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The sixth generation BMW 3 Series Sedan F30/F31/F34 and the first first generation 4 Series Coupe F32/F33/F36. Get the latest 3 and 4 series pricing from our ordering and pricing guide sticky thread.

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  #51  
Old 07-06-2019, 04:34 AM
jjhebigscreen jjhebigscreen is offline
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Originally Posted by rpickoff View Post
Depreciation is only'brutal' if you have to sell it in 18 months because you don't trust it to get you where you are going. Point is being missed that I could well afford the car, the maintenance and the expensive oil changes. What I couldn't reconcile was the AWFUL dealer experience, the ride that felt like a Flintstone Car and having to drive a relatively new car home in limp mode (car, not me) because of a failure that I got for all that money.
I know you had a ton of trouble with your car and that is a big bummer. However depreciation on these cars is brutal after 18 months, 36 months, 48 months etc.... Same thing with Mercedes and Audi.

Last edited by jjhebigscreen; 07-06-2019 at 04:39 AM.
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  #52  
Old 07-06-2019, 06:07 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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AP, does ‘OP’ stand for Original Poster or Old Poop? Having plans to build a 3-lift car repair shop in your house is not exactly a testimony to your faith in BMW reliability!!***128540; Only teasing. Nice to meet you all, I’m glad I could afford the luxury of trying a BMW and, most of all, getting rid of it. As the French say: “à chacun son gôut”
Yeah, "original poster." Remember Ocean Pacific clothing? … with "OP" on everything.

Three bays, just one lift and that's mostly for storage. Actually, I'm intrigued by portable Quick Jack's for doing tire rotations and brake work. We're moving to the foothills of the Smokey Mountains. So, we'll be wearing out brakes more than we do here in Floriduh.

If construction costs are manageable, I'm also going to have a detached one-holer. That could be for whoever rents a future basement apartment.

I currently have access to a fully equipped automotive shop where I used to work. But, I'll lose that when we move.

At 59k miles, the only problems with my 2014 535i has been corroded exhaust tips and the driver's inside door latch is occasionally acting up (will not unlock the door when pulled twice). But, it hasn't acted up since the weather got hot. I bet it will come back in the winter, though. This is the second most trouble-free car I've ever owned, behind Frau Putzer's 2006 Honda Accord.

Most of my happy time in my new garage will be washing, waxing, Armor-All-ing, and Endurance-ing. "Autoputzer" is German for "car washer." The garage will be insulated, heated, AC-ed, and Bay #1 will have a drain in the floor and extra lighting for 24/7/365 car washing.

"Auto" means "self." "Putz" in Yiddish means to play or act ineffectively. So, "Autoputzer" could also mean "one who plays with himself." Let's go with "car washer."
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  #53  
Old 07-06-2019, 06:23 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Originally Posted by dzlbimmer View Post
Realizing that the operative word here is "most", it's also important to realize that many people just don't know how to care for cars despite their best efforts or intentions or situations.
I've usually found myself purchasing as nice a car as I can find, but none of the enthusiast stuff has been done that we talk about here in the forums. So I chip away at that stuff and the next owner is usually the first person that comes to look at it after I post it for sale. Basic rule of thumb, use high quality parts and fluids, try to catch issues early, and batch your jobs to save on labor time (while you're in there type thinking). Professional mechanics laugh when this comes up in conversation, but some of those guys are like wizards and get paid hourly or book time.

Back to the original subject matter, one of the reasons first year values are so low is because of the rental fleets and damaged cars dumped back in to the market. Oh, no checkbox for prior rental on the kbb app? You don't say...
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Originally Posted by jjhebigscreen View Post
I think there are always going to be people that dont take care of any brand car in year 1, year 2 and over the life of the car. This is why Buying lightly used is far more work but worth it when it comes to future depreciation. You really need to do your due diligence and find a solid well maintained ( with receipts) car that has the options you want. These type of cars are out there. You need to be disciplined and pass on questionable cars even when they have the right options and price. You need proof they where well maintained and should always do a pre purchase inspection at a well regarded dealer with good reviews. The process can take time but in the end is well worth it. Very rewarding when you end up with a great car for 40% or more off sticker.
I know two millionaires who only buy used cars.

