sometimes things happen. Prob is, back then few knew just how bad Bentley cars are... until... boom. Now you go online and see it within quite a few places, see low resale values even on 2014(!) cars, yet many years waay back when we didn't know...

Ah well, enjoy the drive
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  #135  
Old 05-03-2018, 12:56 PM
Gene Horn Gene Horn is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
Ah yes, compressor is in engine bay, the evaporator is the one behind dash.

Yike, AT fluid change at 90k still did not prevent slipping at 100k+?!? Was the service done at dealer? Maybe next car should be back to MT for me.

Fuel pump control unit and injection valve(same as valve stem seal?) listed as PZEV emission parts for my MY13 N26, which has 2-yr/15k-mile OCI. So far at 55k miles my N26 burns no oil for 6.5k mile oil changes.

Did your valve stem seal issue trigger any CEL?

FYI, it looks like carbon buildup(causing smog failure) is also covered:

http://bmwwarrantyenforcer.blogspot....rs-150000.html
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Yes, service done at dealer on trans fluid.

Valve stem seals go around engine valves and keep motor oil from seeping into the cylinder when they open to let the injected gas from the gas injector (valve) enter the cylinder through the open engine valve. Oil burns up with gas at ignition. In short, injector valves control gas while valve seals control oil.

No CLE, no emission inspection failures. Maybe yes it the engine valve seal leak gets bad enough. The way to tell is look at the tail pipe while revving the engine a little (requires two people) as it backs down. If you see any smoke, it is from oil likely seeping through the engine valve seals.

According to the BMW mechanic, all BMW's use the same valve seals and have the valve seal issue! It is just a question of wear over time. (If the oil level goes down noticeably between oil changes oil either leaked somewhere else or goes through the engine valve seals. My oil level stayed up in the early mileage but gradually started to go down between changes. Oil leaking through the piston rings is a different issue.)
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  #136  
Old 05-03-2018, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Gene Horn View Post
I paid for the transmission fluid change at 90,000. The transmission slipped at 112,000.
Are you sure the valve stems are covered by the PZEV? What is the oil usage requirement? I had mine replaced when the oil consumption reached 1 quart in around 1,000 miles.
Same question on the fuel pump coverage under PZEV.
Are both emission requirements?
I think 90k is a little late for a tranny flush; at that point itís probably best to leave it alone. I believe general wisdom is to change it every 60k if youíre going to bother to do it at all.
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  #137  
Old 05-03-2018, 02:11 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by chiefneil View Post
I think 90k is a little late for a tranny flush; at that point itís probably best to leave it alone. I believe general wisdom is to change it every 60k if youíre going to bother to do it at all.
60k miles is recommended by ZF too. OK this will go on my to-do list then, just need to wait for the discount coupons.
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  #138  
Old 05-03-2018, 02:19 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Originally Posted by Gene Horn View Post
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Yes, service done at dealer on trans fluid.

Valve stem seals go around engine valves and keep motor oil from seeping into the cylinder when they open to let the injected gas from the gas injector (valve) enter the cylinder through the open engine valve. Oil burns up with gas at ignition. In short, injector valves control gas while valve seals control oil.

No CLE, no emission inspection failures. Maybe yes it the engine valve seal leak gets bad enough. The way to tell is look at the tail pipe while revving the engine a little (requires two people) as it backs down. If you see any smoke, it is from oil likely seeping through the engine valve seals.

According to the BMW mechanic, all BMW's use the same valve seals and have the valve seal issue! It is just a question of wear over time. (If the oil level goes down noticeably between oil changes oil either leaked somewhere else or goes through the engine valve seals. My oil level stayed up in the early mileage but gradually started to go down between changes. Oil leaking through the piston rings is a different issue.)
Thanks for the detailed descriptions.

If there is no CEL, or the parts listed as emission-related then it will not be covered by emission warranty.

My old E39 did burn 1Q of oil per 1500 miles when sold. The new owner did not say much about oil consumption and he used Castrol LL-01 5W40, maybe the heavy/heavier oil helps a bit on oil sipping through the valve stem seals?
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  #139  
Old 05-03-2018, 07:50 PM
mrminsky mrminsky is offline
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As I was pulling into Publix today, a fairly new GORGEOUS BLUE/PURPLE M6 Convertible parked right next to me. Based on what I just saw, the car retails for about $140K. The first thing I thought of besides admiring this work of art was how much money this car has depreciated since purchased. This might not be an issue for this owner due to the fact that he can probably afford both the car and perhaps the depreciation. Maybe he is smart and he leased it. The more I think about this, I honestly think the smart money is in leasing when it comes to these BMWs. If you can get a $50,000 car for a $500 a month payment. That basically equals to $54K which translate to 9 years of payments, a new car every 3 years, no maintenance and repair expenses and not financial headaches... Assuming of course you can live with 12K miles a year and the idea that you do not have to own it. I know I am somewhat over simplifying it, but I am not too far off from reality. A low mileage CPO at a very good price is the second best scenario assuming but again with BMW no longer including the 6 year warranty maybe a used one even less with one of those fancy third party warranties which could be very expensive as well.
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  #140  
Old 05-03-2018, 09:19 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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If you can get a $50,000 car for a $500 a month payment. That basically equals to $54K which translate to 9 years of payments, a new car every 3 years, no maintenance and repair expenses and not financial headaches...
$500 monthly on a $50k MSRP car would be nice, although given the latest lease terms(e.g. 55% RV, 3% interest rate, 85% cap cost), the cost including $1500 bank fee + DMV + tax is almost $600 a month, or $65k in 9 months.

That is on a car that, at 85% MSRP, is around $42.5k + tax + fee, let's say $46k. So that 9 years of leasing carry $19k premium, or 40%+, over the buy option.

The numbers are not really that favorable for leases once BMWFS strips the lease subsidies.
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  #141  
Old 05-04-2018, 07:12 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Thank goodness for extended warranties!
so it actually didn't cover $35k.
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  #142  
Old 05-04-2018, 07:23 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Yes Honda tends to be more reliable than BMW, but Honda seems to slip a bit lately due to all the fancy electronics on top-trim units.
Not sure where people establish a foundational basis for assessments like this. If you take say the latest JDPower VDS rating, BMW is placed higher than Honda.
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  #143  
Old 05-04-2018, 07:26 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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Depreciation is so high, so please please please get a full coverage extended warranty.
What does depreciation have anything to do with buying a full coverage extended warranty or vice versa? They are mutually exclusive issues.
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  #144  
Old 05-04-2018, 07:29 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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BMW's MSRP is a fascinating subject.

E.g. prevailing local market prices of F30 is 15-20% off MSRP. So why can't BMWNA drop their MSRP/invoice, and remove all incentives, to publish the true market price?

The issue probably is that prevailing/dynamic market prices are per local market. That by itself is creating yet another interesting dynamics, namely, customers from those rigid/non-robust markets reaching out nation-wide to grab those 15-20% off deals which are non-existent in their locales.

In my mind MSRP means nothing other than a frame of reference for comparison. Maybe a better reference than MSRP would be the BMWNA import price.
MSRP is not a reflection of market prices. However, incentives are/can be a function of market forces.
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  #145  
Old 05-04-2018, 07:33 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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all this machination over depreciation is rather useless. Cars for almost plurality are not an investment, they are depreciating asset. Buying a car based on how much it will or will not depreciate won't get you anywhere. Also, depreciation only matters when you are trying to sell the car. If you are worried about depreciation sometime in the future when you are going to sell the car, then you shouldn't be buying a new car, used car, or any car. Also, comparing depreciation of brand x vs depreciation of brand z is a useless endeavor, because they aren't the same thing.
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  #146  
Old 05-04-2018, 07:59 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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Not sure where people establish a foundational basis for assessments like this. If you take say the latest JDPower VDS rating, BMW is placed higher than Honda.
For apple to apple, the basis can probably be established by looking at VDS of, say, 2007 to 2017? In those years Honda has been ranked higher than BMW most of the time.
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  #147  
Old 05-04-2018, 10:49 AM
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eazy eazy is offline
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Originally Posted by namelessman View Post
For apple to apple, the basis can probably be established by looking at VDS of, say, 2007 to 2017? In those years Honda has been ranked higher than BMW most of the time.


According to consumer reports bmw is the 5th most reliable brand where as Honda is number 9. Acura on the other hand is the 9th least reliable brand. One of the big problems areas with Hondaís lately is with their transmissions. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...they-stack-up/


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  #148  
Old 05-04-2018, 11:07 AM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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According to consumer reports bmw is the 5th most reliable brand where as Honda is number 9. Acura on the other hand is the 9th least reliable brand. One of the big problems areas with Hondaís lately is with their transmissions. https://www.consumerreports.org/car-...they-stack-up/


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The CR data should be more accurate than JDPower VDS, which only look at 3-year old cars.

My hope is that my I4 does not generate as much heat as the I6, so all those pesky leaks in the engine bay can be lessened.
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  #149  
Old 05-04-2018, 01:43 PM
jwalz1 jwalz1 is offline
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Originally Posted by laser View Post
Honda S2000 ... purchased a 2007 one year pre-owned in 2008 for $28,000

No maintence costs other than oil changes

Sold 2014 for $28,000

Boom!
I had a similar experience. Bought a 2001 lease return for $21k, drove for 12 years, sold for $17.5k. If I still had it could probably get more, as they are sought after. I am hoping my Cayman with the last of the flat sixes in the model will do equally as well when I sell it right before going into the nursing home or hospice 30 years from now.


I am upset with the horrible depreciation as well and will never buy a new BMW again after purchasing just one, although the timing chain is also part of the decision too. I would be MUCH more forgiving if the timing chain coverage was 100,000 miles if you were the original purchaser of the car. Now I get to choose between selling or trading a car with a known defect, or spend $2,000 to replace what is supposed to be a lifetime part if I want to keep it long term.

With that said, part of the steep depreciation, if nobody has mentioned is sedans are not hot right now and their value has plummeted in comparison to crossovers or SUV's. If I had bought a BMW X3, my depreciation would be much less. Few people want used BMW's, but there is a much greater demand for the SUV's and weak market for sedans right now.
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Last edited by jwalz1; 05-04-2018 at 01:46 PM.
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  #150  
Old 05-04-2018, 02:46 PM
namelessman namelessman is offline
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I had a similar experience. Bought a 2001 lease return for $21k, drove for 12 years, sold for $17.5k.
Was that a Porsche? Hardly any BMW can achieve that feat.
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