I've never found anybody with a "short automotive attention span" who takes exceptionally good car of their cars. There are older cars around that have been taken exceptionally good car of, though. The catch is that their owners' friends, relatives, and co-workers are waiting in line for their cars. I have people waiting for my cars when I'm done with them. I have six people waiting for my 535i, including the buyer of my previous BMW. I even have people waiting for my 2007 Chevy Cobalt.

I had a co-worker who'd buy a copy of Auto Trader when the new issue came out on Thursdays. He'd circle promising cars and go shopping on Saturdays. He'd probably look at 100 cars before buying one. But, that 100th car was an absolute creampuff. This was his hobby. He'd go car shopping even if he didn't need a car. He enjoyed visiting with people. It got to the point where his friends would "placed orders" with him, asking him to find them a pick-up, SUV, sedan, etc.
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  #54  
Old 07-06-2019, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
There are older cars around that have been taken exceptionally good car of, though. The catch is that their owners' friends, relatives, and co-workers are waiting in line for their cars. I have people waiting for my cars when I'm done with them. I have six people waiting for my 535i, including the buyer of my previous BMW. I even have people waiting for my 2007 Chevy Cobalt.
Yea verily. That's why E39 M5 owners are hard to deal with.
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  #55  
Old 07-07-2019, 04:04 AM
rpickoff rpickoff is offline
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Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post

"Auto" means "self." "Putz" in Yiddish means to play or act ineffectively. So, "Autoputzer" could also mean "one who plays with himself." Let's go with "car washer."
There is nothing wrong with “putzing around with autos” as an alternative definition. I would avoid going down the rabbit hole of other definitions of ‘putz’. You will get to a place more unpleasant and intimidating than the waiting area around your BMW service desk.
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  #56  
Old 07-07-2019, 04:21 AM
John in VA John in VA is offline
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Yeah, "original poster." Remember Ocean Pacific clothing? … with "OP" on everything.
...We're moving to the foothills of the Smokey Mountains.
OP is still around, as is Hang Ten.
It's the Smoky Mountains - don't wait for the locals to correct you!
I enjoy your car-related posts - thanks for the time you take to share & educate us!
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  #57  
Old 07-07-2019, 05:02 AM
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LarryboysUDM LarryboysUDM is offline
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Originally Posted by rpickoff View Post
AP, does 'OP' stand for Original Poster or Old Poop? Having plans to build a 3-lift car repair shop in your house is not exactly a testimony to your faith in BMW reliability!!***128540; Only teasing. Nice to meet you all, I'm glad I could afford the luxury of trying a BMW and, most of all, getting rid of it. As the French say: "à chacun son gôut"
I get where you are coming from. I do and I don't understand the BMW depreciation (I paid 55K on mine and now it's barely 15K); aye on the dealership experience, ditto on the RFTs, and for what it's worth we expect a little more return from these BMWs. What car did you get after the BMW?

My BMW experience is a bit more favorable. I think my 2013 335i that I've had new since 2012 with almost 94,000 miles is probably on it's last legs. I want to keep it but I may need to let it go soon. I could afford it but I just could stomach paying that much for fixes. I even changed the oil cooler and oil filter housing gaskets myself. I drew the line on the valve cover gasket job. I have trust issues now because of the drivetrain malfunction from the bad fuel injector that stranded us last April. I just have a bad feeling that I'll get more of those DTMs in the near future.
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Last edited by LarryboysUDM; 07-07-2019 at 05:04 AM.
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  #58  
Old 07-07-2019, 05:03 AM
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Doug Huffman Doug Huffman is online now
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Originally Posted by rpickoff View Post
there is nothing wrong with "putzing around with autos" as an alternative definition. I would avoid going down the rabbit hole of other definitions of 'putz'.
lol. +1.

To refresh my recollection of my childhood vernacular, I checked with G00gle Translate. You can too.
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Last edited by Doug Huffman; 07-07-2019 at 05:19 AM.
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  #59  
Old 07-07-2019, 05:41 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Originally Posted by rpickoff View Post
There is nothing wrong with “putzing around with autos” as an alternative definition. I would avoid going down the rabbit hole of other definitions of ‘putz’. You will get to a place more unpleasant and intimidating than the waiting area around your BMW service desk.
After we were married, somebody asked Frau Putzer what my hobbies were. Golf? Fishing? Tennis? Woodworking, etc.?

"It's the damnedest thing. His only hobbies seem to be accounting and washing cars. But, our finances are in order and we'll eventually be able to retire without being greaters at Walmart... and it sure is nice driving a clean car."

A psych' major once told me that a key to mental health is to have a sense of accomplishment multiple times a day. Washing a car will do that. When I was working, my tasks took one to two years to complete. That can drive you crazy.
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  #60  
Old 07-07-2019, 12:49 PM
rpickoff rpickoff is offline
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Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
After we were married, somebody asked Frau Putzer what my hobbies were. Golf? Fishing? Tennis? Woodworking, etc.?

"It's the damnedest thing. His only hobbies seem to be accounting and washing cars. But, our finances are in order and we'll eventually be able to retire without being greaters at Walmart... and it sure is nice driving a clean car."

A psych' major once told me that a key to mental health is to have a sense of accomplishment multiple times a day. Washing a car will do that. When I was working, my tasks took one to two years to complete. That can drive you crazy.

Agree about washing the car..... nothing like it
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  #61  
Old 07-07-2019, 06:12 PM
bmwexpat bmwexpat is offline
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Washing a car can be therapeutic, but it also depends if you are washing your daily driver or a garage queen. IN either case there are some great You Tube videos on how to correctly wash a car without causing scratches or water spots.

IN the past couple of years I've become a big fan of using a pressure washer along with foam guns for both washing and waxing the daily drivers. The garage queens a re a bit different as while they do not see any weather, washing is a much more detailed process along with clay baring and polishing with a high end orbital happens at least one a year.

Regarding the previous depreciation discussion. BMW's are OK cars but no longer the best in class. Also, BMW is now a volume producers and especially the 3 series in now a "belly Button car".... everyone has one.
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  #62  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:29 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by bmwexpat View Post
Washing a car can be therapeutic, but it also depends if you are washing your daily driver or a garage queen. IN either case there are some great You Tube videos on how to correctly wash a car without causing scratches or water spots.

IN the past couple of years I've become a big fan of using a pressure washer along with foam guns for both washing and waxing the daily drivers. The garage queens a re a bit different as while they do not see any weather, washing is a much more detailed process along with clay baring and polishing with a high end orbital happens at least one a year.

Regarding the previous depreciation discussion. BMW's are OK cars but no longer the best in class. Also, BMW is now a volume producers and especially the 3 series in now a "belly Button car".... everyone has one.
And this has been the case for the 3 series for 25+ years. It’s a shame that the 3 series has gone soft but it’s just a car, not a classic. BMW has been selling 100,000 plus annually for the last few decades.
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  #63  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by bmwexpat View Post
Regarding the previous depreciation discussion. BMW's are OK cars but no longer the best in class. Also, BMW is now a volume producers and especially the 3 series in now a "belly Button car".... everyone has one.
Agree others have caught up and actually exceeded in some areas.

As for being a "belly button" car, I think it really depends on location. They are far more common on the coasts. Where I'm located, I'll only see a couple on a daily basis.

This can be seen in the resale prices for BMW cars. The good, cheep ones all seem to be in California where the market is really flooded and they become more scarce and more expensive as you move towards the middle of the US. BMW SUV's are different. There seem to be far more and fairly consistant in their prices and distribution. I experienced this first hand while shopping for my 4 series.

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Originally Posted by Michael Schott View Post
It’s a shame that the 3 series has gone soft but it’s just a car, not a classic. BMW has been selling 100,000 plus annually for the last few decades.
So very true.

In addition to the volume, I've also heard BMW's lease rates also hurt depreciation. BMW uses higher than realistic residual values used to incentivise movement of new vehicles which then leads to a glut of near-new vehicles coming off lease. All these cars need to be priced at a level in which they will sell on the used/CPO market and therefore the massive depreciation. Not sure how true that is, but it's a theory I've heard/read more than once.

I also wonder if the huge demand for SUV's and trucks is driving the depreciate rates too. Cars are steadily harder to sell, and declining demand is taking it's toll.
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  #64  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:19 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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The last stat's I saw were that ~57% of new BMW's in the U.S. are leased, and the rate is higher for the smaller ones. Some of them get bought by the leasers, but a whole lot more of them flood onto the used car market. The sweet spot (lowest monthly payments) for BMW leases are actually 36 months, even though they offer 48 months leases. They want the cars back with a year of factory warranty left on them.

My 2014 535i depreciated down to 46% of MSRP in three years (37.5k miles), down to 37% of MSRP in four years (50.5k miles), and down to 29% in five years (57k miles). It will be down to around 15% of MSRP by the time I'm done with it (eight or nine years, 100k miles). Mine's a little worse than average because it's a larger BMW, a sedan, and it's loaded with options.

Last edited by Autoputzer; 07-08-2019 at 09:21 AM.
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  #65  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:51 AM
bimmerbingo bimmerbingo is offline
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Originally Posted by Autoputzer View Post
The last stat's I saw were that ~57% of new BMW's in the U.S. are leased, and the rate is higher for the smaller ones. Some of them get bought by the leasers, but a whole lot more of them flood onto the used car market. The sweet spot (lowest monthly payments) for BMW leases are actually 36 months, even though they offer 48 months leases. They want the cars back with a year of factory warranty left on them.

My 2014 535i depreciated down to 46% of MSRP in three years (37.5k miles), down to 37% of MSRP in four years (50.5k miles), and down to 29% in five years (57k miles). It will be down to around 15% of MSRP by the time I'm done with it (eight or nine years, 100k miles). Mine's a little worse than average because it's a larger BMW, a sedan, and it's loaded with options.
What I've learned after having traded my last loaded Bmw is that options add very little value to a car, so now I understand why a lot of bmw owners spec theirs without navigation and other options such as 360 cameras, m brakes etc, blind spot monitoring etc. I now start to question the need to have it serviced at the dealer at all only so it shows up as 'well maintained' on the carfax report. The dealer definitely doesn't give a damn about this and probably 3rd parties either of you can provide service records.
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  #66  
Old 07-08-2019, 09:55 AM
imtjm imtjm is offline
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wow, such a long thread considering OP got rid of the car.

the sweet spot is 36mo, also because that is normally the cross over period where the car's fictitious depreciated value most equals the car's fictitious resale value. Depreciation % based on MSRP, is a meaningless number, unless you paid MSRP. Chances are, if you aren't my mom, the sale price was something lower than MSRP.
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  #67  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:05 PM
rpickoff rpickoff is offline
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wow, such a long thread considering op got rid of the car.

The sweet spot is 36mo, also because that is normally the cross over period where the car's fictitious depreciated value most equals the car's fictitious resale value. Depreciation % based on msrp, is a meaningless number, unless you paid msrp. Chances are, if you aren't my mom, the sale price was something lower than msrp.

op out!
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  #68  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:57 PM
CoyoteZak CoyoteZak is offline
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I still am a buy with cash and hold guy. I know the first 3 years are brutal but after that I am in reasonably priced used car, equipped exactly how I want and I know exactly how it was driven, maintained, washed and stored...and by who. If you aren't going to hang on past year 3 you may as well rent (lease).

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  #69  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:11 PM
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My brother bought a new '17 540 for $74000. He just sold it 6 months ago for $42K. New cars make one want to practice stretching to be ready for an ankle grab.
In other words, a 3-model-years-old car retained 56.75% of it's value.

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Originally Posted by Desertnate View Post
In addition to the volume, I've also heard BMW's lease rates also hurt depreciation. BMW uses higher than realistic residual values used to incentivize movement of new vehicles which then leads to a glut of near-new vehicles coming off lease. All these cars need to be priced at a level in which they will sell on the used/CPO market and therefore the massive depreciation. Not sure how true that is, but it's a theory I've heard/read more than once.
The conventional wisdom was that, in the good old days of leasing, BMWFS subvented (subsidized) leases by artificially inflating the residual values. Examples:
  • The residual value on my 2014 535i (3 years, 45,000 miles) was 59%.
  • The residual value on my 2017 540i (3 years, 45,000 miles) was also 59%.
  • The residual value on my son's 2018 340i (3 years, 45,000 miles) was 58%

All of these seem pretty much in line with the real world experience of CliffT's friend, donchathink? Yet CliffT's friend thinks his depreciation was excessive, while the anti-leasing folks think BMWFS is cooking the books with funny math. Folks, you can't have it both ways!

With regard to the "glut of almost new vehicles" coming off lease. Why is this in any way a bad thing? BMW serial lessees (like me) turn over cars every three years. And every three years we are cross-shopping the competition, which I'd like to think keeps BMW AG on their toes. They have to stay on top of their game to keep winning our business. I'd argue that benefits ALL of us, the serial lessee's and the CPO buyers alike.

The alternative is the guy (or gal) who wants to buy a new, demo, or lightly used car and drive it into the ground. Nothing wrong with that. But why does a business model designed to benefit the Putzers of this world work better for the rest of us than the current model?

If anything, this thread drives home to me that leasing is the way to go. From where I sit, I don't give a rat's patoot about whether my 540 retains more or less of its value than the 58% in my lease. That's someone else's problem. With major disruptors in the auto industry (think Tesla) and the head of BMW AG resigning due to falling sales, the last thing I'd want to do right now is sink $70,000 of my capital into a new 540 (or $40,000 of my capital into a CPO 540), not knowing where the industry will be a year from now or a decade from now.

If you guys want to play that game, more power to you. I'm too busy enjoying a succession of new cars, with shiny new bells and whistles every 3 years.
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  #70  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:45 PM
zod zod is offline
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It's all depends which problem you're solving for. I made my last car payment in 1983 and never played the interest game again. That was for a 69 350/350 Corvette. Driven well, but not into the ground. I sold it after 27 years because it no longer fit an old man's back. Made money on it too.

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  #71  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:32 PM
bmwexpat bmwexpat is offline
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The discussion around depreciation and leasing vs. buying is always an interesting discussion as there is no absolute right or wrong answer. It all depends on an individuals circumstances, needs and income.

If you own a business and can have the company lease your car, it makes financial sense as the lease payments are a 100% expense and can help lower a tax bill. As an individual, I agree that i love serial leasers . Personally, I have not bought a "new" vehicle since 2007 and even that was for my son and not me. I love to buy that 2-3 year old vehicle for almost half price from a list price of $50 to 80K and keep it for several years or until I get tired of it. To me, I'm driving a higher end luxury vehicle with 400- 500 HP for the same cost as a Honda Accord or Camry. Along the way, I've kept a couple of the more special cars and now they are garage queens that have and will continue to appreciate in value. For the past few years it's also great not to have any car payments for any of the 4 vehicles that are part of our fleet.

To me the other issue with leasing is unless you are making truly serious money, you are never going to justify affording to lease the truly fun cars from AMG, BMW M, Audi RS or a Porsche GT car. Most people lease what they can afford and that seems to be the middle of the road models in any of the German brands. Yup it new but overall nobody notices as it just blends in with the hundreds of similar cars that are on the road with you.

Trust me it's much more fun to head down the road in a 15 to 40+ year old car that is truly unique and gets reactions such as " I used to have one of those, but I sold it" OMG I wish I still had that car but I could never afford to buy that car today.

Just saying this works for me.
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  #72  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:40 PM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Location: NW Floriduh
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
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Mein Auto: 2014 535i + 2018 X3 30i
O.k. That's it. That monkeyazz duck's called me out. So, I'm going to whip it out... my spreadsheet, that is.

Here's the actual cost data for my 2014 535i for the first five years, and project costs for the next four years. The important metric is "MDI&P:" the sum of maintenance, deprecation, interest, and property tax." Buying and keeping nine years will save me about $25k over leasing a new 5-whatever-i every three years.

I'm budgeting $0.20/mile for scheduled maintenance and repairs in the post-warranty out years. So far, I'm way under budget. My F10 535i has been almost Honda-like as far as repairs have gone so far. Cars don't last forever, though. Our current BMW's will be sold the morning after they hit 100k miles.

I've tracked the annual deprecation and maintenance costs for my cars for literally decades. That's how I became militant about buying and keeping my cars to around 100k miles. I also get to keep my properly hard German seat cushions (gone with the G30) and manual transmission (gone with F10's built after February 28th, 2014). My 535i was built on February 21st, 2014.

My annual mileage can vary greatly. Leasing doesn't handle that well.

On Planet Putzer having an older car in good shape is a status symbol, a sign of diligence and intelligence. The converse of that is also true. I only know one person who leases a BMW. We laugh at him. Actually, we laugh at him for a lot of other reasons too. I took him up to Spartanburg to pick up his M235i. We hit Chipotle Grill that evening. There was a smokin' hottie in line behind us, but she refused to make eye contact with my buddy. So, my buddy Clint decided to stand on one leg and fart as loud and as hard as he could. She made eye contact with him then. The look on the hottie's face was the highlight of the trip up there.
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Last edited by Autoputzer; 07-08-2019 at 09:38 PM.
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  #73  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:53 AM
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Desertnate Desertnate is offline
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Location: St Louis
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 5,603
Mein Auto: '16 435i
[QUOTE=bmwexpat;13048775] also great not to have any car payments for any of the 4 vehicles that are part of our fleet. [quote]

I too like the idea of not having a car payment and owning a vehicle outright. I'll own vehicles and drive them until they are no longer financially responsible. These days that's a LONG time.

Quote:
To me the other issue with leasing is unless you are making truly serious money, you are never going to justify affording to lease the truly fun cars from AMG, BMW M, Audi RS or a Porsche GT car. Most people lease what they can afford and that seems to be the middle of the road models in any of the German brands. Yup it new but overall nobody notices as it just blends in with the hundreds of similar cars that are on the road with you.
I agree. In my area, BMW's aren't very common and new ones even less so. The new ones are always minimal spec with the smaller engine due to the cost of even the lease. I'd be somewhere in that same relm if I would have gone with a lease and not want to be "car poor".

I've leased one car before and the thing which bothered me the most was the mileage caps. It really kept me from truly enjoying the car. If I did nothing but my daily commute and normal excursions across town, I was always safely under my annual mileage limits. Any sort of spontaneous weekend road trip or even a morning blasting down a good, twisty backroad would put you over in an area where anything worth doing which is non-local is easily 200+ miles away. I could have gone with a higher mileage cap, but the lease tearms were really not very good. They obviously favored the middle-road of mileage.

Quote:
Trust me it's much more fun to head down the road in a 15 to 40+ year old car that is truly unique and gets reactions such as " I used to have one of those, but I sold it" OMG I wish I still had that car but I could never afford to buy that car today.
It's amazing how many times you hear that at Car's and Coffee regardless of the age of the car.
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  #74  
Old 07-09-2019, 06:53 AM
Autoputzer Autoputzer is offline
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Location: NW Floriduh
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 8,412
Mein Auto: 2014 535i + 2018 X3 30i
I'm philosophically opposed to car loans, except for one's first appliance car. But with the $500 credit for financing and 1.9% interest rate, even I financed our most recent BMW. I bought a 2.3% CD with the "car money."

I actually put the remaining cost of the car, about 10%, on my BMW FS Visa card, earning 4% rebates. So, like in the VW commercials, I did a "sign and drive." The BMW FS Visa card rewards description says 4% rebates at "BMW Centers." But, down in the fine print it says you get that at any car dealership. I get a special price on GM cars. So, my beaters are always GM cars bought new. I'm due for a new one next spring. I'm going to put a lot of it on my BMW FS Visa, too.
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  #75  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:31 AM
n1das n1das is offline
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Location: Nashua, NH, USA
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,043
Mein Auto: 14 535d Xdrive, 12 X5 35d
I have never leased a car but have been a habitual trader many years ago. I keep my cars much longer now out of necessity and because the more I drive them the more I want to keep them forever.

I am currently in year 6 with my 2014 535dx (ordered July 1, 2013, delivered August 14, 2013) at only 127k miles and climbing. I am in year 5 with my 2012 X5 35d at only 219k miles and climbing. I previously owned VW TDIs (diesel) prior to my BMW diesel ownership.

The X5 35d was a CPO in 2014 at 52k miles. The first owner threw a perfectly good car away as soon as the factory warranty and free maintenance ended. The first owner probably was afraid to keep a car past warranty. It worked out good for me as a CPO. Both cars have been very reliable. My long highway commute and spirited driving style might have something to do with it.

Both cars are long term keepers (10+ years) and won't be for sale anytime soon. They have already proven themselves to be good for the long haul. I am not at all worried about depreciation, resale value, or warranties. They won't owe me anything by the time I'm done with them. It's a good thing resale value doesn't matter when you buy and keep forever. Cars are not like rare paintings.

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